New protocol, low dose pyramid? Fluctuating test levels and dopamine sensitivity.

Hi all,

I have been doing a LOT of homework lately, as I have been rethinking a lot of what I was doing for "TRT", and up until very recently had settled into the idea of doing 40mg 2x EW for a total of 80mg, and just keeping it there for consistent blood levels.

This was following a bout of ED, and I had seemed to get that under wraps with increasing cardio and cleaning up my diet.

Then after running a lower dose of test for a while, I my sex drive has crashed.

THis is very fustrating, and what I read most about was how testosterone relates to dopamine, and how sensitivity to dopamine can be reduced over time if the levels stay high.

Well, when I first started a 300mg EW cruise a while back, for six months my libido was in overdrive.

Then the cheese slid off the cracker.

What I now believe happened was that such a dose was giving me a ton of dopamine, and my sex drive was incredible.

Then as I lost sensitivity to dopamine, so went the sex drive. Combined with the effects of long term high test on prolactin, and we got a problem.

Well, we KNOW that natural test is all over the place, you can be 300ng/dl after a long bad day, and 900ng/dl with a raging hard on the next morning.

Well, even if we keep testosterone at say 700ng/dl, couldn't we still burn out the responce to dopamine?

It seems this has happened to many here, and we got a lot of guys running cialis and still the problem is no sex drive, no desire, even with the level of a waking 24 year old.

My guess is it is because we have such level ALL THE TIME?

I know some guys here prefer the small crash they get and inject 100mg every 10 days, as going to the shot again makes them feel great? (feedback on this is appreciated too, I want to hear the theories on it especially if it relates to the dopamine sensitivity)

Then I read this: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...works-for-me.&
where jlguitar has seemed to devise a way to keep upping the test for a bit, and thus the dopamine, followed by a 2 week layoff, and then going back up, claiming it keeeps his libido good.

There is some logic to this, and I'm thinking of trying it with 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180 then off 2 weeks, then restart.

Or even 80,90,100,110,120,130 then off 2 weeks restart.

The goal is to keep the libido up very high, and it seems like consistent levels may not in fact be the key to this after all...

Lets discuss...

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Originally Posted by meathead320

Hi all,

I have been doing a LOT of homework lately, as I have been rethinking a lot of what I was doing for "TRT", and up until very recently had settled into the idea of doing 40mg 2x EW for a total of 80mg, and just keeping it there for consistent blood levels.

This was following a bout of ED, and I had seemed to get that under wraps with increasing cardio and cleaning up my diet.

Then after running a lower dose of test for a while, I my sex drive has crashed.

THis is very fustrating, and what I read most about was how testosterone relates to dopamine, and how sensitivity to dopamine can be reduced over time if the levels stay high.

Well, when I first started a 300mg EW cruise a while back, for six months my libido was in overdrive.

Then the cheese slid off the cracker.

What I now believe happened was that such a dose was giving me a ton of dopamine, and my sex drive was incredible.

Then as I lost sensitivity to dopamine, so went the sex drive. Combined with the effects of long term high test on prolactin, and we got a problem.

Well, we KNOW that natural test is all over the place, you can be 300ng/dl after a long bad day, and 900ng/dl with a raging hard on the next morning.

Well, even if we keep testosterone at say 700ng/dl, couldn't we still burn out the responce to dopamine?

It seems this has happened to many here, and we got a lot of guys running cialis and still the problem is no sex drive, no desire, even with the level of a waking 24 year old.

My guess is it is because we have such level ALL THE TIME?

I know some guys here prefer the small crash they get and inject 100mg every 10 days, as going to the shot again makes them feel great? (feedback on this is appreciated too, I want to hear the theories on it especially if it relates to the dopamine sensitivity)

Then I read this: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...works-for-me.&
where jlguitar has seemed to devise a way to keep upping the test for a bit, and thus the dopamine, followed by a 2 week layoff, and then going back up, claiming it keeeps his libido good.

There is some logic to this, and I'm thinking of trying it with 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180 then off 2 weeks, then restart.

Or even 80,90,100,110,120,130 then off 2 weeks restart.

The goal is to keep the libido up very high, and it seems like consistent levels may not in fact be the key to this after all...

Lets discuss...

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I've seen one guy post a similar protocol and swore by it.....if i remember he didnt use an AI with this protocol

What I'm wondering is if the 2 weeks off at the end of this protocol, following the highest dose is 2 weeks from the last injection, OR 2 weeks after when the next would be so it would actually be 3 weeks after the last shot?

I don't think I'd be starting at 150 and going up to 200, but maybe 80, or 100 for a starting point.

well i couldnt have posted it any better than you did!!! I wish i would have done my homework better,cause im going through excatly what you are talking about...my Endo has me on 600mg/every 10 days....that is way to high,im on a roller coaster ride with my hormones,and im having to take cialis as well.i need to alot more researching on dopamine,and im going to get a second opinion from another Endo..and ive never had my E2 levels checked,my Endo said that with that clinical dose of test,my estrogen level shouldnt be high,...my opinion...i beg to differ,thats why im getting a 2nd opinion.thank you for the thread

You didn't really provide enough specifics about your current protocol and how long you have been actually doing what amount. So I have to ask the following based on an expience I had:

Is it possible you were doing larger amounts of T, dropped down to 80 mg/week and felt great for 2 (maybe even 3) weeks then started having issues? If so, your 80 mg/wk protocol was not a steady state 80 mg/week. You still had the 300mg/week (???) in your system so your T levels were very high and coming down. It was during the period they were coming down that you hit the sweet spot. But after a couple weeks you passed through the sweet spot and were low.

Another factor is that the body -- at least my body -- seems to hate swings in hormone levels. When I take too much AI and my E2 crashes I feel like crap. But if I keep the E2 there at that low level, after a week or two my body adjusts and feels better. Not great, but not the crash crappy bad feeling I get with big shifts in levels.

Could be I did pass through my sweet spot.

Mostly what I have been looking up lately is the sensitivity to dopamine.

From what I am finding, testosterone helps us produce dopamine, which is the third rail for sexual arousal.

Right now my issue is not so much ED, as I was previously thinking, but rather low drive. The fire just aint there.

Now when I had first gone all the way up to 300mg on the last cruise, even with no AI, I was extremely horny, for several months. My morning wood was like a lead pipe, and my heart rate would go through the roof when I got horny, like I just needed to get off, and bad.

Then it slowly is changed.

I drop the dose down to 120, then to 80mg, and sure enough after a bit the fire came back, but then poof gone again.

Fustrating for sure.

Obviously health is a big factor, and I think stable levels are fine for cholesterol, BP etc..., and I do not plan on going back up to 300mg, or even staying on anything as high as 200mg year round, simply too much for me.

However, I am thinking stable levels may be an issue in making me insensitive to dopamine.

I may not inject myself for 3 weeks, and see how I feel if I pop back onto 100mg. Maybe get those initial effects again, and by upping the dose slightly, by 10mg EW, for 6 weeks, then go off for 2 weeks, this may allow my dopamine receptors to recover, and not be able to addapt to the increasing dopamine too much again until right around when its time to take a short break again.

It sounds like you're suggesting a cycle. I would recommend a slightly higher starting dose than 80, run it for 12 to 14 weeks upping the dose every two weeks until you reach your max then in reverse using same dose's you used going up. Then run your PCT. Talk to your endo and see if he will get you set up with all your PCT gear. I know mine encouraged running for 6 months on, do a PCT and take a month off. I'm sure he would be open to 3-4 months on 1-2 weeks off...maybe your endo will too. Definitely run a good dose of HCG when you're off though or you'll be in the fetal position in your shower, never mind the sex drive of a virgin monk hahaha

Interesting. I can say that when my E2 gets 20+ and my T is 700+ I get very horny. When my E2 drops low because of AI I lose my sex drive. Everything still works fine when stiumlated, but no real desire, little morning wood.

The situation where you cruised at 300 mg and everything was great for a couple months then started deteriorating is a confusing issue. Maybe you were simply too high and it took a while for your body to exhaust itself at that high performance level.

Do you know what your E2 is at now? Also, if you are backing off it could be your T has dropped too low now. Or, maybe your are converting less E2 now because of dropping T levels. Maybe the best bet would be abbreviated labs for T, free T, and E2.

Maybe you need to start over for the hunt for the sweet spot. Personnally, I think no T for 3 weeks is a bit extreme. I would hate to do that unless I was doing PCT during those three weeks. HCG at the very least.

Labs are being done on the 18th, will see how things are around the 21st.

Google PT 141. It is a derivative of Melanotan2. it effects brain chemistry and puts your libido in over drive. Currently available as a nasal spray, and it lasts for hours. Haven't tried it yet. Ordered it, and will be trying it when I go home on vacation here in a few weeks. =)

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

Google PT 141. It is a derivative of Melanotan2. it effects brain chemistry and puts your libido in over drive. Currently available as a nasal spray, and it lasts for hours. Haven't tried it yet. Ordered it, and will be trying it when I go home on vacation here in a few weeks. =)

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what are ANY bad sides (if at all to PT 141)

anyone?

went to google as times advised...pt141 when first came out was a nasal spray? and blood pressure issues were reported? now its subQ injected? am i correct?

guys hit me via pm as i love the beach BUT look at the avy

lol

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

Google PT 141. It is a derivative of Melanotan2. it effects brain chemistry and puts your libido in over drive. Currently available as a nasal spray, and it lasts for hours. Haven't tried it yet. Ordered it, and will be trying it when I go home on vacation here in a few weeks. =)

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As far as I can find, both the PT 141, and M2 work by increasing dopamine.

For most guys that would work great.

My issue is that I think after having been on test for so long, due to it not being both up and down through the days and nights like when its natural, the consistently high testosterone may have desensitized me to the dopamine itself.

So increasing dopamine will not help matters if I am not responding to it.

The good news is dopamine receptors can recover when they are not exposed for a while, so I actually am considering cycling of the TRT, and even going back to a weekly, Or even Every 10 Day regiment, actually allowing myself to be low for a few days. Sure there would be some down curves there, and some days where it would be a bit low.

The idea is to add some small breaks in there, not high half the time, and low half the time, but to actually have some times, maybe 1/5th, of the time where the testosterone level is allowed to get low.

dopamine levels were also somthing i was researching in comparison to test, My ideas were to do sumthing with a short ester like 15mg of prop every day, or suspension to keep fluctuating levels too promote dopamine. Also I think prop peaks are around 12 hours, so to keep things more natural, inject around 10pm every night you would wake up with peak levels and they would lower threw the day similar to natural production. Also prop and suspension can fit throw 30 gauge half inch insulin needles just fine so the idea of everyday poking wouldnt be of a bother. If i go back on hrt i will try that method but right now, Im young and feel i can recover also with a little help from triptorelin, ive been off for about 4 weeks and libido is still great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jpkman

what are ANY bad sides (if at all to PT 141)

anyone?

went to google as times advised...pt141 when first came out was a nasal spray? and blood pressure issues were reported? now its subQ injected? am i correct?

guys hit me via pm as i love the beach BUT look at the avy

lol

:)

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JP, most of the time it is sold just like hcg, it is a peptide and needs to be reconstituted then injected. It is also available as a nasal spray (though I have not tried that form). The sides are identical to MT II, but NO pigmentation changes. Those are, facial flushing and upset stomach (for about 15 min's) which can be helped or eliminated with an antihistamine, and a weird yawning-stretching response for some. Oh yeah, EXTREME WOOD, which is great, but can show up at awkward times and can be very frequent.

I don't buy this dopamine sensitivity idea at all. When you have lots of sex it sets up a high conversion of dopamine to adrenaline though, which temporarily increases sex drive alone, but makes you an adrenaline junky/sex fiend. Sooner or later you'll have so much sex that your liver will go nuts and your estrogen and SHBG will be driven up for less free testosterone in the blood stream. That's basically what happened to you. Get E2 and SHBG/free test tested.

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Originally Posted by prop402

I don't buy this dopamine sensitivity idea at all. When you have lots of sex it sets up a high conversion of dopamine to adrenaline though, which temporarily increases sex drive alone, but makes you an adrenaline junky/sex fiend. Sooner or later you'll have so much sex that your liver will go nuts and your estrogen and SHBG will be driven up for less free testosterone in the blood stream. That's basically what happened to you. Get E2 and SHBG/free test tested.

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Hey Prop, why dont you start a thread and introduce yourself to this board. Tell us your background, stats and history with trt. You have made some intelligent comments in your 10 posts here, but nothing about yourself.

Flats

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Originally Posted by flatscat

JP, most of the time it is sold just like hcg, it is a peptide and needs to be reconstituted then injected. It is also available as a nasal spray (though I have not tried that form). The sides are identical to MT II, but NO pigmentation changes. Those are, facial flushing and upset stomach (for about 15 min's) which can be helped or eliminated with an antihistamine, and a weird yawning-stretching response for some. Oh yeah, EXTREME WOOD, which is great, but can show up at awkward times and can be very frequent.

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thanks..as i look back at my post, i was inquiring about mt2 for the tan but youre saying that the pt141 and the mt2 r the same? but after that...to what prop said about the lots of sex making the liver go nuts...i'd like he and anyone else to explain that some more...i've only heard one other person post about a lot of sex causing sides...the only side it causes me is it just keeps me calm and less horny, less spontaneous/morning wood, etc. I often wonder about ppl talking about morning wood and all that but if youre busting a nut an average of 300 times a year or better would you think you would be carrying lumber everyday before your ready to build the house???? idk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by prop402

I don't buy this dopamine sensitivity idea at all. When you have lots of sex it sets up a high conversion of dopamine to adrenaline though, which temporarily increases sex drive alone, but makes you an adrenaline junky/sex fiend. Sooner or later you'll have so much sex that your liver will go nuts and your estrogen and SHBG will be driven up for less free testosterone in the blood stream. That's basically what happened to you. Get E2 and SHBG/free test tested.

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I'm very interested in what you're saying.

But I'd like some more information, more detail as to why you don't buy the dopamine sensitivity idea etc...

If you have a protocol you would suggest that does not drive BP too high, and allows one to feel good year round, and have the libido of an 18 year old, I'd certainly be very interested.

I would really appreciate anyone else who is trying this to post there results!!! Very interesting...

Another Question I have, is for those here who stretch their Cyp shots out 10 days at a time. I know there are several members here who swear they feel better overall doing this too.

This also looks like it should be changing the blood levels enough, and even giving short breaks, even if the dose is the same.

100mg or 120mg 1x E-10thD

The blood level would be rather low the last 3 days. Those 3 days should sort of suck, but not be the end of the world either.

The other 7 days however might feel pretty good being that the body would not get too used to those higher blood levels when it is getting a few days without it.

So most of the time be feeling good, and maybe better than if the blood level was too consistent.

If the idea is to keep the levels inconsistent, and have some low times here and there, then there could be a large number of ways to go about it.

Hey Meathead, I have posted in the past that I vary my days between 6 and 9, not on any schedule written in stone, I also vary my dose by as much as 50mg's - I go down to 150 and up to 250. I have zero issues with E2 (take adex - .25X3week) and take 250X2week hcg, and up to 500X2week on my weeks were I am at 150mg's of test. No sides, feel great, great libido, ALWAYS have morning wood, bp is good, lipids are good, donate blood every six weeks to keep rbc's in check. My last labs came back in the upper end, but not over it.

(this goes against what we all think/thought as far as keeping levels as constant as we can - so this is not for everyone...but I will say again, our own t levels are NEVER constant naturally, they fluctuate from hour to hour, day to day, week to week and so on - so take it for what it is worth)

I almost think sometimes that the whole "keep levels as constant as you can" started with the use of AAS for bodybuilding/strength - obviously while on cycle you SHOULD maintain the levels as constant as possible. But my thoughts are for replacement therapy, a little variation more closely mimics our former natty production.

flats

Thanks flatscat

That is a lot like what I am looking for.

What I am thinking about doing is protocol that would flip flop from E7D to E10D, and dosing that would slowly rise from 100 to 200mg, then skipping a shot, and going back to 100mg.

One question on the morning wood, do you still get it even if you had sex the night before?

Reason I ask is because if I do the night before it does not happen, but I need to know if the is normal even if values are in range, OR if I should be getting the raging hard on either way.

Oh well, blood work results coming on the 24, will see where my T, FreeT, E2 are at then.

I think one of the biggest things is having the E2 in range.

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Originally Posted by meathead320

Thanks flatscat

That is a lot like what I am looking for.

What I am thinking about doing is protocol that would flip flop from E7D to E10D, and dosing that would slowly if I were gonna do this, I would make dosing adjustments of at least 25mg'srise from 100 to 200mg, then skipping a shot, why skip a shot, imo you do not need to do thisand going back to 100mg.

One question on the morning wood, do you still get it even if you had sex the night before? yes, whether is was with my lovely wife, or dancing with my pet monkey

Reason I ask is because if I do the night before it does not happen, but I need to know if the is normal even if values are in range, OR if I should be getting the raging hard on either way. we are all different my man, but i think i am and have been my sweet spot for a while now

Oh well, blood work results coming on the 24, will see where my T, FreeT, E2 are at then.

I think one of the biggest things is having the E2 in range.

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best of luck to you!!

I am a big believer in changing hormone levels to feel good mentally and in the sex drive department.My half-pyramid system worked good for me for over a year but now i just take 180mg one week and 240mg the next and go back and fourth with those two dosages its just more simple and it works.But be careful of prolactin going up mine was creeping up slowly and slowing down my sex drive but i too vitamin b6 for a week and my sexdrive and penile sensitivity improved alot so you have to keep an eye out for e2,prolactin,and progesterone.Now you could always add 30mg of test prop to your dosage that always makes people feel good.(I think prop works good because of its fast release in the blood,big changes in hormone levels makes men feel good).

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Originally Posted by jlguitar

I am a big believer in changing hormone levels to feel good mentally and in the sex drive department.My half-pyramid system worked good for me for over a year but now i just take 180mg one week and 240mg the next and go back and fourth with those two dosages its just more simple and it works.But be careful of prolactin going up mine was creeping up slowly and slowing down my sex drive but i too vitamin b6 for a week and my sexdrive and penile sensitivity improved alot so you have to keep an eye out for e2,prolactin,and progesterone.Now you could always add 30mg of test prop to your dosage that always makes people feel good.(I think prop works good because of its fast release in the blood,big changes in hormone levels makes men feel good).

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what do you do when YOUR prolactin creeps up?

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Originally Posted by jpkman

what do you do when YOUR prolactin creeps up?

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I use vitamin b6 100mg a day.

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Originally Posted by jlguitar

I use vitamin b6 100mg a day.

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that comes in pill form?

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Originally Posted by jpkman

that comes in pill form?

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yes,any vitamin shop has it even dollar general has it in vitamin section.

This is the first I have heard of vitamin B6 lowering prolactin.

How effective is it? Does it compete with the prolactin, or actually lower the levels of it?

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Originally Posted by meathead320

This is the first I have heard of vitamin B6 lowering prolactin.

How effective is it? Does it compete with the prolactin, or actually lower the levels of it?

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I read it somewhere that it helps lower prolactin but its weak compared to bromo and dostinex,but b6 is a hell of alot cheaper.You just have to try it to see if it works for you.