Need Advice... Starting TRT

[bowers32]

Some details...

47 year old
240 lb
5"10
30% BF
Test levels - low 300's

Have basic symptons a guy like me would have... lack of sleep, tired, increased bodyfat, losee libido etc

Have had two blood tests over the past few months and talked to three different doctors... so ready to take the plunge

here is what my dr (anti aging guy) is recommending:

TEST CYPIONATE 210MG
1/2 ML (100MG) TWICE WEEKLY

TEST PROPIONATE 100MG
1 ML (100MG) MIXED WITH TEST CYPIONATE TWICE WEEKLY

HCG 11,000 IU COMPOUND
USE AS DIRECTED

ANASTROZOLE (ANTI-ESTROGEN) 30 1MG CAPS
1 CAP DAILY FOR TWO WEEKS, THEN ONE CAP E3D[/SIZE][/INDENT]

I would love to hear opinions of this program. i have never done this or anything like this at all... but tired of being tired.

HGH was considered as well but I just don't know the difference between the HRT and TRT to make that decision yet.

Thanks for your time

[zaggahamma]

Welcome bro...
you obviously want to reduce that bf% so make sure you are working on improving your diet and making sure youre mixing in a good exercise plan with cardio and resistance training and cardio...see where i'm going with this?

yes, that combination is the most important combo and like i mentioned via email...dont need that much test and/or anti estrogen....if you are indeed low T anywhere from 100mg to 200mg would be plenty of test and possibly cutting down on the anastrozole maybe a half of a pill when calling for a whole...BUT...MORE IMPORTANTLY....i dont see where the doctor has you retesting for your levels...

this is all, of course, assuming that your main objective is reducing that bf% and building a nice lean leftover...

and in my travels....hrt and trt are interchangeable the h standing for hormone and t for testosterone (r & t- replacement therapy)...

have you purchased/started this protocol...

maybe you could list your diet and exercise routine/plan

good luck bro

[oakdad]

Just when we read of a doc that understands the shot twice a week he throws in Test PROPIONATE to insure you still have your ups and downs.

My suggestions.
Do self injections
File the above scripts
Don't take the Propionate (just save it for when you want to cycle later)
Then for starters fill you CYPIONATE syringe to the .3 mark and start there for your twice a week shot.
Then just take your ANASTROZOLE cap just before you do your CYPIONATE shot.
I have yet to use HCG so I will just go with his USE AS DIRECTED.

If you come back low for you test level up your Cypionate to the .4 mark retest. If still low go to .5 mark retest and repeat until you find your sweet spot.

[flatscat]

My thoughts are based on my own situation - which is pretty close to yours.

I can almost promise that if you lost 10-15% body fat by improving your diet and workouts, you would see your t numbers go up 200-300 points. You would feel better and not have to be on trt the rest of your life.

You did not post the rest of your panel, so I am guessing here that you are not shut down, you just have high bf, helping to convert t to e. I don't think I was shut down at the start either - just low t, high bf and high e2. I wish I would have tried maybe an AI to start with which will lower e2 (if you are high) and increase t.

I know it sounds like a great idea to start this - and it does feel great most of the time - but you will need to lose that bf either way - no question - so you might as well try to lose it first and then do blood work again and see where you are. I also drank like a fish pre trt which did nothing but hurt all of my numbers and body comp.

Maybe you can talk with your doc about this scenario and see he says.

Good luck,


flats

[durak]

are you saying you drank the night before the bloodwork and it did not drop your test?

[Vettester]

Everyone is throwing out some valid questions and comments. Flats & JPK brought up the diet issue. That is a huge variable here IMO. You're in the low 300's. Not saying that number shouldn't be up, because anywhere in the 300's sucks to me, but at the same time you don't have a gutter low score in the 100's. I personally think you have way too much compound going to start. 1mg of Anastrozole, daily? Like Flats mentioned, if you shave a BIG percentage of that BF down, some amazing things would happen with the other variables related to restoring balance in the body. 30% BF didn't occur because you have a low 300 test score, it occurred with what you've consumed into your body, and how you've gone about handling it. All the "T" and HCG in the world isn't going to cut your BF down for you.

You mentioned the HCG about taking as directed. What is the amount they are telling you to take?

[zaggahamma]

although worth trying FIRST...losing weight/fat before going on trt...

....i went from 290lbs to 250lbs before i checked my t levels and thats when i discovered it and i was mid to high 200's so the 40lbs that i lost i dont know if my test levels could have been lower when i was 290 but i had a hit a brick wall at 250 but the addition of trt was INDEED wut i needed....so maybe it was good i lost the 40lbs first, i dunno?

[flatscat]

are you saying you drank the night before the bloodwork and it did not drop your test?

what r u talking about?

[flatscat]

although worth trying FIRST...losing weight/fat before going on trt...

....i went from 290lbs to 250lbs before i checked my t levels and thats when i discovered it and i was mid to high 200's so the 40lbs that i lost i dont know if my test levels could have been lower when i was 290 but i had a hit a brick wall at 250 but the addition of trt was INDEED wut i needed....so maybe it was good i lost the 40lbs first, i dunno?

I hear ya JP. Some need it to get started. I just think before he goes on this rollercoaster (it will be one at least to start) he owes it to himself to try and raise his t before he sticks a needle into his arse. But, you have a point.

It is all in how much motivation he has to accomplish his goals. I didn't think I had it to start with, but looking back, I prolly could have and wished I would have.

[bowers32]

Thanks guys.... yes believe me I am all to well aware of diet exercise.

I work out with weights about 4 times a week and do cardio afterwards.

No doubt my BF is a result of lifestyle.. no easy fix and am not looking for one... if I was I would go on clen or something like that....

But TRT also brings some other things I am looking for... increased energy, better libido etc....I love to work out.. love lifting heavy weights... don't mind cardio at all either... not eating as well as I should but not as bad as the bf% looks either. I have seen an incredible slowdown in my metabolism in the last three years... I would say alarming.

I am determined to get better and feel better... not going out without a fight.

I am not intersted in drugs for the heck of it... I have never done anything like this at all... this is a huge leap for me.

The other thing that concerns me is that in a test I took in 09 my T levels were in the 400's and now they are in the 300's.... and the IGF is on the low end and the free test is on the low end

So no, I am not in the gutter on levels and a regular MD probably wouldn't put me on this. And the thought of sticking myself twice a week is really ****ing with me....

Frankly as one of the posters said perhaps if nothing else a placebo affect will take place and with all the positive things it will do, maybe I will feel better and more determined and all the other areas will improve as well (diet, exercise)

So want to make sure everyone knows I am not doing this loosely nor without pause or caution and I am still on the fence on whether or not to do it anyway.

Thanks again for all the feedback

[zaggahamma]

I hear ya JP. Some need it to get started. I just think before he goes on this rollercoaster (it will be one at least to start) he owes it to himself to try and raise his t before he sticks a needle into his arse. But, you have a point.

It is all in how much motivation he has to accomplish his goals. I didn't think I had it to start with, but looking back, I prolly could have and wished I would have.

Yes, totally agree....it is always an individual situation and thats why sometimes i like to share what i've personally experienced and also what i've seen others post

[zaggahamma]

Thanks guys.... yes believe me I am all to well aware of diet exercise.

I work out with weights about 4 times a week and do cardio afterwards.

No doubt my BF is a result of lifestyle.. no easy fix and am not looking for one... if I was I would go on clen or something like that....

But TRT also brings some other things I am looking for... increased energy, better libido etc....I love to work out.. love lifting heavy weights... don't mind cardio at all either... not eating as well as I should but not as bad as the bf% looks either. I have seen an incredible slowdown in my metabolism in the last three years... I would say alarming.

I am determined to get better and feel better... not going out without a fight.

I am not intersted in drugs for the heck of it... I have never done anything like this at all... this is a huge leap for me.

The other thing that concerns me is that in a test I took in 09 my T levels were in the 400's and now they are in the 300's.... and the IGF is on the low end and the free test is on the low end

So no, I am not in the gutter on levels and a regular MD probably wouldn't put me on this. And the thought of sticking myself twice a week is really ****ing with me....

Frankly as one of the posters said perhaps if nothing else a placebo affect will take place and with all the positive things it will do, maybe I will feel better and more determined and all the other areas will improve as well (diet, exercise)

So want to make sure everyone knows I am not doing this loosely nor without pause or caution and I am still on the fence on whether or not to do it anyway.

Thanks again for all the feedback

bowers...you have an excellent attitude and i think youre gonna be another success story...please keep us posted and there will always be someone on here to offer help

[bowers32]

Thanks very much my friend.... still don't know what I am going to do...

From what I have been told... TRT will make me feel better and HGH will help with body composition.... of course HGH is much more expensive and you stick most everyday, which isn't something I would look forward to.

I may research HGH some and see what the side affect are..... the biggest obstacle I have to having quality workouts and cardio are small injuries to tendons, ligaments, joints etc... I can never get on track in a good routine.... cause as soon as I do, then something else starts hurting.... and I have been told HGH would be best to counter that.

[zaggahamma]

Thanks very much my friend.... still don't know what I am going to do...

From what I have been told... TRT will make me feel better and HGH will help with body composition.... of course HGH is much more expensive and you stick most everyday, which isn't something I would look forward to.

I may research HGH some and see what the side affect are..... the biggest obstacle I have to having quality workouts and cardio are small injuries to tendons, ligaments, joints etc... I can never get on track in a good routine.... cause as soon as I do, then something else starts hurting.... and I have been told HGH would be best to counter that.

if you can afford it from here out....do it...i would...i would keep my hormones at optimal levels the best i could...just from being on test replacement my skin, nails, hair is healthier looking grows faster....

just my .02

[Epic Ed]

Your situation is similar to mine. About the same weight and body fat. I'm 42. Just started TRT in February and found this site when doing my research.

You might want to ask the doc about the propionate . I know it's a different ester than the cyp, but I've never heard of a doc scripting both cyp and prop for TRT. Nearly everything I've read indicates a good starting dose for most people is going to be 100mg EW and the check levels after 3 months, then adjust accordingly. The 300mg combined seems like a high dose to use for a baseline. I'm also not taking any AI's and I'm not concerned about it at the doses I'm taking. He might have recommended them for you because of the dose he's scripting.

Good luck with your treatment. I'm five weeks into it and feel quite a bit better. My work outs have definitely improved and that started giving me some positive momentum. Just last week I got my diet act together and I'm hoping the lbs start to drop off consistently. I'd love to get back under 200 lbs, and who knows -- my test levels might be fine at that point. I'm sure it will help yours.

[durak]

what r u talking about?

lol... sorry. had multiple windows open and replied in wrong thread.

[zaggahamma]

Your situation is similar to mine. About the same weight and body fat. I'm 42. Just started TRT in February and found this site when doing my research.

You might want to ask the doc about the propionate . I know it's a different ester than the cyp, but I've never heard of a doc scripting both cyp and prop for TRT. Nearly everything I've read indicates a good starting dose for most people is going to be 100mg EW and the check levels after 3 months, then adjust accordingly. The 300mg combined seems like a high dose to use for a baseline. I'm also not taking any AI's and I'm not concerned about it at the doses I'm taking. He might have recommended them for you because of the dose he's scripting.

Good luck with your treatment. I'm five weeks into it and feel quite a bit better. My work outs have definitely improved and that started giving me some positive momentum. Just last week I got my diet act together and I'm hoping the lbs start to drop off consistently. I'd love to get back under 200 lbs, and who knows -- my test levels might be fine at that point. I'm sure it will help yours.

good to hear bro

[bowers32]

Yes I think from the advice I have gotten from the guys here I am going to stick with test cyp only and start doses much lower maybe at 200 a week, two shots 100 each...

Also thinking about deca since a huge problem I have is sore joints and tendons... can push heavy weights for some good workouts, but always end up hurting something that doesn't heal and then my workout suffer for a long time

So that would be put me doing the following:

Test Cyp = 200 mgs a week
HCG
Estrogen blocker
Deca
Propecia (taking now and ahve been for a few weeks)

Do you guys see any sides or problems coming with this program?

How much Deca should I take a week?

I will do a blood test after 5 weeks and see where everything is before I change anything.

I have just started a new diet (last two weeks) which is much stricter, low carb, high protein (thus why I am going heavy on weights)....

dropping bf% is #1 goal... I truly believe once that occurs that I can then look at my levels with some sense of normalcy.... cause I know that with high bf estrogen is going to be driven high and test low... so it will be nice to get that down so that I can really see what kind of levels my body is normally producing.

I am scared shitless of starting this... a huge leap for me... I run from shots... so the thought of now taking three things that require a needle is really a stretch but I need and want to feel better so that I can be better.

[bowers32]

Oh and to clarify the sides I am most concerned about:

Loss of sleep.... I have a real hard time sleeping now, so would hate for that to get worse

Hair loss.... I am doing propecia and rogaine right now, don't have really bad hair loss.. but based on my family history it is right around the corner so I am fighting the fight

Water Retention.... when you are fighting against the fat monster like I am the worse thing that can happen is to have water retention and see those numbers on the scales go up when you are working so hard for them to go down... anybody on here that struggles to lose weight knows what I am talking about

What are you guys thoughts, based on the doses I mentioned in the other post, about seeing these side affecets..... thanks again

[lovbyts]

Being on HRT I have had NO water retention. My diet is not perfect but it is 100% better than when I started 3 years ago. If you have any bloat issue make sure your water intake is high and your salt intake is low.

I have always been prone to hair loll/high hairline or receding hairline but I have seen no increase. I dont use rogaine or propecia either.

My sleep has always been crap due to working 3rd shift. I cant say it's any worse but not any better.

The only problem with the HGH is the $$$$

[Epic Ed]

If you're not already aware the deca will kill the test levels in your blood stream. Since you already have low test deca will be working against your TRT. I'm in a similar situation -- bad knees with osteoarthritis. I'm planning to eventually run a cycle of deca to see if it helps alleviate the joint pain, but will be bumping my test levels up to run a 2:1 ratio of test to deca.

[bowers32]

yea I have been reading a lot on this board and others about making sure the Test is at a higher level... that presents a problem because I was going to run about 250 on test, which would put it at 125 for deca and I am hearing that isn't enough to make a difference.

Plus I am hearing that it is good to not run anything with the TRT to begin with to make sure any sides can be properly ID'd with the test.

[zaggahamma]

yea I have been reading a lot on this board and others about making sure the Test is at a higher level... that presents a problem because I was going to run about 250 on test, which would put it at 125 for deca and I am hearing that isn't enough to make a difference.

Plus I am hearing that it is good to not run anything with the TRT to begin with to make sure any sides can be properly ID'd with the test.

doesnt need to be higher/double...i recommend 200/200

[Epic Ed]

...and it also depends on what you're trying to get out of the deca . If you're looking to just see if it has therapeutic benefits for the joints you could start at a lower dose of deca. If you're wanting some hypertrophic affects it's my understanding that 250-300mg is a minimum. I would expect you'd also get the joint relief benefits at those levels.

Personally, I'm going to try 150mg because I'm really not looking for added gains. I wouldn't be pissed, but that's not primary. If that first cycle doesn't do anything (or not much) I'll try it again later at a higher dose.

If you do this please be sure to keep track of your progress and post up results. We're kind of on our own when it comes to finding out if AAS has therapeutic benefits other than muscle gain because the medical community is nearly universally terrified of writing scripts for this kind of stuff unless there is a body of empirical data to support doing so. The freakin steroid witch hunt has nearly shut down research on the safe and beneficial usage of AAS.

[lovbyts]

If you're not already aware the deca will kill the test levels in your blood stream. Since you already have low test deca will be working against your TRT. I'm in a similar situation -- bad knees with osteoarthritis. I'm planning to eventually run a cycle of deca to see if it helps alleviate the joint pain, but will be bumping my test levels up to run a 2:1 ratio of test to deca.

Explain how Deca will kill your test levels if you are on TRT? Your natural levels are already not producing due to the TRT. Deca does not effect the Test per say but the bodies ability to produce the test and if you are supplementing it/replacing the test via injection it will have no effect on that.

[Vettester]

Explain how Deca will kill your test levels if you are on TRT? Your natural levels are already not producing due to the TRT. Deca does not effect the Test per say but the bodies ability to produce the test and if you are supplementing it/replacing the test via injection it will have no effect on that.

That's kind of what I figured too. Deca has a reputation for shutting a person down, but when you're on TRT you're pretty much shutdown already. So, unless Deca can shutdown a person's syringe, the "T" is going in and will do its thing with or without Deca.

[Epic Ed]

Explain how Deca will kill your test levels if you are on TRT? Your natural levels are already not producing due to the TRT. Deca does not effect the Test per say but the bodies ability to produce the test and if you are supplementing it/replacing the test via injection it will have no effect on that.

Then I'm misunderstanding the effects of deca on test levels. If taking deca shuts down a normal person's test production it would seem it would further hamper the ability of someone who is on TRT to benefit from the TRT.

Here's my thinking:

- patient A has normal test levels = 800
- patient B has below normal test levels = 200

- patient A takes deca, gets deca dick, and has test levels = 250
- patient B takes deca, already has deca dick, and without TRT would shut those levels down even further = sub-100.

So, deca still has the effect on both patients regardless of whether one has problems with natural test levels to begin with.

- patient A adds test to his cycle and gets test level up = 1000
- Patient B, who was already on TRT, bumps his test dose up and gets his test levels up with a larger than TRT dose = 600

Both patients have optimal or supra-optimal test levels, artificially, via the use of test.

Post-deca, patient A will use PCT to get natural test levels going again. Patient B will lower his test dose but remain on TRT.

That's my understanding of how this would work. Where am I going wrong? And I certainly could be going wrong -- I'm just looking for clarification.

[whiteowl]

You have good points from all. What i might add is that you will get your energy & concentration back, your attitude will be back, your libido ...well i always said i would love to have known in puberty what i know now and beginning HRT is the closest your going to get.

[durak]

it has improved my ADD significantly.

[lovbyts]

Then I'm misunderstanding the effects of deca on test levels. If taking deca shuts down a normal person's test production it would seem it would further hamper the ability of someone who is on TRT to benefit from the TRT.

Here's my thinking:

- patient A has normal test levels = 800
- patient B has below normal test levels = 200

- patient A takes deca, gets deca dick, and has test levels = 250
- patient B takes deca, already has deca dick, and without TRT would shut those levels down even further = sub-100.

So, deca still has the effect on both patients regardless of whether one has problems with natural test levels to begin with.

- patient A adds test to his cycle and gets test level up = 1000
- Patient B, who was already on TRT, bumps his test dose up and gets his test levels up with a larger than TRT dose = 600

Both patients have optimal or supra-optimal test levels, artificially, via the use of test.

Post-deca, patient A will use PCT to get natural test levels going again. Patient B will lower his test dose but remain on TRT.

That's my understanding of how this would work. Where am I going wrong? And I certainly could be going wrong -- I'm just looking for clarification.

No because you are thinking of TRT as a Booster but it's not. When you add testosterone to your system it stops producing it. If you add only a LITTLE it may only produce less but then you are still at the lower level so you have to in reality replace your natural production to get you up to a normal level, not just BOOST it.

That is why some people can get away with alternatives to TRT and bring their levels up naturally with supplements and aids instead of replacement. Hence the name HRT Hormone REPLACEMENT Therapy or TRT Thyroid REPLACEMENT Therapy and not HBT, hormone booster therapy. lol

Another thing to think about if you notice most people on HRT run around the same amount. That is not because we are all lacking the same amount but because it takes roughly the same amount to get into the normal levels from zero (0)

[durak]

TRT = Testosterone replacement therapy too.

[lovbyts]

TRT = Testosterone replacement therapy too.

LOL, yes same same. But the main point was Replacement..

[Black]

Most likely your anti-aging doc is prescribing the Prop to get more $$$. I don't know if this is the case, but does prop kick in faster? I don't see the point of having two esters.

What did your E2 test at? Because 1mg daily of Arimidex is HIGH, IMO. It's not as strong as Letro, but still a very strong compound in it's own right.

A lot of people think they are low and most are. However, IMO I would try another approach FIRST. If it doesn't work, you can always start TRT in the future. Why take something the rest of your life if you don't have too? How many of us would rather not have to stick ourselves if we didn't have too?

"Anti-aging" docs will help you, however they honestly are just after $$$. I don't understand why a doctor wouldn't try other methods of getting your natural T to come up. I'm glad that doctors, no matter what kind, are starting to treat this condition. But it has to be controlled still.

First, I would REALLY try to lower BF. Like I said, Diet. Check out the Diet forums and search online for different ideas. Chances are your eating is not very good. Weights 4x a week, Cardio 4x a week. Cut calories to 10 to 12x your bodyweight. Try something similar to that, WITH A GOOD DIET (High Protein, Lower Carbs (Eat Complex only), and Good Fats) and then retest after you've lost some fat.

If it's still low (and assuming E2 is high), try Arimidex (dose it according to how high your E2 is). This could also help free up some T (Usually not much, but some).

If it's still low and you feel the same, then I would try HCG only therapy (May have to take an Aromatase Inhibitor with it, cause it can increase E2 in some). I've seen doctors start to try this therapy to help "kick-start" the testes into producing natural again.

If it's still low, then start your TRT. But I would start low. 200mg a week is on the high end and you may not need as much. Again, anti-aging doctors will prescribe you high. The more you take, the more you buy and the more money they make. Now they will keep you in a healthy range, but it's usually overkill. A buddy of mine was prescribed 400mg a week from his "anti-aging" doc. That's a cycle. But after a couple months, the doc still wanted him to take that dose. His blood results were fine, but his numbers were WAY out of the therapuetic range.

Start lower and work your way up. You may feel great at 100mg a week. If you start higher and work your way down, 180mg is not going to feel as good as 200mg probably will, and so on.

As stated above, I would try to lower BF first. Working out isn't enough. Diet is much more important. I see people at the gym all the time. They work out all the time, however, they still look the same. It's because they aren't eating correctly.

I'm not bashing you or anything, please know that. It just seems like you are compound dependent. You've mentioned Test Cyp, Prop, HCG, Arimidex, HGH, Deca and Clen . Now I know you didn't say you were going to take them all at once, or were you? Either way, when you look at it, that's a lot of stuff.

Good luck man. Sorry for the long-winded post. I just hate to see someone rely completely on medicine to make the feel better. If you had good eating habit and lower bodyfat, and you still felt the same, then I would say go for it.

(Also, please post your complete hormone blood panel - E2, Free T, etc.)

[bowers32]

ok so I am taking the plunge.... finally... I have researched this and talked about it for abotu a year now.....

I am going to take test cyp... 210 a week... plus HCG ... not sure of how much and when yet and anastrozole (anti E) 1 cap daily for 2 weeks, then 1 cap every 3 days.

How does this sound? I have purposely decided to be a little conservative my first time out... I want to see how I react to this before I consider upping the test dose.

Now I am scared shitless of the sticking I now have to do.

Question... can I do the 210 of test in 1 weekly shot or should i do two a week?

Thanks for all the advice you guys have given me.... this is a huge leap of faith for me....

[durak]

it is better to be conservative if you are unsure. The test is fine. I don't know about the 1mg of anastrozol every day for two weeks. i don't see the point except they make more money. at most i would say 1mg every other day then go to twice a week.

[zaggahamma]

it is better to be conservative if you are unsure. The test is fine. I don't know about the 1mg of anastrozol every day for two weeks. i don't see the point except they make more money. at most i would say 1mg every other day then go to twice a week.

agree.....i think it would work at first but then when/if most likely the estro goes too low and big probs there as well...its a fine science

[Vettester]

Let us know how you made out with your first pinning session. BTW, how much HCG are you taking? Just keep an eye on your blood work to see where you're at with everything. I presume you'll be going in for lab work in 6 weeks or so?

Congrats!

[Black]

Most likely your anti-aging doc is prescribing the Prop to get more $$$. I don't know if this is the case, but does prop kick in faster? I don't see the point of having two esters.

What did your E2 test at? Because 1mg daily of Arimidex is HIGH, IMO. It's not as strong as Letro, but still a very strong compound in it's own right.

A lot of people think they are low and most are. However, IMO I would try another approach FIRST. If it doesn't work, you can always start TRT in the future. Why take something the rest of your life if you don't have too? How many of us would rather not have to stick ourselves if we didn't have too?

"Anti-aging" docs will help you, however they honestly are just after $$$. I don't understand why a doctor wouldn't try other methods of getting your natural T to come up. I'm glad that doctors, no matter what kind, are starting to treat this condition. But it has to be controlled still.

First, I would REALLY try to lower BF. Like I said, Diet. Check out the Diet forums and search online for different ideas. Chances are your eating is not very good. Weights 4x a week, Cardio 4x a week. Cut calories to 10 to 12x your bodyweight. Try something similar to that, WITH A GOOD DIET (High Protein, Lower Carbs (Eat Complex only), and Good Fats) and then retest after you've lost some fat.

If it's still low (and assuming E2 is high), try Arimidex (dose it according to how high your E2 is). This could also help free up some T (Usually not much, but some).

If it's still low and you feel the same, then I would try HCG only therapy (May have to take an Aromatase Inhibitor with it, cause it can increase E2 in some). I've seen doctors start to try this therapy to help "kick-start" the testes into producing natural again.

If it's still low, then start your TRT. But I would start low. 200mg a week is on the high end and you may not need as much. Again, anti-aging doctors will prescribe you high. The more you take, the more you buy and the more money they make. Now they will keep you in a healthy range, but it's usually overkill. A buddy of mine was prescribed 400mg a week from his "anti-aging" doc. That's a cycle. But after a couple months, the doc still wanted him to take that dose. His blood results were fine, but his numbers were WAY out of the therapuetic range.

Start lower and work your way up. You may feel great at 100mg a week. If you start higher and work your way down, 180mg is not going to feel as good as 200mg probably will, and so on.

As stated above, I would try to lower BF first. Working out isn't enough. Diet is much more important. I see people at the gym all the time. They work out all the time, however, they still look the same. It's because they aren't eating correctly.

I'm not bashing you or anything, please know that. It just seems like you are compound dependent. You've mentioned Test Cyp, Prop, HCG, Arimidex, HGH, Deca and Clen . Now I know you didn't say you were going to take them all at once, or were you? Either way, when you look at it, that's a lot of stuff.

Good luck man. Sorry for the long-winded post. I just hate to see someone rely completely on medicine to make the feel better. If you had good eating habit and lower bodyfat, and you still felt the same, then I would say go for it.

(Also, please post your complete hormone blood panel - E2, Free T, etc.)

LOSER! Don't you know that high BF% helps you sleep better, gives you more energy and increases your sex drive!? It easier to take medicine for the rest of your life than change any eating habits. Your post sucks.

[Epic Ed]

I don't think you should imply that from his response, at all, D-D.

Once a guy gets to be habitually out of shape and has age and body chemistry working against him it's a very difficult road to hoe in order to get back to a level of fitness and good health. I've been in top physical condition several times in my life, and I've been obese and unhealthy. Getting back on the "healthy" track becomes exponentially more difficult as most guys cross that "40" land mark. I used to be able to just get back in the gym, ratchet up the intensity, eat healthier, and in two months I'd be ready to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Not so these days.

Doing TRT while neglecting other important health factors and behaviors is a waste of time. Without better nutrition and a commitment to consistent work outs no one on TRT will ever really get their fitness level back. But that doesn't mean someone has to struggle for years trying to get their health back without the assistance of a good doc because they put some false ceiling on their body fat % they needed to be at before starting TRT.

One thing I think some of the experienced guys in the body building world struggle with is understanding the difference between why old has-beens like me want to use test or run a cycle and why men still in their prime want to cycle. Guys in their prime are looking for gains in one way or another. Old ****ers like me just want to feel better again so we can resume a normal, healthy lifestyle. For many of us TRT is a means to help get there.

[zaggahamma]

I don't think you should imply that from his response, at all, D-D.

Once a guy gets to be habitually out of shape and has age and body chemistry working against him it's a very difficult road to hoe in order to get back to a level of fitness and good health. I've been in top physical condition several times in my life, and I've been obese and unhealthy. Getting back on the "healthy" track becomes exponentially more difficult as most guys cross that "40" land mark. I used to be able to just get back in the gym, ratchet up the intensity, eat healthier, and in two months I'd be ready to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Not so these days.

Doing TRT while neglecting other important health factors and behaviors is a waste of time. Without better nutrition and a commitment to consistent work outs no one on TRT will ever really get their fitness level back. But that doesn't mean someone has to struggle for years trying to get their health back without the assistance of a good doc because they put some false ceiling on their body fat % they needed to be at before starting TRT.

One thing I think some of the experienced guys in the body building world struggle with is understanding the difference between why old has-beens like me want to use test or run a cycle and why men still in their prime want to cycle. Guys in their prime are looking for gains in one way or another. Old ****ers like me just want to feel better again so we can resume a normal, healthy lifestyle. For many of us TRT is a means to help get there.

excellent post