All good things must come to an end

[Black]

*Sorry for the book. The really important stuff is in bold*


I go to an anti-aging clinic (online). Up until now, things have been great.

I am coming to find out that my "doctor" is not very open to me modifying my own protocol.

He originally prescribed me this: 300mg of Test Cyp a week, 500iu HCG 3x a week, .5mg of Arimidex 3x a week. (I ran the HCG every other month [due to prevent leydig desensitization and to prevent high estrogen from long term use).

To me, this was excessive. I went over my bloodwork with my "doctor" (via phone) and he said my test was at 1400. He said this is perfect, but no higher. I then asked for my results to me mailed or faxed to me. He said he would send them out next business day. He didn't. I then proceeded to bug him for it. Always gave me an exucse ("it's in the mail" or "I sent it, you should have gotten it"). Life becomes busy and I grew tired of asking.

Based on what results he gave me, I felt things were too high. I backed things down to this protocol: 200mg of Test Cyp a week, 250iu HCG 2x a week and no Arimidex (the arimidex made me feel like complete shit, as discussed in previous threads).

My "doctor" was against this. He said everything was perfect (Again, I asked for bloodwork and blah blah blah). So I did it anyway. It's my body.

New bloodwork came back. Test was at 1000. Estrogen was higher at 71 (this was because I ran HCG without any breaks. It was the only thing that changed). And AGAIN, I bug him for a copy of the bloodwork. He completely ignores my requests now.

I tried to explain it to him and suggest Arimidex be dosed at .25mg EOD. He said that was too low and told me to finish up current "script" at .5mg 5x a week. Then next "refill" he wants me to take 1mg EOD. I felt this was overkill. However, I tried the 5x a week knowing what was going to happen.

Sure enough, a week or so after starting that dose, my libido went to shit. E-mailed "doctor" about what's happening. He responds back with "Drop dosage down to 6x a week". WTF?!?!?!?! I responded and said, "Uhhh, I'm only taking it 5x a week and having these problems". He apologized and said "I meant keep it at 5x a week. Things will level out. High estrogen would cause lack of libido and sexual function ..not low estrogen levels....."

This makes no sense to me. When my Estrogen was 71, I was horny as F U C K! And now that I'm taking an excessive amount of Arimidex, my libido is down. Between this and the bloodwork issues, I've about had it. I feel he is just trying to milk me for money.

[Black]

Ok, the bold text doesn't really do a good job at summing it up. If you guys could please take the time to read the whole thing, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Vettester]

Dante, is this a doctor that you see? Can you go to his office and get the paperwork? Is he a doctor?

Seems to be a few members lately that are complaining of excessive treatment. The tables have turned ... Used to be everyone was having trouble with not getting enough.

[Black]

Dante, is this a doctor that you see? Can you go to his office and get the paperwork? Is he a doctor?

Seems to be a few members lately that are complaining of excessive treatment. The tables have turned ... Used to be everyone was having trouble with not getting enough.

He's based out of Florida. I live up north, so getting to his office is not possible. He is the "doctors" assistant or whatever. I don't speak directly with the doctor. Apparently he relays information to him. Not a very good feeling if you know what I mean. Who knows what's going on.

It's almost like he's hiding something by not giving me the results. Either that or I'm not even a slight priority (as he didn't even know what he prescribed my dosage to in the e-mail).

I almost feel like I should switch clinics. However, I'm not sure how that will work because they base your protocol on bloodwork and being low. I'd like a doctor that you work directly with. Even if it's over e-mail or the phone.

[Epic Ed]

You probably know what I think by now -- SCREW HIM!

You have a right under HIPPA to access your medical records, including lab test results. Make your request formally in writing with the explanation that any further delay in obtaining a copy of your lab work will result in legal action against them.

Secondly, if he can't give you sound reasoning for his protocol you have every right to adjust your dosing as you see fit, but you assume the liability for doing so. Adverse reactions cannot be blamed on him if something unexpected happens.

Third -- if he isn't aware that LOW estrogen levels induce erectile dysfunction just as readily as E2 levels that are too high, then he is an incompetent prick who must be replaced by a competent medical professional.

Eject, dude! Find another doc.

[bowers32]

I feel your pain my friend..... I did the exac same thing, though it wasn't an online clinic in Fla, though I did talk to one once and their prices were through the roof.

It sounds like you ran into the same trap I did. The person, wanted you on high doses to sell more gear. Same thing happend to me, except my guy was even worse on the hig doses of HCG and anti-E....

Result??? I was on the protocol for 6 weeks and felt worse during that six weeks than anytime before. I may has well have flushed that money down the toilet for the good it all did me.

Why? Because my body wasn't no where near ready for level of stuff all at once. These guys are right on..... there is more knowledge and common sense with these other posters than with most anti-aging clinic I have ever talked to and I have talked to several.

When I told my guy I was walking away from all of it, so that I could stop feeling like horse crap everyday.... he advised me to take Anavar.... I know it is a good steriod, mild, and people get good results from it. But not right on top of all the other stuff I had taken. Of course I didn't know better, and I paid for the very expensive drug, took it two days and my blood pressure went through the roof. So have dropped that.

After some good advice from a long time poser on this board, I will go back to the TRT, with the levels that I know now are proper... and the levels that all these guys recommend.

test around 200mg
hCG 250 3 times a week
.25 anti-E maybe a couple times a week.. I think they recommend no more than 1.5mg for the whole week

This is what we get when we can't get our regular doctors to understand how TRT can be important to us, then we have to go to anti-aging places who are there to make money... period and thus push levels on us that aren't sane.

Oh and the last poster that talked about your right to get the labs is spot on. It is the freaking law..... they have no choice... they have to give it to you.

Good luck and like I said I am in the exact same boat as you.... these guys on this board know what they are talking about, you did the right thing in seeking their advice.

[Black]

You probably know what I think by now -- SCREW HIM!

You have a right under HIPPA to access your medical records, including lab test results. Make your request formally in writing with the explanation that any further delay in obtaining a copy of your lab work will result in legal action against them.

Secondly, if he can't give you sound reasoning for his protocol you have every right to adjust your dosing as you see fit, but you assume the liability for doing so. Adverse reactions cannot be blamed on him if something unexpected happens.

Third -- if he isn't aware that LOW estrogen levels induce erectile dysfunction just as readily as E2 levels that are too high, then he is an incompetent prick who must be replaced by a competent medical professional.

Eject, dude! Find another doc.

Well said Epic. I'm getting ready to threaten him with legal jargon after I type this. I've pretty much been modifying the protocol from the beginning, without his knowledge. Only now, he wants me to buy 1mg Arimidex instead of the .5mg, which I don't even want to touch. .25mg is what I feel would work best for me (which I was able to order some liquid from ar-r). However, when I get my "refill", I need to buy the whole sha-bang as a bundle, or he won't allow me any at all.

Thanks for the advice from everyone. I first went to my primary doc, then an endo, and finally a urologist. All 3 said I was fine at sub 200 test levels (including all the low T symptoms and lower-mid range in Free T). So I finally gain knowledge that their are these clinics that will help. I immeadiately get help, which gives me hope. Then I soon find out that all they are really doing is selling me a legal cycle, for more money than anyone should pay.

Right when you get hope, it's taken right away. Just really adds fuel to the fire that's already been burning.

I feel like I should find a good clinic before I possibly burn this bridge. They already destroyed my comfort level and I don't want to use them anymore.

[Black]

You probably know what I think by now -- SCREW HIM!

You have a right under HIPPA to access your medical records, including lab test results. Make your request formally in writing with the explanation that any further delay in obtaining a copy of your lab work will result in legal action against them.

Secondly, if he can't give you sound reasoning for his protocol you have every right to adjust your dosing as you see fit, but you assume the liability for doing so. Adverse reactions cannot be blamed on him if something unexpected happens.

Third -- if he isn't aware that LOW estrogen levels induce erectile dysfunction just as readily as E2 levels that are too high, then he is an incompetent prick who must be replaced by a competent medical professional.

Eject, dude! Find another doc.

Well said Epic. I'm getting ready to threaten him with legal jargon after I type this. I've pretty much been modifying the protocol from the beginning, without his knowledge. Only now, he wants me to buy 1mg Arimidex instead of the .5mg, which I don't even want to touch. .25mg is what I feel would work best for me (which I was able to order some liquid from ar-r). However, when I get my "refill", I need to buy the whole sha-bang as a bundle, or he won't allow me any at all.

Thanks for the advice from everyone. I first went to my primary doc, then an endo, and finally a urologist. All 3 said I was fine at sub 200 test levels (including all the low T symptoms and lower-mid range in Free T). So I finally gain knowledge that their are these clinics that will help. I immeadiately get help, which gives me hope. Then I soon find out that all they are really doing is selling me a legal cycle, for more money than anyone should pay.

Right when you get hope, it's taken right away. Just really adds fuel to the fire that's already been burning.

I feel like I should find a good clinic before I possibly burn this bridge. They already destroyed my comfort level and I don't want to use them anymore.

[tubs]

I pretty much been modifying the protocol from the beginning, without his knowledge. .

Not going to say your doc is any good because he probably is not but i hope you see the issue with the above statement - you will never get good results if you do not stick with the program between blood tests

[Black]

Not going to say your doc is any good because he probably is not but i hope you see the issue with the above statement - you will never get good results if you do not stick with the program between blood tests

Here is what I mean by modifications. Doctor originally started me off at 300mg a week of Test Cyp. I ran that up to bloodwork. Test levels came back at 1400. That is too high for me. I felt ok at that level, but I don't feel it's safe long term. My goal was to then lower the dose to "dial it in" so to speak (find the optimum dose at the lowest therapuetic level.

After getting bloodwork results, I dropped the dose to 200mg of Test Cyp a week. Doctor didn't like this and said I was "perfect" where I was at. I did it anyway, it's my body.

After consistently using 200mg a week, I felt great. I was a little too agressive feeling at 300mg a week. Complexion wasn't as good either (back).

I had bloodwork again a few months after being on 200mg a week. Test level was at 1000, which is where I want to be. I'm not nearly as agressive and my complexion has cleared up. Not to mention estrogen dropped a few points too.

That's what I mean by modifying my protocol. Further proving that these clinics are out for money. And just because a "doctor" gives you a dosage, doesn't mean it's exactly perfect for you. TRT takes time to find the right dose. These clinics don't want to experiment. They are making more money off me at 300mg a week, than at 200mg a week.

[Epic Ed]

Not going to say your doc is any good because he probably is not but i hope you see the issue with the above statement - you will never get good results if you do not stick with the program between blood tests

I don't agree with that statement, especially not in the area of HRT. It's always a risk to modify any treatment protocol outside of a doctor's recommendation, but no one is a better judge of what works and what doesn't than the patient, himself.

We, the patients, have all the tools at our disposal for determining what's effective and what's not. An honest and self-aware person can make observations quicker and more accurately than any doctor can when it comes to dosing HRT. Most docs don't do blood work at frequent enough intervals to intelligently determine what is going on with the protocol they have prescribed. They guess when it comes to making adjustments, and they base that guess on dated research, out dated protocols, and personal biases.

With the right knowledge a HRT patient can make very well reasoned adjustments to their protocol -- doctors approval be damned. If I'm feeling pretty lousy on a 200mg every other week protocol, according to the traditional doctor/patient model I'd have to wait until my follow up appointment 2 or 3 months down the road to give my doctor feedback on how things are going. He'd then possibly bump my dose to 300mg EOW (without blood work, mind you) and send me on my way for another month. At that point I'd probably be getting itchy nipples the day after my 300mg dose and would be crying while watching Oprah i the afternoons because my E2 level is too high, and then I'd be on the hormonal rollercoaster a week later becuase my test levels are now starting to drop. So three months down the tubes and the doc still isn't even in the right ballpark to get me on an effective protocol. It would likely take another several months of trial and error to get it any where close to effective, and that's if we ever got there, at all!

OR...

I could take that initial 200mg EOW dose, do some reading here and on other sites about the benefits of pinning less test more frequently, decide to Problem solved.

If we're taking wild stabs in the dark at resolving some medical issue, that one thing. But we should not be afraid to take our collective knowledge and experience with HRT and disregard it just because our doctors are not up to speed. I wouldn't do that with cancer treatment and I'm sure as **** not going to do it with my HRT program. I've said it before -- I am the ultimate decision maker about my health care plan in all areas of my life. ME. Not my doc. I value their experience and education in areas I'm unfamiliar, but they are simply a consultant in my health care. They are not the ones making the decisions about how to proceed. I am.

[tubs]

Here is what I mean by modifications. Doctor originally started me off at 300mg a week of Test Cyp. I ran that up to bloodwork. Test levels came back at 1400. That is too high for me. I felt ok at that level, but I don't feel it's safe long term. My goal was to then lower the dose to "dial it in" so to speak (find the optimum dose at the lowest therapuetic level.

After getting bloodwork results, I dropped the dose to 200mg of Test Cyp a week. Doctor didn't like this and said I was "perfect" where I was at. I did it anyway, it's my body.

After consistently using 200mg a week, I felt great. I was a little too agressive feeling at 300mg a week. Complexion wasn't as good either (back).

I had bloodwork again a few months after being on 200mg a week. Test level was at 1000, which is where I want to be. I'm not nearly as agressive and my complexion has cleared up. Not to mention estrogen dropped a few points too.

That's what I mean by modifying my protocol. Further proving that these clinics are out for money. And just because a "doctor" gives you a dosage, doesn't mean it's exactly perfect for you. TRT takes time to find the right dose. These clinics don't want to experiment. They are making more money off me at 300mg a week, than at 200mg a week.

this guy should have started you at 100mg a week and worked his way up slowly to find your sweet spot

slowly = 10-25mg a week with about 3 months and blood work to see where you are

cutting by 100mg a week is a huge difference

300mg a week is a cycle not trt - as you know or now know



but the most important thing here is if you could not agree on the amound per week to shoot you should have taken the script shot what you wanted and found a new doc - no way should you ever go back to a guy you can't agree on this with ever

you need to be on the same page with the doc and if you can't agree you need to find a new one that will listen - you should only change doses after blood work to confirm where you are at and small changes at that (i know you had the issue that you were way to high but he never should have had you that high to start off with)

[tubs]

I don't agree with that statement, especially not in the area of HRT. It's always a risk to modify any treatment protocol outside of a doctor's recommendation, but no one is a better judge of what works and what doesn't than the patient, himself.

We, the patients, have all the tools at our disposal for determining what's effective and what's not. An honest and self-aware person can make observations quicker and more accurately than any doctor can when it comes to dosing HRT. Most docs don't do blood work at frequent enough intervals to intelligently determine what is going on with the protocol they have prescribed. They guess when it comes to making adjustments, and they base that guess on dated research, out dated protocols, and personal biases.

With the right knowledge a HRT patient can make very well reasoned adjustments to their protocol -- doctors approval be damned. If I'm feeling pretty lousy on a 200mg every other week protocol, according to the traditional doctor/patient model I'd have to wait until my follow up appointment 2 or 3 months down the road to give my doctor feedback on how things are going. He'd then possibly bump my dose to 300mg EOW (without blood work, mind you) and send me on my way for another month. At that point I'd probably be getting itchy nipples the day after my 300mg dose and would be crying while watching Oprah i the afternoons because my E2 level is too high, and then I'd be on the hormonal rollercoaster a week later becuase my test levels are now starting to drop. So three months down the tubes and the doc still isn't even in the right ballpark to get my on effective protocol. It would likely take another several months of trial and error to get it any where close to effective, and that's if we ever got there, at all!

OR...

I could take that initial 200mg EOW dose, do some reading here and on other sites about the benefits of pinning less test more frequently, decide to Problem solved.

If we're taking wild stabs in the dark at resolving some medical issue, that one thing. But we should not be afraid to take our collective knowledge and experience with HRT and disregard it just because our doctors are not up to speed. I wouldn't do that with cancer treatment and I'm sure as **** not going to do it with my HRT program. I've said it before -- I am the ultimate decision maker about my health care plan in all areas of my life. ME. Not my doc. I value their experience and education in areas I'm unfamiliar, but they are simply a consultant in my health care. They are not the ones making the decisions about how to proceed. I am.

I kind of agree but this joker never should have had him up to 300mg in the first place

to get good results I believe you need to 1st off change the dose a minimal amount only after blood work. there are to may things that can make you feel ways that would think you nee to change your dose in the wrong direction so feeling it out is good but you need blood work to verify that.

My doc went with 3 month periods on the blood work and worked me up slowly from 100mg - we had to change the arimidex dose once so far and may have to again but high or low e can easily make you feel like you need to adjust your test when your test could be fine and you really just need to adjust your e levels

fyi my free is at 1080 right now and i am pretty happy with it there but i get blood work on the 1st and we'll see.

also my doc does not guess he has had a lot of training in hrt, goes to seminars several times a year and uses a well thought out plan not the throwing darts method it seems like a lot of docs are using (sorry to say)

[tubs]

and while some of the other stuff is blured and the op was way over dosed (which never should have happened) I still insist that if you can not get on the same page with your doc on how much test to shoot you will not get the results you are looking for.


maybe i was not clear.
You should not have to cut your dose by 100mg without your doctor knowing. Either you told him and he didn't care (time to get a new doc) or you just changed your dose without telling him which is still a problem. There has to be agreement and you should be happy with it or find a new doc. (doctors work for you not the other way around)

[Vettester]

and while some of the other stuff is blured and the op was way over dosed (which never should have happened) I still insist that if you can not get on the same page with your doc on how much test to shoot you will not get the results you are looking for.


maybe i was not clear.
You should not have to cut your dose by 100mg without your doctor knowing. Either you told him and he didn't care (time to get a new doc) or you just changed your dose without telling him which is still a problem. There has to be agreement and you should be happy with it or find a new doc. (doctors work for you not the other way around)

Tubs, the OP never had any direct contact with a "doctor". It was always with an assistant.

He explained to the assistantl that he was not happy with his test levels, and the "assistant" didn't like that. Furthermore, the "assistant" told him that his test score was "perfect". So obviously communication on the matter wasn't effective either.

If I choose to cut down my meds due to concern of my health, then it's my choice.

[Epic Ed]

Very few of us have been able to find a doctor who will work with us to get on the same page. I agree -- it's ideal if you can go that route, but realistically most of us are facing long, uphill battles with incompetence and over coming the immaturity of the process that currently characterizes most HRT protocols. I also think characterizing a 300mg dose of test as a "cycle" is painting with too broad a brush. I know some guys who are on a legit 400mg EW dose because everyone is different. If it takes 300mg to get you to the upper 3rd of the reference range then that's what it takes -- it's not a cycle. If that dose puts someone into a supra-physiologcal range (1400+) then, yes, that's beyond the scope of TRT and is achieving a different goal. I do agree that 300mg is usually NOT a starting point for TRT, but again, it speaks volumes about the battle we're all fighting to find a doc who knows what the feck he/she is doing.

[tubs]

i don't know how you guys could do it. I am really lucky with my doc. - much more then i ever thought.

[Vettester]

i don't know how you guys could do it. I am really lucky with my doc. - much more then i ever thought.

Getting a good doctor is great. Having one that you consider a partner is priceless!

I'm sure just about everyone here would embrace having a "team" minded doctor who truly cares about their personal needs. Truthfully, if that were the case, I probably wouldn't be on this forum today.

I don't want to get too carried away (apologies to the OP), but what I'm telling you is that a lot of us are here not because we didn't see everything eye to eye with our doctors so we bailed, but in a lot of cases we're here due to absolute terrible treatment, advise, bedside manner, etc. My primary doc has crashed me twice, and had originally wanted to do one shot a month ... Never again, Tubs. I had an Endo that told me how it was illegal to take injections at home ... Fired me when I tried to send him some Endo Journals regarding TRT, HCG, etc. He was just a mean spirited prick, thinking the worst of people.

I learned real quick that the only one that has my back is me. If you got a "keepa" then it's definitely something to be proud of.

[tubs]

Getting a good doctor is great. Having one that you consider a partner is priceless!

I'm sure just about everyone here would embrace having a "team" minded doctor who truly cares about their personal needs. Truthfully, if that were the case, I probably wouldn't be on this forum today.

I don't want to get too carried away (apologies to the OP), but what I'm telling you is that a lot of us are here not because we didn't see everything eye to eye with our doctors so we bailed, but in a lot of cases we're here due to absolute terrible treatment, advise, bedside manner, etc. My primary doc has crashed me twice, and had originally wanted to do one shot a month ... Never again, Tubs. I had an Endo that told me how it was illegal to take injections at home ... Fired me when I tried to send him some Endo Journals regarding TRT, HCG, etc. He was just a mean spirited prick, thinking the worst of people.

I learned real quick that the only one that has my back is me. If you got a "keepa" then it's definitely something to be proud of.

fired you?WTF! he works for you - I guess i am really not getting it. These guys must be out of their minds.

I started with full blood work and then at 100mg a week. did bloodwork every 3 months and met with the doc 1 to 2 weeks after the blood work and we talked about how i was feeling and we went over the 3 pages of blood work line by line - it probably took almost one hour after the first one because I had a ton of questions.
After we go over the blood work he usually tells me what he thinks and then asks me how i am feeling and what i think!!! they he will say something like i think we should bump up your test to .6 and i say something dumb like I think i need to go to 1cc then we agree at .7 (this is pretty close to my first blood work after starting at 100mg a week or .5) then we talde some more and I said my e levels are pretty high i think i will probably need more arimidex - he say yea i am glad you caught that lets bump it up from .25 2x a week to .5 2x a week

sorry to drone on but it seems so simple I can't imagine it any other way

now i get blood work every 6 months and I think he is going to push it further after my blood work on the 1st if everything still looks good

my guy also gave me b12 to shot with my test and a complete work up on vitamins and amminos etc. that would be of benifit after looking at my blood work. He does sell the vitimains there but doesn't care if i buy them from him or not - he is actually cheaper on a lot of stuff so i get it from him and others from online. He also gives me workout and nutrition advice and sends out emails almost every day with tips and health related news articles

sorry this was so long but I guess I never even thought doctors would be such a s s holes

[tubs]

and i would report the doc that 'fired you'

[zaggahamma]

fired you?WTF! he works for you - I guess i am really not getting it. These guys must be out of their minds.

I started with full blood work and then at 100mg a week. did bloodwork every 3 months and met with the doc 1 to 2 weeks after the blood work and we talked about how i was feeling and we went over the 3 pages of blood work line by line - it probably took almost one hour after the first one because I had a ton of questions.
After we go over the blood work he usually tells me what he thinks and then asks me how i am feeling and what i think!!! they he will say something like i think we should bump up your test to .6 and i say something dumb like I think i need to go to 1cc then we agree at .7 (this is pretty close to my first blood work after starting at 100mg a week or .5) then we talde some more and I said my e levels are pretty high i think i will probably need more arimidex - he say yea i am glad you caught that lets bump it up from .25 2x a week to .5 2x a week

sorry to drone on but it seems so simple I can't imagine it any other way

now i get blood work every 6 months and I think he is going to push it further after my blood work on the 1st if everything still looks good

my guy also gave me b12 to shot with my test and a complete work up on vitamins and amminos etc. that would be of benifit after looking at my blood work. He does sell the vitimains there but doesn't care if i buy them from him or not - he is actually cheaper on a lot of stuff so i get it from him and others from online. He also gives me workout and nutrition advice and sends out emails almost every day with tips and health related news articles

sorry this was so long but I guess I never even thought doctors would be such a s s holes

Dude you found a gem there...I see what the prototype doctor should be like in this guy...kudos...what city/state are you in...i'm sure we all would like to know

[Black]

Dude you found a gem there...I see what the prototype doctor should be like in this guy...kudos...what city/state are you in...i'm sure we all would like to know

x2, I am wondering also.

tubs, I'm not bashing you at all. If anything, I'm jealous. However, it's not very good practice to assume that every doctor out there is as complete as yours. In fact, it's very narrow-minded.

Either way, I'm moving to where you live.

[pittbulldad]

and i would report the doc that 'fired you'

what are you going to report him for? OP wasn't following the doctors prescriptions or protocols so the doctor declined to treat him (fired him).. thats the doctors right.. i'm not saying his protocol was right or even healthy for the OP.. but if you aren't following what they prescribe they can release you from treatment..

[tubs]

what are you going to report him for? OP wasn't following the doctors prescriptions or protocols so the doctor declined to treat him (fired him).. thats the doctors right.. i'm not saying his protocol was right or even healthy for the OP.. but if you aren't following what they prescribe they can release you from treatment..

Not sure on the whole situation but it sounds like impropper care was given after pointed out? but you are probably right as it is none of my business.

I live in ohio but not sure on rules for posting my guys web site or name

[pittbulldad]

Not sure on the whole situation but it sounds like impropper care was given after pointed out? but you are probably right as it is none of my business.

I live in ohio but not sure on rules for posting my guys web site or name

we try to avoid it.. but you can pm it to people

[zaggahamma]

what are you going to report him for? OP wasn't following the doctors prescriptions or protocols so the doctor declined to treat him (fired him).. thats the doctors right.. i'm not saying his protocol was right or even healthy for the OP.. but if you aren't following what they prescribe they can release you from treatment..

correct me if i'm wrong but i dont believe it was the OP that doctor fired him....it was the vetteman...and it wasnt due to following doctors orders it was for showing the doctor studies which is FVCKED...like i said correct me if i'm wrong...did i miss a post...i dunno

[ThickOne]

Dante- I have a great clinic, awesome docs, really good pricing and VERY legit, no BS. PM me

[pittbulldad]

correct me if i'm wrong but i dont believe it was the OP that doctor fired him....it was the vetteman...and it wasnt due to following doctors orders it was for showing the doctor studies which is FVCKED...like i said correct me if i'm wrong...did i miss a post...i dunno

sorry you were right.. vette was fired

doesn't really change the rest of it.. if you aren't following what the doctor is telling you what to do.. EVEN if he is wrong... he can release you from treatment....

[tubs]

sorry you were right.. vette was fired

doesn't really change the rest of it.. if you aren't following what the doctor is telling you what to do.. EVEN if he is wrong... he can release you from treatment....

on the other hand if he doesn't listen to you and offers a treatment that very well could be harmful.....

[Black]

on the other hand if he doesn't listen to you and offers a treatment that very well could be harmful.....

Hey tubs, check your PMs.

[tubs]

Hey tubs, check your PMs.

Got it, and back at you