SHBG and E2; TRT Dosage Question

[Bigfoot66]

Vetteman asked me to post my latest results with hope of getting a few questions answered by him.

43 y/o, 225 lbs, 6'3", about 16.5% bf
Began TRT about 3 years ago with TT at 312. Had typical symptoms of andropause. Never knew what baseline E2 was when we started. Dosage was 1 tube Testim every day for about 1 year.

Year later TT plummeted to 195, then to 105. Did have some muscular growth and weight gain; outside of that, all abt. the same.

Moved to Cyponate injectible. Have moved around with dosages over last 2 years. Highest was 80 mg every 2 days, and now 50 mg every 2 days with .25Arimidex every 4th day.

Here were my July 1 results from Quest:

DHEA-S 191 (45-345)
E2 31 (13-54)
TT 845 (250-1100)
Free 212.9 (45-224)
SHBG 17 (9-45)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6-5.1)
Bioavailable T 428.6 (110-575)

April 2010 results doing 120 every 3 days (Quest with same ranges)

DHEA-S 207
E2 69
Prolactin 9.3 (2.0-18)
TT 809
Free 227.7
SHBG 12
Albumin 4.6
Bioavailable T 478.2

The issue: I am wondering if this every 2 day dosage is accomplishing anything except a bunch of pricks in the glutes. Do you think going to a 2X a week dosage of same amount would make any difference?

I will say that injectibles had significant positive effect on muscular growth, depression, and good weight gain. Had the spare tire, and that is almost gone. Libido comes and goes, as do the hot spells and night sweats.

Probably important to know that i take 100 mg Zoloft and 150 mg Wellbutrin daily, and have done so for several years.

Apologize for long post, but the whole story is important here. Ask any questions, any of you who have some insight.

Thanks.

[Swifto]

100mg every 2 days for HRT and 200mg every 2 days for HRT? Do you mean weeks?

[Bigfoot66]

Sorry...wrong calculations. I corrected in above post.

100mg every 2 days for HRT and 200mg every 2 days for HRT? Do you mean weeks?

[Vettester]

Vetteman asked me to post my latest results with hope of getting a few questions answered by him.

43 y/o, 225 lbs, 6'3", about 16.5% bf
Began TRT about 3 years ago with TT at 312. Had typical symptoms of andropause. Never knew what baseline E2 was when we started. Dosage was 1 tube Testim every day for about 1 year.

Year later TT plummeted to 195, then to 105. Did have some muscular growth and weight gain; outside of that, all abt. the same.

Moved to Cyponate injectible. Have moved around with dosages over last 2 years. Highest was 80 mg every 2 days, and now 50 mg every 2 days with .25Arimidex every 4th day.

Here were my July 1 results from Quest:

DHEA-S 191 (45-345)
E2 31 (13-54)
TT 845 (250-1100)
Free 212.9 (45-224)
SHBG 17 (9-45)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6-5.1)
Bioavailable T 428.6 (110-575)

April 2010 results doing 120 every 3 days (Quest with same ranges)

DHEA-S 207
E2 69
Prolactin 9.3 (2.0-18)
TT 809
Free 227.7
SHBG 12
Albumin 4.6
Bioavailable T 478.2

The issue: I am wondering if this every 2 day dosage is accomplishing anything except a bunch of pricks in the glutes. Do you think going to a 2X a week dosage of same amount would make any difference?

I will say that injectibles had significant positive effect on muscular growth, depression, and good weight gain. Had the spare tire, and that is almost gone. Libido comes and goes, as do the hot spells and night sweats.

Probably important to know that i take 100 mg Zoloft and 150 mg Wellbutrin daily, and have done so for several years.

Apologize for long post, but the whole story is important here. Ask any questions, any of you who have some insight.

Thanks.

Welcome to the forum, glad you joined. IMO, you made a good move by going with the injections. I didn't respond with transdermal "T" therapy very well either. I was initially on Gel and had some unstable experiences after about 6 months.

All and all, your scores look pretty good. Your free "T" is up there a little bit, which obviously reflects the SHBG and albumin score. This isn't a huge variable except that it just opens the door for more sides to occur due to the stronger possibility of conversion downstream.

On your protocol ... I personally don't think you need to inject that much and that frequently. I only inject 1x per week and do just fine. Some guys will go 2x. Again, your numbers look to be pretty good overall, but I don't know if that's the ideal route to go for a long-term program.

Here's a thought on a possible option that you might consider:
Test Cyp 150mg/wk (or 75mg x 2/wk)
HCG - 200iu to 300iu 2x or 3x week (This will help keep some of your own natural testosterone in production) * Permitting you have more of a secondary condition with no primary testicle issues.
Pregnenolone and/or DHEA - Suggested transdermal. This will help back the hormonal pathway, helping to balance and optimize the endocrine system in general. Your DHEA will continue to decrease as you get older.
Arimidex - Dosage based on your personal need to control estrogen.

Do you include B12 with your injections? If not, take a close look at it. Maybe you can start to pull back off of the Anti-D's now that you're dialing in your HRT program. You probably were put on them due to the symptoms of low "T".

[Bigfoot66]

All makes sense. I'm going to make the move and do what you said.

2 questions...what is the typical dosage of B12 weekly;?....and what specifically does an increased DHEA level accomplish?

Thanks for the advice.

Welcome to the forum, glad you joined. IMO, you made a good move by going with the injections. I didn't respond with transdermal "T" therapy very well either. I was initially on Gel and had some unstable experiences after about 6 months.

All and all, your scores look pretty good. Your free "T" is up there a little bit, which obviously reflects the SHBG and albumin score. This isn't a huge variable except that it just opens the door for more sides to occur due to the stronger possibility of conversion downstream.

On your protocol ... I personally don't think you need to inject that much and that frequently. I only inject 1x per week and do just fine. Some guys will go 2x. Again, your numbers look to be pretty good overall, but I don't know if that's the ideal route to go for a long-term program.

Here's a thought on a possible option that you might consider:
Test Cyp 150mg/wk (or 75mg x 2/wk)
HCG - 200iu to 300iu 2x or 3x week (This will help keep some of your own natural testosterone in production) * Permitting you have more of a secondary condition with no primary testicle issues.
Pregnenolone and/or DHEA - Suggested transdermal. This will help back the hormonal pathway, helping to balance and optimize the endocrine system in general. Your DHEA will continue to decrease as you get older.
Arimidex - Dosage based on your personal need to control estrogen.

Do you include B12 with your injections? If not, take a close look at it. Maybe you can start to pull back off of the Anti-D's now that you're dialing in your HRT program. You probably were put on them due to the symptoms of low "T".

[Vettester]

Here's a link where I posted earlier today that has a link on DHEA: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=10

On the B12, I take 1,000mcg/wk of Methylcobalamin with my "T" injection. Some guys take more than this, but this amount works good for me.

What's your thoughts about tapering off the Anti-D's? I used to be on them myself several years back. I'm so thankful that I found HRT, which gave me a new lease on life!

[Bigfoot66]

Vetteman: Is this the same thing:

Human Grade Vitamin B12 Injectable Cyanocobalamin 1000mcg/ml?
Understand the DHEA part.

Since my teens I've battled depression. Have been unsuccessful with prior anti anxiety and ADs. Paxil worked for years; but I had all the side effects. In a very stressful job; Paxil quit working; so my doctor made switch to current regimen. You're right in that it may all have been hormone related. If I could get the highs and lows of T regulated I'd probably take the risk and taper back. I imagine my doctor would agree as well.

Man, I appreciate all of your advice. I've asked questions re this earlier but honestly I probably wasn't asking the right questions.

Here's a link where I posted earlier today that has a link on DHEA: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=10

On the B12, I take 1,000mcg/wk of Methylcobalamin with my "T" injection. Some guys take more than this, but this amount works good for me.

What's your thoughts about tapering off the Anti-D's? I used to be on them myself several years back. I'm so thankful that I found HRT, which gave me a new lease on life!

[Vettester]

Here's a link that I've posted up here before by Dr. D'Adamo: http://www.dadamo.com/B2blogs/blogs/...alamin?blog=27 I really like a lot of the things he does! Obviously, I'm sold on the methyl version of B-12, but cyancobalamin is easier to get a hold of and is less $$. I've used it before and wouldn't hesitate to use it again if for some reason I couldn't get any of the methyl.

Understand completely about stress and anxiety situations. If you have certain social anxiety situations, like public speaking or critical thinking sessions, then discuss that subject with your doctor and see if there are other options like maybe an occasional beta blocker.

[Bigfoot66]

Vetteman and anyone else: I need some more assistance.

I did everything you suggested except adding HCG because my MD will not go that route at all. I did adjust the dosage of T to two times a week at 150. I began DHEA at 25 mg every night, and I take .25 Arimidex on days of shot. Once weekly I also added B12 to my T shot at 1000 dosage.

Two weeks have gone by. One thing GOOD is that the sweating has stopped. But I am down and out. I don't want to leave the couch on the weekends, and by Friday I've had my fill of dealing with people.

I have maintained my gym routine and do feel better after I finished. I probably should increase my cardio. No changes in weight or BP...just have no get up and go anymore.

Am I doing something wrong? Does your experience suggest something different?

Thanks in advance.

[pittbulldad]

Vetteman and anyone else: I need some more assistance.

I did everything you suggested except adding HCG because my MD will not go that route at all. I did adjust the dosage of T to two times a week at 150. I began DHEA at 25 mg every night, and I take .25 Arimidex on days of shot. Once weekly I also added B12 to my T shot at 1000 dosage.

Two weeks have gone by. One thing GOOD is that the sweating has stopped. But I am down and out. I don't want to leave the couch on the weekends, and by Friday I've had my fill of dealing with people.

I have maintained my gym routine and do feel better after I finished. I probably should increase my cardio. No changes in weight or BP...just have no get up and go anymore.

Am I doing something wrong? Does your experience suggest something different?

Thanks in advance.

I have found that if i keep my exercise level up.. my mood is also much better especially on TRT/HRT.. i don't know if its from increase endorphines or something else.. but it certainly helps even cardio

[Vettester]

BF, is the 150mg a total for the week, or are you saying that you're taking 150mg x 2/wk? I think you're taking 75mg x 2/wk, but just clarifying it with you.

Also, have you run any labs since April. Looking back, I see your E2 went up to 69. It wouldn't hurt to bump up your Adex dosage to at least 0.5mg x 2/wk, even 3x til you get it back in the 30's.

I'm really not sure what to tell you about the couch situation. Again, there's Anti-D's in your program and I don't know how that's all playing out with your HRT. IMO, they just get in the way with the body trying to restore it's natural balance and rhythm. Also, is there any sleep issues? I know all of us here get our moments where we just want to throw the towel in. However, at the end of the day you got to set those goals, pull your arse off the sofa, and get it moving. In your situation, I'd run some more BW including the lipids, CBC's, metabolic, etc., just to make sure nothing's having an adverse effect on you. If your bill of health is clean, then talk to your doctor about what steps you need to take to make improvements (without his lobbyist pharmaceutical counterparts).

[Bigfoot66]

Vetteman:

First, theses were my results in JULY from QUEST:

DHEA-S 191 (45-345)
E2 31 (13-54)
TT 845 (250-1100)
Free 212.9 (45-224)
SHBG 17 (9-45)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6-5.1)
Bioavailable T 428.6 (110-575)

I am taking 150 a week (75 2X).

Based on the accurate direction you give to so many on this forum, you are probably right on all accounts. What I'll do is go to the .50 Arimidex twice weekly. Maybe b/c I bumped up to 75 2X a week the E2 shot up again. The reason we divided the dosage into several times a week was because the E2 got past 100 on a 200 mg 1X a week.

Do I stay on the DHEA at 25? Would that be a culprit?

Sleep is fine; I hit the pillow and wake up 8 hours later with no awakening at night.

Probably just need to give myself a swift kick.

[Vettester]

Dude, my bad ... Your July results were sitting right in front of me, I was fixated on your April results for some reason. Sorry for the mishap. Call it a long day! Just give me a chair shot!

I personally didn't respond very well with DHEA, so I ditched it and went with straight pregnenolone. Preg will convert downstream to DHEA, so it turned out to be a win-win scenario for me. If you think the DHEA is causing some of this then possibly take a look at going with preg. Per advise of my doctor, I am running this on a 6 week cycle, and will repeat in another 3 months.

On the HCG ... Some doctors are just real anal about certain compounds. Let us know if things change and you end up getting some through another doc or clinic.

[Bigfoot66]

When you say you "didn't respond well to DHEA"....what do you mean? What was the reason you decided to go to it? When you look at my DHEA blood level, do you believe it is low?

[Vettester]

When you say you "didn't respond well to DHEA"....what do you mean? What was the reason you decided to go to it? When you look at my DHEA blood level, do you believe it is low?

In my case, I just got this anxious, somewhat hyper feeling. It was just somewhat uncomfortable. The pregnenolone didn't have this effect. As mentioned above, these hormones decline as we get older. There's a lot of speculation with how these hormones play a role in the aging process. Dr. Crisler has discussed the "back fill" ability that these hormones have on the hormonal pathways on his forum and articles. This was one of my attractions for implementing this into my regiment.

Like I mentioned, these hormones decline as we get older. Coincidentally, yours dropped between your posted labs. I don't think that's the normal drop rate over 3 month, but I doubt it's going to see any improvement without exogenous assistance.