Beginner, needing advice

[Jupiter2]

Heya folks.

Just found your forums and I'm looking for some advice. I'm a 46 year old male who has been exhibiting the classic symptoms of low T. I recently contacted an anti-aging clinic down south which got the ball rolling for me.

The lab work showed that my cholesterol was a bit high. My Serum Testosterone was at 275 (Scale 280-800) and my Free Testosterone at 6.3. (Scale 6.8-21.5). My Serum FSH (whatever that is) was at 1.4 (Scale 1.5-12.4). LH was at 3.1 and Estradiol at 18.3.

The clinic is suggesting the following for treatment (10 week program):

1 Testosterone Cypionate 210mg/ml injection
2 HCG 5,000 C/P
20 Anastrozole 1mg

Not knowing anything about the subject my question is: Does this appear to be a competent course of treatment given my numbers and their stated intention of returning me to the upper range of testosterone in my system?

Lack of libido, lethargy, poor sleep and mild depression are my main problems. I am definitely not healing as quickly from injuries as I used to, and after approx. 10 years of faithfully working out I've have nothing to show for it other than the bulge that has started to develope recently in my abdomen. Will the therapy help me with these problems?

Thanks in advance for anything, anyone has to offer.

[tubs]

Why a 10 week program?
and is that 210mg of test a week? if so that is a lot to start with but will probably help with all of the thing you have listed.

[Vettester]

Heya folks.

Just found your forums and I'm looking for some advice. I'm a 46 year old male who has been exhibiting the classic symptoms of low T. I recently contacted an anti-aging clinic down south which got the ball rolling for me.

The lab work showed that my cholesterol was a bit high. My Serum Testosterone was at 275 (Scale 280-800) and my Free Testosterone at 6.3. (Scale 6.8-21.5). My Serum FSH (whatever that is) was at 1.4 (Scale 1.5-12.4). LH was at 3.1 and Estradiol at 18.3.

The clinic is suggesting the following for treatment (10 week program):

1 Testosterone Cypionate 210mg/ml injection
2 HCG 5,000 C/P
20 Anastrozole 1mg

Not knowing anything about the subject my question is: Does this appear to be a competent course of treatment given my numbers and their stated intention of returning me to the upper range of testosterone in my system?

Lack of libido, lethargy, poor sleep and mild depression are my main problems. I am definitely not healing as quickly from injuries as I used to, and after approx. 10 years of faithfully working out I've have nothing to show for it other than the bulge that has started to develope recently in my abdomen. Will the therapy help me with these problems?

Thanks in advance for anything, anyone has to offer.

Jupiter, welcome to the site.

Your E2 (estradiol) is a little low (IMO), you don't want to be taking 1mg tablets of Arimidex/Anastrozole. The "T" and HCG will make the rise, but I'd be careful with the amount you take. If you can break it up into 0.5, you might only need 1 per week. If it starts creeping up, maybe 2 per week @ 0.5.

They should run lab work after about 6 weeks to see where you're at. Is this the case, or are they waiting it out for 10 weeks? After 6 weeks, you could see where your E2 results are at and what adjustments need made.

On the HCG, how much are you supposed to take each week? 5,000iu is probably the size of the bottle, but mix it up you might be taking 250iu or 500iu ... Did they go over this with you?

[Jupiter2]

Tubs,

The price they quoted me was for supplies that would last for a period of 10 weeks. The rep stated that I would have my bloodwork checked again around that time and the meds would be adjusted if needed. The following is the listing of supplies in its entirety:

1 Testosterone Cypionate 210mg/ml injection
1 FedEx Shipping
2 HCG 5,000 C/P
20 Anastrozole 1mg
2 30 X 5/16 X 1CC - 10 pk
20 23g 1.5 w/3cc syringe
12 21g Needle only

Because I have no knowledge on the subject, my assumption, based on the above list is that they are sending only 1 vial of Test and that the weekly injected dosage would be 1/10 of the amount stated on the vial but I cannot be sure. This is primarily the reason I am seeking advice on the forum. The other is the cost associated with the supplies they are suggesting.

[Jupiter2]

Vette,

Thank you for the welcome.

Not much has been stated about the individual dosages of the recommended products. The rep stated that after the supplies were received, everything would be explained over the phone. The clinic stated that I would be given a valid prescription for everything that was sent to me. I again have assumed that this means that the tablets would be in a bottle with clear instructions on consumption similar to what I would receive in a pharmacy here at home.

Again this, and the cost of the supplies for the 10 weeks is why I have come to the forum. I would like to be able to ask the proper questions before committing to this.

[Vettester]

Vette,

Thank you for the welcome.

Not much has been stated about the individual dosages of the recommended products. The rep stated that after the supplies were received, everything would be explained over the phone. The clinic stated that I would be given a valid prescription for everything that was sent to me. I again have assumed that this means that the tablets would be in a bottle with clear instructions on consumption similar to what I would receive in a pharmacy here at home.

Again this, and the cost of the supplies for the 10 weeks is why I have come to the forum. I would like to be able to ask the proper questions before committing to this.

Sorry that this clinic has failed you. Before they took your money they should have been going down the list with you and bringing you up to speed with how it all works.

Anyways, when you get the prescriptions:
1) Complete your phone session with the Rep/Doc, make sure YOU TAKE NOTES, and make sure they clarify everything with you from mixing the HCG properly down to drawing, aspirating and injecting your medications properly.

2) Please report it back to us and let us chime in. You've got a squad of vets willing to review and help.

Also, clarify the Anastrozole dosage with them. If you're getting 20 pills, then that indicates they're going to have you take 2mg per week. Let us know.

[Jupiter2]

Not sure that they have failed me as I've yet to send them any money besides the amount that was needed for the bloodwork. Was hoping to begin with them this week but I may put it off until next week so I can learn a bit more, and ask a few more questions. All of this is a wee bit overwhelming.

I'll be calling the clinic tomorrow and will be sure to report back promptly. Thx again for everyone's help. I appreciate it.

[Vettester]

OK, thought by the description of stuff that you already ordered.

Anyways, maybe they'll go over it thoroughly with you yet.

[zaggahamma]

Why a 10 week program?
and is that 210mg of test a week? if so that is a lot to start with but will probably help with all of the thing you have listed.

thats how often they would like to get paid i'm sure

[Jupiter2]

Ok gang, just got off the phone with the counselor from the clinic. These are the dosages that were prescribed:

Test: 1 ml per week
HCG: 500 units, twice per week
Anastrozole: 1mg, twice per week

Hope this helps you guys. I've decided to hold off another week on beginning the therapy as I have an appt. with my primary on the 27th. I intend on bringing my lab results with me and discussing the clinic's prescription with her to get her opinion on things. I'm sort of hoping that she agrees with their recommendations (not holding my breath) and offers to write a like prescription on her own. Perhaps that will provide me with a higher chance of my insurance company agreeing to pick up the costs associated with the treatment.

[Vettester]

Your E2 is 18 ... IMO, I would do 1/2 the Anastrozole (0.5 x 2/wk).

Also, if it were me, I'd go with 250iu x 2/wk on the HCG for the first 6 weeks, run BW, then see where I'm at with everything. Could tweak it then if things need to go up a little. Just my .02

[Jupiter2]

Don't know if Anastrozole tablets are scored. I know that some meds cannot be "cut" because they are designed to be time released. Is this med safe to be cut?

Your 2 cents btw is priceless since I've no experience whatsoever with any of this stuff. I obviously don't want to do more harm than good with the treatment, especially if this is to be a long term thing. Now I have an experienced person's knowledge and experience to use as a baseline in my own treatment and with my discussions with the clinic.

Thank you so much for the advice. If anything more develops I'll bring it to the forum and will definitely post once I begin the treatment to give everyone insight into my own experiences with the meds.

[Vettester]

Don't know if Anastrozole tablets are scored. I know that some meds cannot be "cut" because they are designed to be time released. Is this med safe to be cut?

Your 2 cents btw is priceless since I've no experience whatsoever with any of this stuff. I obviously don't want to do more harm than good with the treatment, especially if this is to be a long term thing. Now I have an experienced person's knowledge and experience to use as a baseline in my own treatment and with my discussions with the clinic.

Thank you so much for the advice. If anything more develops I'll bring it to the forum and will definitely post once I begin the treatment to give everyone insight into my own experiences with the meds.

Not priceless ... Charging you $100 consulting fee!!!


JK

Also, let us know how the Anastrozole comes. You just don't want to drop your E2 much lower than where it's at now.

[Epic Ed]

Your current estrogen level is low, but that could rise rapidly depending on how you metabolize testosterone. Test converts to estrogen -- that's just how it works. So, the more test you put into your body, the higher your E2 levels will rise. How much they rise depends on the person. It's good to have an AI on hand, but I wouldn't take it at all right out of the gate. The two factors that will effect how much test converts to E2 are your weight and body fat composition. What are your stats? height/weight/body fat?

[durak]

The anastrozol will be caps not tabs so he won't be able to break it in half.

[zaggahamma]

Ok gang, just got off the phone with the counselor from the clinic. These are the dosages that were prescribed:

Test: 1 ml per week
HCG: 500 units, twice per week
Anastrozole: 1mg, twice per week

Hope this helps you guys. I've decided to hold off another week on beginning the therapy as I have an appt. with my primary on the 27th. I intend on bringing my lab results with me and discussing the clinic's prescription with her to get her opinion on things. I'm sort of hoping that she agrees with their recommendations (not holding my breath) and offers to write a like prescription on her own. Perhaps that will provide me with a higher chance of my insurance company agreeing to pick up the costs associated with the treatment.

not a dose thats a measurement....but would guess u have 200, 210, 250mg/ml...just thought i bust your chops a bit and welcome you

best of luck with your regimine

[Jupiter2]

Ed, my stats are:

5'8
157 lbs.

I am unsure of my body fat composition. I've always been slim and found it difficult to put on weight and/or muscle. But within the last 9 months I have been gaining size in my abdominal region and its periphery and losing the little bit of definition I had managed to build over the last 8-9 years of working out. It is not extreme but if I had to guess I would bet that I've got at least 10 pounds or so of fat on me at this point.

Btw Ed, this may not be the place for it, and I hope I don't offend you in any way, but hats off to your state and its politicians for taking the high road and choosing to deal with the illegal immigration problem in Arizona. If the rest of the states grew some balls the country would be better off for it.

JP, the test dosage that the doctor has recommeded is 210 mg/ml if that helps a bit. Don't mind getting my chops busted every now and again. Seems to hurt alot less than the busted arm I suffered a couple of years ago.

As far as the Anastrozole goes I will probably ask to have the dosage cut to .5mg twice a week instead of the 1mg twice per week that has been recommended seeing as the consensus on the forums seems to indicate that to be a good starting point. If a later panel suggests it should be raised then so be it.

Thanks again guys for all your feedback, it is very much appreciated.

[Vettester]

You're right about the E2. Cut the Adex dosage down, run lab work in 6 weeks and see where you're at. In fact, you'll probably see a little libido improvement and what else if it gets in the upper 20's ... Just my .02

[coop1212]

I'm new here also. It looks back the order that we talked to the salesman. That what they wanted to start me on. And its $$$. After one round with them, I spoke with my primary Dr. And he wanted me try the cream. With insurance , it was $75 a month. It smelled, worried abo8t getting it on wife and kids. Then went to Injections at office which was $30 copay for 1ml twice a month. This was a roller coaster ride.high at beginning of week and low at end of second wk. Sucked bad! Then talked Dr into into writing script for a vial of test and my wife injects it at home. With Insurance now it cost me $16 per vial with will last 2-3 months. Hope some of this helps

[Hazard]

There are clinics out there that aren't in it for your health. They will prescribe you 10-12 week "mini cycles"

Best route to take is to find an endocrinologist in your area and speak with them.....

~Haz~

[Jupiter2]

Wasn't sure we could talk prices so I refrained from mentioning it. But the outfit I've been in contact with is wanting just about $650 for 10 weeks worth of the supplies I listed at the beginning of this post. I guess you can't put a price on your well being but that seems steep. Trouble is I'm at the point where my current relationship is suffering due to the symptoms I'm experiencing, and looking back at it I'm wondering if I actually started with these symptoms 8 or 9 years ago which resulted in the destruction of my first marriage.

[Epic Ed]

Jup -- thanks for your support on the political side. ;-) I can literally talk politics all day, so I won't get going here, but if you have a facebook profile send me your contact info. I have well reasoned and thoughtful debate on my wall all of the time. Both sides of the political spectrum are welcomed.

[Jupiter2]

While I'm waiting to see my primary later in the week, I've decided to contact some other clinics for comparison's sake before committing to the first company I've been speaking with.

ThickOne posted about a good experience with a clinic in another thread on this forum. I gave them a call and so far I'm impressed. This clinic's prices seem to be more in line with some of the prices I've seen quoted as being median by other members of the forum. And this outfit seems more than willing to provide me with whatever I'll need in order to get reimbursed by my health insurance.

The gentleman I spoke with also felt that the Anastrozole prescribed by the other clinics doctor was too high in dosage, and further felt that I would be better off with Nolvadex. I will be sending him the results of my bloodwork tomorrow and expect that I'll receive a quote later in the day. In the meantime, anyone have any thoughts on the estrogen blocker substitution?

[bowers32]

Jupiter.... the very best thing you can do is keep coming to this board... dudes like Vetteman and Jpk.... are worth more than you will ever know is adivce....

Listen to what they say on both the HCG and the AntiE.... your estrogen levels are really low...plus taking the levels of AntiE they want you to could cause you some problems... trust me I know.

Same on HCG... that seems way to high to start with.

I had someone give me the same advice and as some on here can attest I went through about 5 weeks of hell.....I felt 10 times worse on TRT then before starting it becaus the doses I was told to take were way to high.

It is much better to start low, conservative... get some lab tests in 6 weeks and adjust accordingly... I have had to get off of all of it for several weeks, let my body calm down (lack of sleep, massive headaches etc....) and now I will start back up... slowly.....

I know the urge to want to start feeling like superman after the first shot... but sadly it almost never starts like that... once it gets dialed in, I think is when the benefit starts.

Good call on your part to come to this board... these guys are the bomb and very helpful.

Remember the people selling you this stuff make a profit... the more you take the sooner you need more...and the sooner you will be buying more from them.

[Jupiter2]

When I started researching this avenue as a remedy, I did so because I felt I would hit roadblocks from local physicians with regard to injectable test. My youngest brother (age 40) was diagnosed with low test several years ago (age 37 at the time), was prescribed the gel and it did nothing for him. He has not sought alternate treatment. I honestly don't know how he manages. He never looks right and seems to get ill quite often yet the guy pushes himself in ways that I simply cannot. Testament to his character.

It didn't take me long to figure out that this is pretty much a business to some of these companies. I've now spoken with three different clinics and while they all offer the same service only one of them, so far, seems to be absolutely concerned about getting me where I desire to be, without risking my health in the process. For a guy like me, with absolutely no knowledge of what constitutes a health risk regarding this subject matter, talking to someone who makes it a point to suggest that starting slow and working up is better than reaching for the sky and than lowering dosages after re-evaluation is admirable, and tells me that they are in this for the right reasons and for the long haul.

The last company I contacted seems to fit the mold that I described above. I'm looking forward to seeing what this company proposes after seeing my bloodwork results and comparing it with what the first clinic proposed. Should be interesting.

[tubs]

When I started researching this avenue as a remedy, I did so because I felt I would hit roadblocks from local physicians with regard to injectable test. My youngest brother (age 40) was diagnosed with low test several years ago (age 37 at the time), was prescribed the gel and it did nothing for him. He has not sought alternate treatment. I honestly don't know how he manages. He never looks right and seems to get ill quite often yet the guy pushes himself in ways that I simply cannot. Testament to his character.

It didn't take me long to figure out that this is pretty much a business to some of these companies. I've now spoken with three different clinics and while they all offer the same service only one of them, so far, seems to be absolutely concerned about getting me where I desire to be, without risking my health in the process. For a guy like me, with absolutely no knowledge of what constitutes a health risk regarding this subject matter, talking to someone who makes it a point to suggest that starting slow and working up is better than reaching for the sky and than lowering dosages after re-evaluation is admirable, and tells me that they are in this for the right reasons and for the long haul.

The last company I contacted seems to fit the mold that I described above. I'm looking forward to seeing what this company proposes after seeing my bloodwork results and comparing it with what the first clinic proposed. Should be interesting.

the other problem that i have noticed is that everyone opinions may differ but no one may be wrong. I think you have to settle in with a doc you are comfortable with and work out any issuse (within reason) over time

[Jupiter2]

Got a quote from the clinic ThickOne recommended. Their pricing was just over half ($366 vs. $650) of that which was quoted to me by the first company I contacted and includes essentially the same products. That is a huge difference and is essentially like getting another 10 weeks for free.

200mg/ ml Test Cyp
1 - 11K HCG kit
20 - .5mg Anastrozole
10 - 18gx 1.5”
10 - 23gx 1.5”
$35 Doctor consult fee
$20 Shipping (ground)

As you can see the Test is 10mg less than the first company's doctor prescribed and the Anastrozole dose has been halved because like you folks here on the forums they thought 1mg twice a week was too much. And the rep stated that he will provide whatever is needed by my insurance company in order to try for reimbursement.

Btw, the rep also stated that their products come from an FDA approved compounding pharmacy that has achieved the highest levels of certification. The rep may have mentioned the name of the pharmacy but I can't recall it at the moment. Information overload basically.

What do you guys think?

[zaggahamma]

Got a quote from the clinic ThickOne recommended. Their pricing was just over half ($366 vs. $650) of that which was quoted to me by the first company I contacted and includes essentially the same products. That is a huge difference and is essentially like getting another 10 weeks for free.

200mg/ ml Test Cyp
1 - 11K HCG kit
20 - .5mg Anastrozole
10 - 18gx 1.5”
10 - 23gx 1.5”
$35 Doctor consult fee
$20 Shipping (ground)

As you can see the Test is 10mg less than the first company's doctor prescribed and the Anastrozole dose has been halved because like you folks here on the forums they thought 1mg twice a week was too much. And the rep stated that he will provide whatever is needed by my insurance company in order to try for reimbursement.

Btw, the rep also stated that their products come from an FDA approved compounding pharmacy that has achieved the highest levels of certification. The rep may have mentioned the name of the pharmacy but I can't recall it at the moment. Information overload basically.

What do you guys think?

g2g...showtime

[flatscat]

I am doubting that you will need the adex. I would be inclined not to take it until your first blood work comes back after your ten weeks unless you feel symptoms of high e2. If you can get by without it you will be much better off. I am a big proponent of starting with as few compounds as you can and then adding what is needed.

We all go through a "dialing in" period at first with pretty good swings of levels for the first 4-5 months. If you start with several compounds and have some issues it may be hard to tell which one is causing which. Adex can also be taken by itself if your total is normal and free is low and e2 is high (which some guys have because of high bf). But if you raise both total and free without raising e2, then don't take it -just have it on hand though.

If you do take the adex I wouldn't go over .25 twice a week until your labs come back in.

Good luck and welcome,

Flats

[lovbyts]

There are clinics out there that aren't in it for your health. They will prescribe you 10-12 week "mini cycles"

Best route to take is to find an endocrinologist in your area and speak with them.....

~Haz~

VERY true. I went to one of those for about a year. Blood work ever 6-10 weeks, wanted me to come in at least once a month and pushing his personal vitamins.

After going to a real Endocrinologist I saw the light. World of difference.

[zaggahamma]

I am doubting that you will need the adex. I would be inclined not to take it until your first blood work comes back after your ten weeks unless you feel symptoms of high e2. If you can get by without it you will be much better off. I am a big proponent of starting with as few compounds as you can and then adding what is needed.

We all go through a "dialing in" period at first with pretty good swings of levels for the first 4-5 months. If you start with several compounds and have some issues it may be hard to tell which one is causing which. Adex can also be taken by itself if your total is normal and free is low and e2 is high (which some guys have because of high bf). But if you raise both total and free without raising e2, then don't take it -just have it on hand though.

If you do take the adex I wouldn't go over .25 twice a week until your labs come back in.

Good luck and welcome,

Flats

100% agree....if you can get bloodwork and monitor closely how youre feeling day to day week to week it is best...but totally agree with taking as less compounds as possible when starting..

well said flats...great advice

[Jupiter2]

Just a quick note to let you guys know that I spoke with the clinic today and the first shipment of supplies is to be sent out tomorrow. I should have it by Tuesday of next week.

Got to admit I'm a bit nervous about self injecting. Never liked needles. I just hope it ends up having the desired effect and I begin to feel better. I'll keep everyone informed by using this thread as something of a weekly journal unless you all feel starting a new thread is warranted. Thanks for all the help.

[zaggahamma]

Just a quick note to let you guys know that I spoke with the clinic today and the first shipment of supplies is to be sent out tomorrow. I should have it by Tuesday of next week.

Got to admit I'm a bit nervous about self injecting. Never liked needles. I just hope it ends up having the desired effect and I begin to feel better. I'll keep everyone informed by using this thread as something of a weekly journal unless you all feel starting a new thread is warranted. Thanks for all the help.

youre gonna love it...no time for nervous...this is your thread no need to start a new one...did u see how change did the country

jup...youre gonna love it bro

[Vettester]

Just takes a little practice ... You'll be fine.

[bowers32]

Just a quick note to let you guys know that I spoke with the clinic today and the first shipment of supplies is to be sent out tomorrow. I should have it by Tuesday of next week.

Got to admit I'm a bit nervous about self injecting. Never liked needles. I just hope it ends up having the desired effect and I begin to feel better. I'll keep everyone informed by using this thread as something of a weekly journal unless you all feel starting a new thread is warranted. Thanks for all the help.

Dude trust me... I was the biggest needle ***** in the world... I was scared shitless... my wife was scared... we were like little kids afraid of the boogy man... it took us hours to do that first shot.... but with a 23 gauge pin it was nothing... literally...

when everyone on here keep telling me to not worry about it, I thought they were full of crap and had just gotten used to it...not true... it just doesn't hurt at all.

Take the advice of pulling with a large 18 gauge and then switching over to a 23 gauge to inject... works like a charm.

[Jupiter2]

Bower, I'll have to take your word for it. But it may be that your just not allergic to pain like I am lol.

On another note, I wonder if you folks could give me some guidance on the usage of supplements while doing TRT. Is there anything I should stay away from? Was thinking about ZMA to increase my HGH production, and maybe continuing with creatine and NO2 products. I want to say that I might have seen something in a thread on this forum about saw palmetto. My dad had prostate cancer years ago and I've been using it as a prevention supplement for some time. I've heard Lycopene might be an alternative. Any thoughts and/or comments?

[forrest_and_trees]

It's good to have an AI on hand, but I wouldn't take it at all right out of the gate.

I hate to sound ignorant, however, what exactly is, "AI"? Are you referring to an anti-aromatization / Estrogen blockers?

[zaggahamma]

I hate to sound ignorant, however, what exactly is, "AI"? Are you referring to an anti-aromatization / Estrogen blockers?

dont think ed will mind me answering for him but YUP

[forrest_and_trees]

dont think ed will mind me answering for him but YUP

Cool- Thanks!

[nwjt]

Just for comparison, I'm on 200 mg per week right now. My 10 week supply was $20 USD copay since my insurance covers it The "charge" on it was $100 USD.

BTW, the bloodwork ran nearly $2000 USD and all I payed was a $20 copay. And people bitch about health insurance LOL.