Random thoughts on TRT and this board.

**flatscat** · 03-21-2011, 06:51 AM

bump for additions

**bass** · 03-21-2011, 09:35 AM

Bravo Flats! excellent post! this thread is a classic example why #4 point on your list is so important to pay attention to! I've leaned so much more from this forum than my family doc and the clinic!

**black6** · 03-21-2011, 03:56 PM

Great post. I have learned so much on this board and read it almost everyday and have burned up the "search feature". I fly down to the clinic i have selected on the 30th. Cant wait. Going down with so much more knowledge then I ever thought.

Edit: Sticky this thread. Great info on the basics of HRT.

**flatscat** · 05-05-2011, 07:21 AM

bump for newbs and additions

**bass** · 05-05-2011, 11:34 AM

here is a good one in case you get way too horny while on TRT and your wife can't keep up with you!

Originally Posted by flatscat

Give it some time - let her see how it has changed not only your body, but your confidence and the way you treat her. Back off the cave man hit her in the head and drag her to the bed talk all the time and let her get to know the new you again.
Flats

**NOSUPERMODEL** · 05-05-2011, 01:53 PM

Great thread. I am very new to this and am trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible.

**flatscat** · 08-03-2011, 11:14 AM

Time for Resurrection - read newbs and add vets.

**flatscat** · 08-13-2011, 08:30 AM

Aight, I gotta get somthin off my chest.

While I have no doubt all the guys and gals on this board have nothing but great intentions, and are here to help everyone, there is a disturbing trend that has been rearing it's head for a while now. Let me explain.....

The trend is lending itself to portraying trt as a massively complicated process. People stressing out about a couple of pg/ml on there E2, and having to nail down levels to an impossible exact number. Folks saying that you need to inject yourself with something 5-10 times a week to maintain constant levels, and on and on is quite intimidating to some.

We have to realize that like everything else in life, one can make hrt as simple or as complicated as they wish. One thing is for sure - no one has any business drilling down to the tiniest minutia of this treatment until they have established the main goal - which is to raise a low t level, and maintain in range numbers for the other levels that the added t effects, and to feel like themselves again. This is accomplished fairly easily as we all know.

The addition of an AI and HCG are good things and needed things, but geeze there is something to be said about keeping a protocol simple at first.

And let's not forget there are guys who have no insurance, and not much money who can only afford maybe to run t and an Ai, and no way to pay the three thousand dollars that a complete b/w would cost without insurance. These folks need the treatment, and can do just fine with t and an ai if needed.

All we are doing sometimes is making folks question there protocol, and even how they feel - although they thought they were feeling fine before they read some of this stuff.

I am not saying we can't debate twice a week or three times a week injections of t, or daily doses of adex, or eod injections of hcg, or additional creams and on and on. But what I am saying is due to the lack of numerous and frequent studies that really prove some of what is being said here, we should all give advise and comments that are prefaced by "this has been my experience", or "my physician said", or I read in this book......

The real value of this board come from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses.

Flats

**zaggahamma** · 08-13-2011, 04:13 PM

well said

i have actually done well on test and ai alone for 5 plus years...

i think vetteman used to preach the 15-30 or 20-35(e2 optimal ranges) maybe even 20-40 e2 zone....but made a well know name for the good ration but meaning more how you felt...."the sweet spot"....

**Bigfoot66** · 08-13-2011, 06:09 PM

There's another site that basically scares the hell out of you anytime you post bc of lab work being off, lack of BW and then prescribes a list of over 50 tests.

I agree that TRT is not a rocket science but easily could be made one. My first year on injections were hard bc I didn't know HOW I was supposed to feel. The effects are not immediate, and when you calm down and take it a day at a time you find the sweet spot.

In short, opinions above mine are dead on!

**PitMaster** · 08-13-2011, 11:41 PM

damn good read guys....thank you...bump

**terraj** · 08-13-2011, 11:52 PM

soild thread....rare

**flatscat** · 08-19-2011, 11:55 AM

Thanks Terraj

**PPC** · 08-19-2011, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

I am not saying we can't debate twice a week or three times a week injections of t, or daily doses of adex, or eod injections of hcg , or additional creams and on and on. But what I am saying is due to the lack of numerous and frequent studies that really prove some of what is being said here, we should all give advise and comments that are prefaced by "this has been my experience", or "my physician said", or I read in this book......

The real value of this board come from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses.

Flats

This is so true. Glad you got it off your chest and sprinkled us all with some real grains of truth.

On some boards it seems anyone who dares to offer any other experience or opinion that deviates from the three legged and sometimes precarious protocol of T, HCG and AI - is made to feel like a fool. We (as yet) just do not have the studies proving to be true what some people tout as TRT doctrine. Truths will come to the surface as people share their own experiences and time goes on. All respond differently.

Case in point...my husband did EOD injections of T, HCG and he used an AI for a full year. He actually feels a lot better simply by using androgel . This may be rare but it is his reality. HCG does not float his boat. AI's just keep him running in circles.

**flatscat** · 08-19-2011, 02:17 PM

Thanks for sharing P

**zaggahamma** · 08-19-2011, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by PPC

This is so true. Glad you got it off your chest and sprinkled us all with some real grains of truth.

On some boards it seems anyone who dares to offer any other experience or opinion that deviates from the three legged and sometimes precarious protocol of T, HCG and AI - is made to feel like a fool. We (as yet) just do not have the studies proving to be true what some people tout as TRT doctrine. Truths will come to the surface as people share their own experiences and time goes on. All respond differently.

Case in point...my husband did EOD injections of T, HCG and he used an AI for a full year. He actually feels a lot better simply by using androgel. This may be rare but it is his reality. HCG does not float his boat. AI's just keep him running in circles.

3 magic words

**flatscat** · 10-26-2011, 04:19 PM

maybe this little post needs to be visited by the newbs AND the olds....

**steroid.com 1** · 10-26-2011, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

maybe this little post needs to be visited by the newbs AND the olds....

It does and here's why:

"The real value of this board comes from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses".

Thanks bro!

**ConArmas** · 11-13-2011, 12:18 AM

Thanks for your great insight Flastcat. I have been a bit intimidated by the thought of all this and you have given me a measure of comfort, to move ahead and keep getting educated...

**ecdysone** · 11-13-2011, 09:41 AM

Very nicely worded summary!

Could think of two things to add:

(a) for the younger guys to consider alternatives to the lifetime of TRT, such as HCG , clomid, or even AI-monotherapy first. Yes, I know they are probably for a lifetime too, but "re-starts" are possible, and they offer some advantages;

(b) don't forget that the endocrine system in the body also include the adrenals (cortisol) and thyroid and sometimes an imbalance in either of them can mimic or strongly influence what you are feeling on the testosterone side (HPTA imbalances).

**yannick35** · 11-13-2011, 02:24 PM

Been put on Vit D 10000 IU one pill a week along with my treatments, i am starting to believe that my medical doctor is a god among men LOL, been taking it for 2 months now. I also take cod liver oil.

Thanks faltscat amazing post.

**APIs** · 11-13-2011, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

But what I am saying is due to the lack of numerous and frequent studies that really prove some of what is being said here, we should all give advise and comments that are prefaced by "this has been my experience", or "my physician said", or I read in this book......

The real value of this board come from our own personal experiences, and not from speculation or intelligent guesses.

Funny, this very thing was discussed with my Doc during our Quarterly Teleconference last week. At 100 mgs Test Cyp e4d my levels are coming back at 1491 & 47.5 free. All other blood work is coming back perfect even the Lipids with an HDL of 62. After telling him that I feel great, he didnt want to touch a thing. He explained that some in the field would back down a patient with a level approaching 1500. But he feels there's really no scientific basis for this & goes more on how the patient feels, backed up by actual BW figures. He explained that "they" (the Doctors) just really don't know, as the science is still growing. Some of his patients @ 100 mgs e4d come back with Lipid & HDL levels that are in the toilet. Everyone is different he said...

**flatscat** · 11-14-2011, 08:08 AM

thanks for everyone's input - all great comments!

**JohnnyVegas** · 11-14-2011, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

The trend is lending itself to portraying trt as a massively complicated process. People stressing out about a couple of pg/ml on there E2, and having to nail down levels to an impossible exact number. Folks saying that you need to inject yourself with something 5-10 times a week to maintain constant levels, and on and on is quite intimidating to some.

We have to realize that like everything else in life, one can make hrt as simple or as complicated as they wish. One thing is for sure - no one has any business drilling down to the tiniest minutia of this treatment until they have established the main goal - which is to raise a low t level, and maintain in range numbers for the other levels that the added t effects, and to feel like themselves again. This is accomplished fairly easily as we all know.

The addition of an AI and HCG are good things and needed things, but geeze there is something to be said about keeping a protocol simple at first.

Amen brother. I think it is because many think EVERYTHING going on in their body is a result of their Test levels. We can become so obsessed with this treatment that every pain, sniffle, erection, pimple and headache seems to be caused by our Test levels...and it just isn't true. Many of us are in our 40s, and we need more care than just an injection a week. Sometimes we have depression, or joint pain that is not related to our levels. TRT should be the beginning of a much healthier way of living, not the end of our search for health.

The other problem is the patience required. I constantly see people wanting to self-prescribe an AI because of a little elbow pain or because they are tired. Then, two days later they are freaking out because they got a headache and now maybe their E2 is bottoming out and they lower the dose. They are in a constant panic that their numbers are all wrong and say they just can't seem to get things dialed in.

I am not trying to take away anything from the guys that have a hard time getting things right. I am simply agreeing that sometimes we are our own worst enemy by overcomplicating the process, or by demanding instant and complete health from a hormone shot.

**bigboy67** · 11-14-2011, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

Amen brother. I think it is because many think EVERYTHING going on in their body is a result of their Test levels. We can become so obsessed with this treatment that every pain, sniffle, erection, pimple and headache seems to be caused by our Test levels...and it just isn't true. Many of us are in our 40s, and we need more care than just an injection a week. Sometimes we have depression, or joint pain that is not related to our levels. TRT should be the beginning of a much healthier way of living, not the end of our search for health.

The other problem is the patience required. I constantly see people wanting to self-prescribe an AI because of a little elbow pain or because they are tired. Then, two days later they are freaking out because they got a headache and now maybe their E2 is bottoming out and they lower the dose. They are in a constant panic that their numbers are all wrong and say they just can't seem to get things dialed in.

I am not trying to take away anything from the guys that have a hard time getting things right. I am simply agreeing that sometimes we are our own worst enemy by overcomplicating the process, or by demanding instant and complete health from a hormone shot.

x1000! Everybody wants to get it right, and they think that if they make a change now they will know if it was the right decision in a few days, when in reality, you should wait like 2-4 weeks to really see. It is the hardest thing to do, wait until your body levels out

**bass** · 11-14-2011, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

Amen brother. I think it is because many think EVERYTHING going on in their body is a result of their Test levels. We can become so obsessed with this treatment that every pain, sniffle, erection, pimple and headache seems to be caused by our Test levels...and it just isn't true. Many of us are in our 40s, and we need more care than just an injection a week. Sometimes we have depression, or joint pain that is not related to our levels. TRT should be the beginning of a much healthier way of living, not the end of our search for health.

The other problem is the patience required. I constantly see people wanting to self-prescribe an AI because of a little elbow pain or because they are tired. Then, two days later they are freaking out because they got a headache and now maybe their E2 is bottoming out and they lower the dose. They are in a constant panic that their numbers are all wrong and say they just can't seem to get things dialed in.

I am not trying to take away anything from the guys that have a hard time getting things right. I am simply agreeing that sometimes we are our own worst enemy by overcomplicating the process, or by demanding instant and complete health from a hormone shot.

Guilty!!!!! LOL! i did that at the beginning because i really didn't know what to expect or how things worked. it is a legit reaction for all newbies i don't hold it against them. but your point is well taken and i am glad you posted it here so the newbies can have a better understanding of how this treatment works and what to expect! its not wrong to post anything that seems abnormal especially if you are doing something else besides the maintenance TRT, we don't want to discourage newbies from posting their symptoms even if its on a daily basis, the more details the better we can help them!

**JohnnyVegas** · 11-14-2011, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by bass

Guilty!!!!! LOL! i did that at the beginning because i really didn't know what to expect or how things worked. it is a legit reaction for all newbies i don't hold it against them. but your point is well taken and i am glad you posted it here so the newbies can have a better understanding of how this treatment works and what to expect! its not wrong to post anything that seems abnormal especially if you are doing something else besides the maintenance TRT, we don't want to discourage newbies from posting their symptoms even if its on a daily basis, the more details the better we can help them!

I think everyone does it. I am impatient, and I am a massive over-thinker. You and I have discussed that I just plane got lucky with my treatment. I haven't changed it since starting last De***ber. Well, I self-diagnosed needing an AI, got sore joints, stopped using it and then had blood work done only to find out I don't need an AI. So I did exactly the thing I used as an example.

You are right that everyone should definitely post anything that seems abnormal! Hell, post everything that is normal too. We are all helped by everyone sharing.

Sticking a needle in my body was a bit traumatic, but was then followed by a "hurry up and wait" mentality that I struggled with. Three and a half days until I do anything else? Every day I wondered what was happening to my body. I think any normal person would freak out a little bit.

**flatscat** · 11-14-2011, 03:18 PM

It is our collective experience and knowledge that can give newbs and some olds the confidence to push through that anxiety and reach their goal.

We all have opinions about this process. And there are many studies that both affirm and contradict what we and physicians are saying. Truth is, the studies are a starting point, some words to think about. They may or may not be legit. Our stories help guide and ultimately help transform men from what they used to be to what they should/want to be.... Let us all never forget that when we are doling out strongly worded advise.

I am really so proud to be a member of this community. We are doing great things here.

Thanks to all who participate and who are seeking better health.

Flats

**bass** · 11-14-2011, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

It is our collective experience and knowledge that can give newbs and some olds the confidence to push through that anxiety and reach their goal.

We all have opinions about this process. And there are many studies that both affirm and contradict what we and physicians are saying. Truth is, the studies are a starting point, some words to think about. They may or may not be legit. Our stories help guide and ultimately help transform men from what they used to be to what they should/want to be.... Let us all never forget that when we are doling out strongly worded advise.

I am really so proud to be a member of this community. We are doing great things here.

Thanks to all who participate and who are seeking better health.

Flats

more magic words. i wonder how many doctors come here to learn from our experiences?! after all we are still Guinea pigs when it comes to TRT.

**ecdysone** · 11-14-2011, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by bass

after all we are still Guinea pigs when it comes to TRT.

Funny thing, after all of these years, they now finally realize that low test causes earlier-death in men from a variety of organ failures. These studies involved thousands of patients in dozens of studies. BUT what they don't know, even today, is what level repla***ent test should be targeted to, or what the effect of long-term TRT really is.

Just a guess, but it will take another 10-20 years until any of us will know if we are doing the right thing!

**flatscat** · 11-19-2011, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by ecdysone

Funny thing, after all of these years, they now finally realize that low test causes earlier-death in men from a variety of organ failures. These studies involved thousands of patients in dozens of studies. BUT what they don't know, even today, is what level repla***ent test should be targeted to, or what the effect of long-term TRT really is.

Just a guess, but it will take another 10-20 years until any of us will know if we are doing the right thing!

Maybe that is what big pharma is worried about - sell a crap load of expensive meds VS inexpensive hrt therapy meds/hormones - - - i think trt can do more to extend life than three quarters of the meds out there.

**JD250** · 11-19-2011, 10:48 AM

^^^^ bingo!!! It's a multi billion dollar industry.......they can't have millions of people in good health.......the share holders wont make money.

**Drmagic** · 11-19-2011, 11:57 AM

Great post flats, I sat through a 3 hour lecture on vitamin D and was astounded when they showed stats that 75% yes that is correct, 75% of the US population is truely deficient in vitamin D. I had never drawn a vitamin D before at that point (2 years ago). I started checking everyone of my patients and that number is almost right on the money. Diet and sunlight won't do it for most people when you are this low. I start people on 5000 IU daily and it can take 6 - 12 months to get up to the desired range of 60 - 80 (nl range 30 - 100). Low vitamin D levels put you at an increased risk of colon cancer among others so it is not a supplement you want to be deficient in. There was some pretty compelling research that suggested increased risk for skin cancer as well, I think that corelation will be proved eventually. Great thing is, it is a dirt cheap supplement and an easy fix. You can take to much though so monitor levels if you are taking high doses. 2000 IU daily is very safe but may not get you to the optimal level.

**BigBadWolf** · 11-19-2011, 12:29 PM

I'm afraid doc when you reach 50 post your inbox is going to exploded!!! Lol

**PetrX** · 11-19-2011, 03:14 PM

My dr put me on vitamin d -50,000 iu a week pill for 8 weeks plus a daily 1000 iu in addition before giving me my script for test...the dr and I were shocked because I drink a gallon of milk a day plus lots of calcium and I'm always out on the sun since I live on the beach..its been 9 weeks now and it made a huge difference, feel way better overall, didn't know the importance of vitamin d

**BigBadWolf** · 11-19-2011, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Drmagic

Great post flats, I sat through a 3 hour lecture on vitamin D and was astounded when they showed stats that 75% yes that is correct, 75% of the US population is truely deficient in vitamin D. I had never drawn a vitamin D before at that point (2 years ago). I started checking everyone of my patients and that number is almost right on the money. Diet and sunlight won't do it for most people when you are this low. I start people on 5000 IU daily and it can take 6 - 12 months to get up to the desired range of 60 - 80 (nl range 30 - 100). Low vitamin D levels put you at an increased risk of colon cancer among others so it is not a supplement you want to be deficient in. There was some pretty compelling research that suggested increased risk for skin cancer as well, I think that corelation will be proved eventually. Great thing is, it is a dirt cheap supplement and an easy fix. You can take to much though so monitor levels if you are taking high doses. 2000 IU daily is very safe but may not get you to the optimal level.

Is this shots or pill form? Someone anyone?

**BigBadWolf** · 11-19-2011, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Honkeykong

Is this shots or pill form? Someone anyone?

Bump^^

**PetrX** · 11-19-2011, 08:32 PM

Pill

**Drmagic** · 11-20-2011, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Honkeykong

Is this shots or pill form? Someone anyone?

I use oral route mostly, have used injectables in the past but if your gut is working oral should be fine, just know it may take up to a year to get to the optimal level, you don't need to be in a hurry. always take D3 with food that has some fat in it as it is a fat soluble vitamin so it increases absorption when taken with meals. There are articles out there on once weekly dosing etc but I find it easier for my patients to just add it in to their daily regimen. I sell a 5000 iu capsule for $11 for 100 capsules so it is a dirt cheap supplement that you can get at any good health food store.