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What's the likelihood of getting gyno from HGC if I'm keeping E, due to aromatization, in check with AI's? ...Yes I'm aware AI's don't necessarily work on HCG because it promotes actual E production versus conversion from test.
Been taking 300iu 2x a week of HCG for just over a month now and I'm noticing more and more that my chest is tingling. . Should I be concerned?
AI's work fine for HCG, aroma is aroma no matter which way you slice it. how much AI are you taking?????
post up your doses forrest
Was on .25mg Anastrozole, 2-3 times a week before I began the HGC, now 4-6 times a week as needed when I start seeing the signs. i.e Tingling, puffiness, moody, etc. Also been taking 25mg DHEA and 10,000iu of D3 for the past month or so too... Wondering if I should lay off the DHEA since that also contributes to aroma.
HCG stimulates estrogen production in the testicles, which is not affected by AI. This typically accounts for 10-15% of total E2 in your body. 10-15% is a small amount of E2 overall; however, if you are taking HCG you will boost this percentage since HCG stimulates lydig (???) cells and their action.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK
forrest: Just continue with more AI. Keep in mind that part of the increased E2 while on HCG will be from increased Test production. Part of the increased E2 will be from direct stimulation of the boys. But your boys will never directly produce enough E2 to give you gyno, so just increase the amount of AI to decrease the E2 produced by your fat cells and you will be fine. When I went on HCG I had to increase my AI too. I doubled it, and that seemed to be fine for me.
i honestly never heard of that, do you have an article or something???? i know men produce T in other tissues besides the testes, but i always though E HAD to be made from T??? meaning through an aromatase enzyme??? now i have to confirm this, can you do that for me?
Thanks GNBM... I'd heard about the straight E production in the testes, I just wasn't sure if it was enough to be concerned about. The whole tingling in the chest thing is just a little weird and wasn't sure if that was the gyno. I remember getting it once in a while as a kid going through puberty. No doubt, TRT/HRT and body chemistry is a trip. ...Still continue to be fascinated by it all.
GNBM.....I would also be interested in reading about that, interesting stuff.
F&T.....wish I had something to help you, I'm pretty straight forward with TRT so far, never had trouble with gyno, keep trying until you get dialed in as there are more than likely several people out there with similar issues who will need YOUR help and knowledge once you figure it out, keep us posted.
EXCELLENT RESPONSE!Quote:
Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk
This response and advise GNBM is dead on!
This is an excellent link although only partially addresses this issue: http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.html
This is the relevant part, under the "tumor" section:
"As a result of the increased HCG, acting analogously to LH to stimulate the Leydig cell LH receptor, testicular estrogen production is also increased, which, in turn, can cause gynecomastia"
Again, HCG also increases testosterone levels so you get a double E2 hit from the stuff. Do NOT let that deter you from using HCG. It is very very necessary while on T so you keep the boys in working order and producing the other hormones they normally produce.
yea i knew HCG directly stimulated aromatization in the leydig cells, but it still has to be aromatized, its not just made, so an AI should still work.
[QUOTE=THE-DET-OAK;5641118]yea i knew HCG directly stimulated aromatization in the leydig cells, but it still has to be aromatized, its not just made, so an AI should still work.[/QUOTE]
Very very ineffectively.
Im sorry im not trying to argue with you guys but this isnt making sense at all. aromatase enzymes are what is responsible for the conversion of T to E. trying to say they would not be effective at stoping aromatization just doesn't add up. even if it wasnt effective at stopping aroma in the leydig cells, which i dont believe, your still stoping aroma other places, then just adjust the dose that you need.
there is no reason i can think of, that would lead me to believe its any different in the leydig cells or anywhere else, it just doesn't make sense. I have never had a problem, nor any of the guys i work with, controlling aroma regardless of HCG use or not.
if im reading this correctly it would be best to answer this debate by following those on trt with test and arimidex only vs. test, arimidex AND HCG?
Hey Forrest,
Glad to see you popping up here again. My husband could never tolerate oral dhea. It increased E2 sides for him. There are quite a few guys who experience same.
My husband could also not tolerate HCG very well in the end....despite constantly fiddling with AI dosages. He does much better without it...who woulda thunk it? Things are much simpler to control. I don't understand all of it...but in some men HCG can actually cause less generation of prenenolone and other hormones that the testes make. The is called the pregnenolone steal. I've just read about it in passing, can't give you too many particulars or back myself up but you could look into this. I don't think one can blanket statement that all men on TRT need HCG. Actually there are a few who do better without it.
I' m glad you posted that ppc...myself, i think thats the first i've heard negative from adding hcg to trt protocolQuote:
Originally Posted by PPC
Well, it does keep the balls nice and plump. If that's what one is seeking then HCG is needed. But I don't care that my husband has smaller ones now...makes no difference to me.
I've talked to quite a few men who do a lot better without HCG. I think these guys are ones who's body's want to generate a lot of E2.
I like to look at blood tests whenever they are posted. I see guys all the time who are using HCG and yet their pregnenolone levels are negligible...often, so is their DHEA. It doesn't appear to be the fix all in those areas.
In vitro (a test tube), Letro is 40 times more affective at stopping aromatase than in the human body. This is because in vitro it gets full exposure to aromatase because it doesn't have to cross any barriers to get to the aromatase.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK
The thing that makes Letro more affective an AI than anastrazole is it's ability to better prenetrate the fat cell membrane. Neither Letro nor anastrazole penetrate the Leydig cell membrane in the same fashion they do a fat cell membrane. The bottom line, they can't inhibit the conversion of T -> E2 in leydig cells because they can't penetrate into the cell.
thanks for the explanation, now i know what your saying. and that def makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk
as far as the conversion of preg into cholesterol, this is actively stimulated or depressed by LH concentrations. so it does not make sense to me that it would slow it down, by stimulation of the p450 side chain enzyme, it should almost always increase this. after all LH concentrations is basically what tells the body how much test it needs to make, so to think that your body doenst realize that it needs more material, doesnt make sense to me either. even if it were to happen the simple solution would be to supplement preg in your HRT regimen.
people who have trouble with HCG in their protocols simply did not figure the right dose of an AI to take with it. even if it does not stop aroma in the leydig cells, you could slow down aroma enough in other places to offset the difference. maybe injection times need to be played with, there is almost always a solution to a TRT problem.
you can also use HCG to keep your trough up by manipulating dosing times of HCG injects and T injects.
I am in no way saying that it has to be implemented, guys can do just fine without it, and im actually up in the air of how well it does at keeping the testicles plump, especially at the doses we use. it really doesnt do much for size in most, since it stimulates the leydig cells, which really only make up 10% of the teste.
there are many benefits of HCG, you just have to find out how to dose it for you, even if it takes dosing 150iu's EOD.
shutting down the HPTA has consequences, anything one can do to keep as many parts moving is a wise choice IMO.
ok i read up on the pregnenolone steal, and basically what can happen is by over-stimulating the p450 enzyme, it can cause you to rob preg conversion form cortisol. so basically your cortisol levels will drop, this can make you fatigued, simple solution is preg supplementation. the chances of this steal happening are slim to none I would assume. Im sure this is happening to guys that are using TOO much HCG, if LH levels are withing range I HIGHLY doubt it could happen.
PPC the problem I see with your husband is that by stopping HCG completely, instead of manipulating doses, he is having the same thing happen to him that you were trying to avoid. wether its stole, or it does not happen cause you have no LH, therefore this process gets slowed, either way there is no preg conversion, or not enough being made.
With HRT, I see many guys settle, not knowing they could feel better, afterall you dont know what better is til it happens.
Thanks for explaining the preg steal. You did a much better job than I could have. However, I think it can and does happen to some men. My husband was using 250 iu eod most of the time. Not too high I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK
My husband did manipulate doses both with AI and played a little with HCG. He also tried various shot schedules and doses. He simply feels better with his simple daily application of androgel. I can't argue with the way he feels...he tells me there is no comparison. This is his 'better'. Not all guys will be that way of course...many do not absorb gels and creams. I imagine he should use a pregnenolone cream at some point in the future but it's hard to convince him to try and fix what he thinks is just not broke.
The more natural diurnal(sp?) rhythm that androgel allows may actually better replicate the T levels of a young man and thus help with the cholesterol synthesis into other needed hormones like preg, prog and cortisol. Testes are not all the way suppressed sometimes without HCG. His don't look like raisins, they are a little smaller. We know HCG is not LH itself. Sometimes people wonder if it actually correctly takes over the job. But I just muse here.
I don't think my husband is in some sort of tweaked, nirvana spot with his hormones...he doesn't feel eighteen. But at 55, he feels twenty years younger than he did. That's pretty good. But I get what you are saying...keep tweaking until you find sweeter spots. I'm like that too with my own hormonal issues...but some guys just hate to tweak. It's not their thing...my husband hated it. Usually those who have interest in hormonal issues will find a board where they can share and learn but I'd wager there are many men who just want to fix their hormones as best they can and then forget it. There must be tens of thousands of androgel or Testim users who never visit a hormone forum.
excellent post PPC and I agree with everything your saying. I will say that what i see most commonly is E2 being a problem with HCG, and usually taking lower doses more frequently with an AI will help this.
trust me when i say I COMPLETELY understand about what you mean with guys not wanting to play with these things, I see this all the time.
and AMEN for depot inject being an archaic way to deliver T to the blood stream, the pellets are suppose to solve this issue, but there are still too many problems with them at this time IMO.
again, good post.
[QUOTE=PPC;5641394] Testes are not all the way suppressed sometimes without HCG. His don't look like raisins, they are a little smaller. We know HCG is not LH itself.
I don't want to be a wise-ass here or anything but could you expound on this for me? Exogenous Test causes HPTA shut-down; it's a biological fact. In other words, men are causing self-induced testicular organ failure using Test.
hCG is a bio identical form of LH. It prevents the degradation of Testicular atrophy. Without hCG testicular organ failure is inevitable.
The progression of atrophy seems to differ in men where younger men seem to take a longer time then older men...probably do to leydig cells and the number of active receptors from what I read.
Nevertheless, your statement flies in the face of all we know right and I'd to know where your understanding of this is coming from.
Thanks,
G
OP are you on HCG as sole TRT?
[QUOTE=gdevine;5641656]I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the subject but I think there are some floating myths about HCG. It is NOT bio identical LH. It mimics LH but is not identical at all in structure. The brain sees HCG and thinks the body is still making LH so it still shuts down production of same. You are still shut down when you are using HCG, your body will no longer be making LH...it is just as suppressive of the pituitary as exogenous T is.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPC
I'm not saying HCG is useless. Some studies show it does help convert cholesterol to certain pathways. It does plump up the testicles so they don't look shut down of course. Some men experience greater sense of well being and greater ejaculation fluid using it....not all. However I (along with some other speculators) doubt that it fully does the job that LH was doing and it has it's side effects..so it should be considered on an individual basis...me thinks.
I inject Test Cyp as well. The HCG is to address testicular issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by akshay317
[QUOTE=PPC;5641952]There is a ton of research on hCG combined with a TRT protocol but I would encourage you to read this paper by Dr. Crisler. I don't happen to subscribe to his injection theory but this is an easy read for laymen to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by gdevine
AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL
By John Crisler, DO
In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:
Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.
So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.
But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.
It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.
In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).
I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.
Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.
While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.
Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.
Dr. Shippen on hCG:
http://www.mombu.com/medicine/medici...n-2307457.html
Med Study:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/90/5/2595
Thanks gdevine,
I had to go edit my previous post. Sorry, meant you are still shut down when using HCG (not LH). The way I had worded it, did not make sense.
I am very familiar with Dr John's paper on HCG and also his 'TRT - A Recipe For success' There is good stuff there. My Father has been a patient of his. I have also read the other links you posted...thankyou for doing so though...they are of benefit. I fear we may have hijacked the thread here....sorry OP!
I just think there are some people thinking now after several years of HCG...well it didnt' do all it was supposed to do. It was supposed to work like LH and keep my preg, prog and cortisol going...but umm...it didn't. Sure, my testicles look normal but I have negligible levels of the downstream hormones and I'm partially adrenal fatigued. So where do we go from here? Some are looking into quite massive doses of pregnenlone to hopefully fill in the emptying buckets. I don't know all the answers, I think we are just scaping the bewilderingly complex surface of how homones play and feedback into each other. I'm sure in ten years time, what we think we know now will seem archaic.
But I'm probably throwing a wrench into the wheel that is rolling along nicely for many people.
When T injections and HCG did not turn out to be the 'fix' my husband needed, I started researching really hard for guys that were still doing well on TRT after many years. I noticed many guys were forever tweaking that were using HCG 6-7 years down the track. On my quest, I found quite a few testicular cancer forums and lurked there, reading about these guy's experiences using exogenous T.
I noticed most of them only used T, usually transdermal T. Seldom were they tweaking, seldom were they using AI's and many of them were still doing fantastic a decade later. This seemed to be quite consistent and went against everything I was reading on all the other forums aobut the three legged protocol of T , HCG and AI, one that I was convinced of myself and a proponent of. I could not dismiss these testicular cancer survivor's positive results. I think we can glean info from both sides of the argument and use it to the advantage toward all of our unique situations. At this stage we are all in a game of trial and error.
Good stuff, PPC ...I wonder about the personality and mindset of the user, I mean...I was in excrutiating back pain for over 6 years and in that time my T apparantly dropped out the bottom and life sucked I mean SUCKED!!!! So when I had my surgery and recovered I felt great, still do, I have permenant nerve damage, my left foot goes a little numb once in a great while and my lowest disc is about 1/2 the thickness it should be.....but I feel great.....anyone else with my symptoms would probably be bitching about it but I have 6 years of absolute misery to compare it too, after that it took me 6 months to even realize that I felt shitty in other ways, got on trt and again I feel great, I tweak AIs and dosage...probably always will if I feel something is off.
My point is this........some guys are detail guys, they notice and keep track of everything in life and do a good job of it......then there are people like me who are big picture people but miss the little details in life.......I have to wonder sometimes if the way people feel isn't directly related to the type of personality they are, some will be happy to feel better and others will always be looking for that magic spot. Hows that for opening a can of worms.....Any psychologists, psychiatrists, on the board :) or maybe just a psycho
yeh but its a good point you haveQuote:
Originally Posted by JD250
Too true. Personality must play such a great role here. My husband's use of androgel has eliminated shoulder and knee pain that he had for over 2 decades. That's enough to make him say, 'Hey, I may not be perfect...but I'm way better, so I ain't gonna gripe!'Quote:
Originally Posted by JD250
Someone's feel good spot may be another person's less than stella. S'all in the way you look at it I guess.
This can of worms may be what much of this forum business is all about.
I suppose we all have an idea about how we would LIKE to feel but if your husband is having success I'm inclined to think of zigglers famous quote "you can't argue with success"......I'm sure personality and attitude have a good deal to do with what our IDEA of success is.
Forrest and Trees......sorry bro, I kinda stole your thread.......keep us posted on the gyno and what you end up doing.
Great dialog PPC. My best to you and your husband as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPC