Started My HCG Protocol

[Vettester]

As mentioned in some previous posts, my doctor has me on a cycled HRT program. Here is my schedule:

Week 1-12 ....Test C, 200mg/wk
Week 14 ....... HCG 1/2cc every day for 10 consecutive days.
Anastrozole is also used, 0.5mg (Mon, Wed, Fri) on Week 4-12.

I am currently on my 3rd day of HCG injections, which I inject in the lower stomach area with a 30g x 5/16" syringe. I will finish out my 10th and final injection next Saturday night, then I will jump back on the Testosterone C on the following Friday, which will commence the start of my new cycle. My doctor believes that it is important that the body gets a break for approx. one (1) month from the Test C. The HCG helps with testicular revitalization, and as my doctor stated, it will help to keep me from crashing while off of the Test C. I've been through the crash before, and all of us who have been through it knows that it is a terrible ordeal to go through.

At this point, I can report that everything is going A-OK. I am not feeling any symptoms of the crashes, nor am I feeling any adverse conditions with the HCG. It's been a little over two weeks since the last Test injection, so this is still in the early stages. My workouts are still good, and I'm currently mixing it up with a higher repetition program, and a lot more cardio. While on this break, I'm looking to drop from 12.5% BF into the 11's. I've seen where HCG is used by people just for dieting purposes alone. I will keep an eye on any extra value that it might provide. I will also be starting a round of liquid clen on Monday for two weeks.

I'll keep you guys posted with any changes, updates, etc. JPKMAN, I know you were kind of interested with this topic, so hopefully some of this will be beneficial for you and anyone looking to incorporate HCG into the routine.

[subnet]

vetteman - really interested to see your progress during this! Curious as to whether you've used the clen before, and if you experienced any side effects? I'm guessing you're using it just to help cut your BF?

[Vettester]

vetteman - really interested to see your progress during this! Curious as to whether you've used the clen before, and if you experienced any side effects? I'm guessing you're using it just to help cut your BF?

Yeah, I did it late Sept./early Oct., and it's not anything to be taken lightly. I started out before with just 40mcg and it had me bouncing off the wall. As I stepped it up a little and my body got used to it, the sides dissipated to where it was manageable. One thing I do know, I will be taking it earlier in the morning, drinking lots of water with it, and I have plenty of Taurine on hand.

[zaggahamma]

yes definately subscribed and following this thread.....didnt know you were gonna throw clen into the mix good luck gettin to 11%....thats where i want to be

[ythrashin]

I think your doctor is wrong...

Most others I know on HRT/TRT just run HCG weekly with along with the Test.Its part of their TRT/HRT protocol and its ran year round or close to it.

How many IU's of HCG you injecting? ML's with HCG tells us nothing since it can change with the amount of water that added and how many IU's of freeze dried HCG you started with.

BTW...HCG for weight loss is all bullshit.

[flatscat]

I don't think his Doc is wrong - just doing something a little different than what you have read on this board. My old clinic did things this way - it makes some sense if you really think about it.

I think you will be fine, have some large boys, and ready for the t again soon Vette.

[zaggahamma]

I don't think his Doc is wrong - just doing something a little different than what you have read on this board. My old clinic did things this way - it makes some sense if you really think about it.

I think you will be fine, have some large boys, and ready for the t again soon Vette.

i agree...i like the approach and will look forward to vette keeping us up to date

[ythrashin]

Why is this HCG protocol not a good idea? Well, not using HCG for a prolonged period of time will desensitize your leydig cells and also mega dosing like I believe you are will desensitize your leydig cells also.

Running a low dose of HCG all the time will also help regulate other hormones.
LH/HCG stimulates the side chain cleavage enzyme P450scc which is involved in converting cholesterol to pregnenolone which then is used to make progesterone,DHEA and androsta-5,16-dien-3 beta-ol by 16-ene synthetase. It will also help keep your boys from shrinking to the size of peas all the time.

I despise seeing illogical/misuse use of substances.

Read this.



HCG - Unraveled
Eric Potratz
HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz
Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders.
PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use . Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.
HCG unraveled –
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.
When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin -like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.
Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due toprolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.
One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation.Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)
To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)
Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!
The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids . (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20




In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.
Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)
Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.
If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)
Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.
Recap –
For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

References -
1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466–495
2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.
3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)
4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.
5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.
6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.
7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003
8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic /anabolic steroids in power athletes
Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)
9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate .
Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201–203
10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282–287
11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583–590 (1973)
12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.
Catt KJ, et al

[ythrashin]

I don't think his Doc is wrong - just doing something a little different than what you have read on this board. My old clinic did things this way - it makes some sense if you really think about it.

I think you will be fine, have some large boys, and ready for the t again soon Vette.

Makes no sense... it goes against all logic... He's using HCG basically as a PCT.

[Vettester]

I think your doctor is wrong...

Most others I know on HRT/TRT just run HCG weekly with along with the Test.Its part of their TRT/HRT protocol and its ran year round or close to it.

How many IU's of HCG you injecting? ML's with HCG tells us nothing since it can change with the amount of water that added and how many IU's of freeze dried HCG you started with.

BTW...HCG for weight loss is all bullshit.

11,000 inside the vile mixed with just a little more than 5cc of water. My doctor is only one of the most sought out doctors in the world for HRT, and has lectured on numerous occasions at UCLA, and at HRT conferences from the US to Vienna, Austria. I presume you have supporting credentials to debate my doctor's prescription?

The weekly injection program does indeed seem to be the norm with most who are using HCG. Like I mentioned, this regiment is for keeping me from seeing any crashing while off of Test. Last time I went off of Test, I went down to 195 Total Test in short time. He is also counting on this helping with any atrophy issues that maybe starting, or for testicular health in general. My doc feels that the body needs a break and change from everything we do to make it function optimally. Kind of makes sense, as for we do it with our diets, we mix up our workout routines, and just about everything else so that we don't go stagnant and get caught in any ruts.

And BTW, I don't appreciate your vulgarity on this thread. If you have facts, then spell them out. I don't have all the facts, so I'm just reporting this protocol as it plays out for me. Just look up HCG on YouTube and you'll find all sorts of videos pertaining to people using this stuff for weight loss and diet purposes. This is not my objective, but like I said, I will report it if it adds any extra value above and beyond what it is being used for. I hope this tells you something!

[Vettester]

Makes no sense... it goes against all logic... He's using HCG basically as a PCT.

Yes, exactly, it is being used like a PCT.

[ythrashin]

You are shooting 1100iu's of HCG per day...LOL
So you are mega dosing HCG! Dude read the article I posted.. I guess you missed it. There are other articles I'll post later if I have time. Your doc's way of thinking is old school. There is a lot of data that goes against this way of thinking. HCG is clinically proven to cause desensitization of leydig cells when its mega dosed and also leydig cells not being exposed to LH/HCG will do the same... Its there in black and white.

BTW...HCG for weight loss is bullpoopy!!

That better?^^^

[ythrashin]

Yes, exactly, it is being used like a PCT.

Try doing some research on your own.

[Vettester]

Try doing some research on your own.

Why you trolling this man? Sounds like you've got some background on HCG and could offer some input for everyone to learn from, but you just come in swinging and kicking, and throw the whole thing out without any benefit of the doubt to be considered. JPKMAN and a few others wanted to hear about this, partially because I think it is a little different and goes against some of the traditional HCG usages.

You told me to do my own research ... I was just agreeing with you, that's all. Like I said, YOU"RE RIGHT, if someone looks at this protocol it would be very parallel to what some might see as a PCT. In fact, my doctor pretty much says it's a therapy that is associated with my HRT program.

Anyway, I don't know if this will work, or not, or kind of, but I'm hoping to learn something here and pass it on. However, I can pretty much say that I'm through here! You win.

[ythrashin]

Using HCG in a PCT protocol is old school bro'. Its been tried and tested and its not the optimal way to use it.That method was once "traditional".

Thats why the preferred method is to run it during a cycle or during TRT. "Cruising or blasting...."

Thats the whole point I'm trying to make. ^^

If you do some research you'll see that there is plenty of evidence that shows that using HCG in PCT is the "wrong" way to go about things. The optimal way to run it is at a small dose to keep the testes working. Doing this will also prevent atrophy in the first place.

Sorry if you think I'm trolling or whatever. Just trying to get you to "see the light."

[zaggahamma]

You are shooting 1100iu's of HCG per day...LOL
So you are mega dosing HCG! Dude read the article I posted.. I guess you missed it. There are other articles I'll post later if I have time. Your doc's way of thinking is old school. There is a lot of data that goes against this way of thinking. HCG is clinically proven to cause desensitization of leydig cells when its mega dosed and also leydig cells not being exposed to LH/HCG will do the same... Its there in black and white.

BTW...HCG for weight loss is bullpoopy!!

That better?^^^

what does this desinsitization cause

[ythrashin]

It makes it so your leydig cells need more LH/HCG to become stimulated to get them to tell your testes to make the same amount of Testosterone normally produced before they were damaged.

It will eventually take more and more HCG to get the desired effects if this protocol is used.

[zaggahamma]

It makes it so your leydig cells need more LH/HCG to become stimulated to get them to tell your testes to make the same amount of Testosterone normally produced before they were damaged.

It will eventually take more and more HCG to get the desired effects if this protocol is used.

interesting and never administering hcg during an extended period of exo test would kill the leydigs as well (this would have to apply to me...+3 years on trt)....so at some point hcg may not have any benefit at all?
what i'd like to know is how does testosterone and fertility relate....being on trt is supposed to cause infertility....how exactly does this happen...u mention the testes not producing enough test...where exactly is the correlation between testosterone(levels/production) and fertility? testosterone/fertility(sperm)...i've never seen this correlation addressed

[ythrashin]

Depends on the individual... Mega dosing HCG causes more damage to Leydig cells then not being exposed to it. Being shut down for a long time without administering HCG may take more to get them running again, take longer to get them to tell your testes to produce Test and may be permanently damaged.

Well maintaining fertility I'm not to sure about...but running TRT shuts down your natural Testosterone production by causing negative feedback. Your body sees that there is enough Testosterone present so your body stops producing LH which tells your Testes to produce testosterone and sperm. I do know there are some other hormones that need to be at a certain balance along with Testosterone to produce viable sperm. Those being LH,FSH and HMG....

I've read to improve your chances of being fertile while on TRT its best to run a combo of HMG(human menopause gonadotropin) and HCG.

HCG- LH and HMG
HMG-LH and FSH

HMG raises FSH and mimics LH also like HCG. HCG helps increase HMG....

[zaggahamma]

Depends on the individual... Mega dosing HCG causes more damage to Leydig cells then not being exposed to it. Being shut down for a long time without administering HCG may take more to get them running again, take longer to get them to tell your testes to produce Test and may be permanently damaged.

Well maintaining fertility I'm not to sure about...but running TRT shuts down your natural Testosterone production by causing negative feedback. Your body sees that there is enough Testosterone present so your body stops producing LH which tells your Testes to produce testosterone and sperm. I do know there are some other hormones that need to be at a certain balance along with Testosterone to produce viable sperm. Those being LH,FSH and HMG....

I've read to improve your chances of being fertile while on TRT its best to run a combo of HMG(human menopause gonadotropin) and HCG.

HCG- LH and HMG
HMG-LH and FSH

HMG raises FSH and mimics LH also like HCG. HCG helps increase HMG....

thanks...this post has branched out a little...

[marcus300]

If you use around 125-250ius about 3 times a week this will maintain testicular function and size, if you use more than this amount your can cause an increase in estrogen which in many cases causes more problems, especially if you trying to recover. Also using larger amount will desensitize your leydig cells which is something you dont want to be happening.

What I dont understand here is why your Endo told you to come off your HRT and just follow a HCG protocol, are you trying to recover and come off HRT or is this a part of the HRT method and your going to go back on after you have implemented your HCG?

[Vettester]

If you use around 125-250ius about 3 times a week this will maintain testicular function and size, if you use more than this amount your can cause an increase in estrogen which in many cases causes more problems, especially if you trying to recover. Also using larger amount will desensitize your leydig cells which is something you dont want to be happening.

What I dont understand here is why your Endo told you to come off your HRT and just follow a HCG protocol, are you trying to recover and come off HRT or is this a part of the HRT method and your going to go back on after you have implemented your HCG?

Marcus, thanks for the information ... Much appreciated! My doctor's objective is to give my body about a one month break from the Test C. My last test injection was Oct. 30. My doc had me wait two (2) weeks, then start the HCG program. Once finished with that, I will wait a week and start back up with the injections, or call it Nov. 27.

There's obviously a lot of variables with all of this, but the main benefit my doctor is expressing to me is that my body can get some rest and recovery from the test, and the HCG will keep me from crashing or losing any ground with my workouts, activities, etc. I know last time my test levels dropped, I felt catabolic and actually went backwards with my gains.

I hope people understand that I'm not the doctor here, nor am I just some noob playing Wheel of Fortune with some gear cycle. Every step I take at this point is under counsel of my doctor (with exception to the Clen ). If this is something that should really be challenged, then I'll gladly present some opposing evidence to my doctor. I'll be taking some blood work next week too, so that might be interesting as well.

Thanks again Marcus, I'm going to see if I can't get some quick answers from the doctor about some of these various concerns that have been posted.

[Merc.]

I recently posted about this .. I just copied and pasted my response below from a diffrent thread from the other day..( about HCG in pct )..


HCG suppressive nature is blocked when using nolva with it .. The suppressive nature of HCG is due to HCG blocking the conversion of 17 ohp into test ( which nolva blocks this suppressive nature) .. If you look up desensitize and leydig on pubmed you will see that desensitization is not caused by PKC , and therefore is likely to be caused by HCG's effects on 17 OHP , and those effects from HCG are blocked by nolva.. There are studies that show that pre exposure to normal lh is necessary for hcg leydig cell desensitization.. it is not going to effect someone whos lh level is low becuase they are coming off a cycle( which it would be low ) .. Also any suppression form the estrogen engendered by the hcg is going to be halted by the aromasin ...

So if you dont use high doses for long periods of time , hcg is actually pretty good in pct ( when combined with nolva and aromasin like i posted above).. I will say i do feel it is best to use hcg on pct if 1) it wasnt incorporated in your cycle 2) if you had atrophy during your cycle..

Heres a study showing that nolva blocks hcg effects on 17 ohp ..

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

PMID: 7419679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE



There are studies that show that pre exposure to normal LH levels would be necessary for HCG induced leydig desensitization .. When a guy comes off of a cycle his LH is going to be low ( so it woundnt be a problem ... you just dont wanna use hcg for too long ).. Also other studies i have reviewed show that HCG doesnt have a direct effect on LH release ... rather it works by inhibiting it indirectly by stimulating test production ( and activating negative feed back loop).. So if you dont use too high of a dose .. and you dont use it for very long periods of time it is not going to be a concern ( and can be very helpful ) keep in mind I only like hcg in pct if you had testicular atrophy while on cycle ..

The problem with the HCG begin used in pct is the down regulation of the leydig LH receptor ( which is done by blocking the conversion of 17-0HP into test) .. This is why if you are going to try using HCG during pct it must be used with nolva.. The nlova helps to stop the blocking action of the HCG.. thats what the study i posted in my above post is showing .. (so when using nolva with hcg its suppressive nature is blocked).. another concern would be any suppression form the estrogen engendered by the hcg ... which is going to be stopped by using the aromasin .. So if someone was to want to use HCG for pct .. they must also use Aromasin and Nolva ..



Merc.

[Merc.]

also check this thread out ..

Can we KILL this topic once and for all please: Using hCG for PCT



Merc.

[marcus300]

Marcus, thanks for the information ... Much appreciated! My doctor's objective is to give my body about a one month break from the Test C. My last test injection was Oct. 30. My doc had me wait two (2) weeks, then start the HCG program. Once finished with that, I will wait a week and start back up with the injections, or call it Nov. 27.

There's obviously a lot of variables with all of this, but the main benefit my doctor is expressing to me is that my body can get some rest and recovery from the test, and the HCG will keep me from crashing or losing any ground with my workouts, activities, etc. I know last time my test levels dropped, I felt catabolic and actually went backwards with my gains.

I hope people understand that I'm not the doctor here, nor am I just some noob playing Wheel of Fortune with some gear cycle. Every step I take at this point is under counsel of my doctor (with exception to the Clen ). If this is something that should really be challenged, then I'll gladly present some opposing evidence to my doctor. I'll be taking some blood work next week too, so that might be interesting as well.

Thanks again Marcus, I'm going to see if I can't get some quick answers from the doctor about some of these various concerns that have been posted.

I am still finding hard to understand why he would drop the HRT for a month, if I dod that I would feel awfull no matter what I took, the reason why your using Test is because you have low Test so why drop it!! doesnt make much sense, when he says "rest" what does he mean rest from what> I personally wouldnt want to rest because my body would be in a worse state without it and IMHO theres nothing to rest from..

Your doctor is a high level doctor in this field so I guess he is the one to follow but maybe ask him some questions "why" "what will benefit" from dropping the test.

[ythrashin]

Its going to be a hormonal roller coaster ride for sure...

[Vettester]

I recently posted about these .. they are from a diffrent thread fro mthe other day..( about HCG in pct )..

HCG suppressive nature is blocked when using nolva with it .. The suppressive nature of HCG is due to HCG blocking the conversion of 17 ohp into test ( which nolva blocks this suppressive nature) .. If you look up desensitize and leydig on pubmed you will see that desensitization is not caused by PKC , and therefore is likely to be caused by HCG's effects on 17 OHP , and those effects from HCG are blocked by nolva.. There are studies that show that pre exposure to normal lh is necessary for hcg leydig cell desensitization.. it is not going to effect someone whos lh level is low becuase they are coming off a cycle( which it would be low ) .. Also any suppression form the estrogen engendered by the hcg is going to be halted by the aromasin ...

So if you dont use high doses for long periods of time , hcg is actually pretty good in pct ( when combined with nolva and aromasin like i posted above).. I will say i do feel it is best to use hcg on pct if 1) it wasnt incorporated in your cycle 2) if you had atrophy during your cycle..

Heres a study showing that nolva blocks hcg effects on 17 ohp ..

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.
Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

PMID: 7419679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE



There are studies that show that pre exposure to normal LH levels would be necessary for HCG induced leydig desensitization .. When a guy comes off of a cycle his LH is going to be low ( so it woundnt be a problem ... you just dont wanna use hcg for too long ).. Also other studies i have reviewed show that HCG doesnt have a direct effect on LH release ... rather it works by inhibiting it indirectly by stimulating test production ( and activating negative feed back loop).. So if you dont use too high of a dose .. and you dont use it for very long periods of time it is not going to be a concern ( and can be very helpful ) keep in mind I only like hcg in pct if you had testicular atrophy while on cycle ..

The problem with the HCG begin used in pct is the down regulation of the leydig LH receptor ( which is done by blocking the conversion of 17-0HP into test) .. This is why if you are going to try using HCG during pct it must be used with nolva.. The nlova helps to stop the blocking action of the HCG.. thats what the study i posted in my above post is showing .. (so when using nolva with hcg its suppressive nature is blocked).. another concern would be any suppression form the estrogen engendered by the hcg ... which is going to be stopped by using the aromasin .. So if someone was to want to use HCG for pct .. they must also use Aromasin and Nolva ..



Merc.

Merc, great information! What I don't quite get is the information above, in BOLD, supports HCG being a good option for PCT, but I think it's P#15 from Ythrasher and a few of his other posts that completely assimilate that idea to pieces.

I have a message into the doctor's office to hopefully get some more input on his rationale for the protocol. It was presented pretty soundly when he first went through it with me, but I had no idea that it would stir up so much opinion. Thanks again Merc, really appreciate it!

[Merc.]

Why is this HCG protocol not a good idea? Well, not using HCG for a prolonged period of time will desensitize your leydig cells and also mega dosing like I believe you are will desensitize your leydig cells also.

Running a low dose of HCG all the time will also help regulate other hormones.
LH/HCG stimulates the side chain cleavage enzyme P450scc which is involved in converting cholesterol to pregnenolone which then is used to make progesterone,DHEA and androsta-5,16-dien-3 beta-ol by 16-ene synthetase. It will also help keep your boys from shrinking to the size of peas all the time.

I despise seeing illogical/misuse use of substances.

Read this.



HCG - Unraveled
Eric Potratz
HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz
Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders.
PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use . Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.
HCG unraveled –
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.
When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin -like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.
Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due toprolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.
One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation.Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)
To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)
Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!
The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids . (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20




In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.
Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)
Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.
If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)
Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.
Recap –
For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

References -
1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466–495
2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.
3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)
4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.
5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.
6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.
7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003
8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic /anabolic steroids in power athletes
Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)
9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate .
Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201–203
10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282–287
11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583–590 (1973)
12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.
Catt KJ, et al

Eric Potratz does know about steroids but he isnt the best person to take his advise as any kinda of end all be all thing .. Eric read medical studies wrong in his article Clomid and Nolva and The Darkside OF The Moon.. About nolva up regulating PgR .. all the studies he referenced were showing upreg of PgR in endomeria tissue ( uterus of women ) , and not in breast tissue .. and from those studies he mistakenly came to the conclusion that nolva can make gyno worse when using it with a 19 nor ( so like i said he isnt the best person to quote for solid info)... But the interesting thing is that I had found studies ( a few years ago) that show that nolva does possibly increase PgR in breast tissue .. Heres a link to a thread i posted the studies in .. it is a very intresting topic ...

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...80#post4933180



Merc.

[ythrashin]

Interesting... thanks for those links I'll read them later.

[Vettester]

also check this thread out ..

Can we KILL this topic once and for all please: Using hCG for PCT



Merc.

Another good link on information. However, I do see quite a bit of controversy about HCG being used with PCT. Some love it, some hate it.

[Merc.]

Merc, great information! What I don't quite get is the information above, in BOLD, supports HCG being a good option for PCT, but I think it's P#15 from Ythrasher and a few of his other posts that completely assimilate that idea to pieces.

I have a message into the doctor's office to hopefully get some more input on his rationale for the protocol. It was presented pretty soundly when he first went through it with me, but I had no idea that it would stir up so much opinion. Thanks again Merc, really appreciate it!

Yea as i explained it could be used in pct... I do agree that the using that 10 HCG protocol is a bit of a older method.. Alot of endo's do still follow that protocol though... some Dr.s do stop the patient like yours advised ..and some just add the hcg to the cycle for 10 days( i have seen docs do both many times).. The methods really vary from Dr. to Dr. ( i will say it does seem to be the older endo's that use the 10 day protocol )...



Merc.

[Merc.]

Interesting... thanks for those links I'll read them later.

It is a great topic man ...





Merc.

[Merc.]

Some love it, some hate it.

Yes indeed ^^^ ..




Merc.

[Hazard]

My fathers HRT doc does this very same thing!

He prescribes him 250mg's/test E per week for 12 weeks. Two weeks after his last injection he runs HCG for 42 days. He also runs clomid for 30 days. Once the 42 days of HCG is finished..... he starts his test again assuming bloodwork is good.

I never run my HCG durring pct..... 250iu's two to three times a week durring cycle and durring the time I'm waiting for the esther to clear and my PCT's go smooth as can be.

My father recovers fine tho..... his test levels are around 650 or so when he gets his bloodwork done.....

~Haz~

[Vettester]

My fathers HRT doc does this very same thing!

He prescribes him 250mg's/test E per week for 12 weeks. Two weeks after his last injection he runs HCG for 42 days. He also runs clomid for 30 days. Once the 42 days of HCG is finished..... he starts his test again assuming bloodwork is good.

I never run my HCG durring pct..... 250iu's two to three times a week durring cycle and durring the time I'm waiting for the esther to clear and my PCT's go smooth as can be.

My father recovers fine tho..... his test levels are around 650 or so when he gets his bloodwork done.....

~Haz~

Thanks for the information, Haz. 42 days ... Wow! And I thought my 10 day program was raising some eyebrows.

[Merc.]

My fathers HRT doc does this very same thing!

He prescribes him 250mg's/test E per week for 12 weeks. Two weeks after his last injection he runs HCG for 42 days. He also runs clomid for 30 days. Once the 42 days of HCG is finished..... he starts his test again assuming bloodwork is good.

I never run my HCG durring pct..... 250iu's two to three times a week durring cycle and durring the time I'm waiting for the esther to clear and my PCT's go smooth as can be.

My father recovers fine tho..... his test levels are around 650 or so when he gets his bloodwork done.....

~Haz~

Yep.. lots of Dr.s follow lots of different protocols ...





Merc.

[Vettester]

I am closing in on the 1/2 way mark with this HCG program.

Since last week, I have lost 2 pounds (189-to-187). I'm not saying that the HCG is the reason, as for I've really stepped it up a notch on the cardio program over the past week, and my calorie intake is down a little too. Also started Clen again, 40mcg in the morning.

At this time, I do not feel any adverse effects from being off of Test, or call it no symptoms of crashing. I'm hoping this will stay true for the duration ... My next Test shot will be the day after Thanksgiving (11/27). Even though I've changed my repetition and workout routine, I still feel as strong as before, my stamina is holding, and the mental focus and rationale appears to be holding up as normal as it gets for me. I've heard rumors that HCG has a unique way of increasing the amount of fluid during a climax, a la Peter North. To this point anyway, that myth is busted! No more, no less than normal, but just about right. Would love to see that one happen though

Other than that, just dealing with this rash and tumor thing on my sack, which is where I've been pinning my HCG. I presume that's normal?







JK!!! Seriously, all is well. I'll keep you posted with any changes.

[Merc.]

I am closing in on the 1/2 way mark with this HCG program.

Since last week, I have lost 2 pounds (189-to-187). I'm not saying that the HCG is the reason, as for I've really stepped it up a notch on the cardio program over the past week, and my calorie intake is down a little too. Also started Clen again, 40mcg in the morning.

At this time, I do not feel any adverse effects from being off of Test, or call it no symptoms of crashing. I'm hoping this will stay true for the duration ... My next Test shot will be the day after Thanksgiving (11/27). Even though I've changed my repetition and workout routine, I still feel as strong as before, my stamina is holding, and the mental focus and rationale appears to be holding up as normal as it gets for me. I've heard rumors that HCG has a unique way of increasing the amount of fluid during a climax, a la Peter North. To this point anyway, that myth is busted! No more, no less than normal, but just about right. Would love to see that one happen though

Other than that, just dealing with this rash and tumor thing on my sack, which is where I've been pinning my HCG. I presume that's normal?







JK!!! Seriously, all is well. I'll keep you posted with any changes.

Interesting .. I never heard peter north say that about hcg.. I have heard him claim he used clomid ..( i also read something about a diet he used for increasing it also)...




Merc.

[Vettester]

Interesting .. I never heard peter north say that about hcg .. I have heard him claim he used clomid ..( i also read something about a diet he used for increasing it also)...




Merc.

I not sure of what he's used or dieted with, but whatever it is it works. Just used him as an example, since he's kind of the poster child for that stuff. Not to get too far off of the subject, but I've heard a lot of that stuff is just plain genetics.

Again, it's kind of like the weight loss thing with HCG too. Seems to be a lot of stuff tagged to it, which I don't have the slightest clue if it holds up or not.

[TITANIUM]

Extremely interesting and informational thread.

Best

T