Blood work done 23 and extremely low test

**Joeyissue** · 06-09-2012, 06:28 AM

Hi all,

I recently wanted to go on another cycle. It would have been my 3rd, however something was telling me to go and have a blood test because lately I have been feeling a bit lethargic and I have a real lack of motivation - hence why I wanted to do another cycle. Anyway, surprise, surprise, I'm screwed. I'm 23 and I have low test. I really don't need a beating over the forum, I know I screwed up. I have been referred to an endocrinologist but I really want to know if anyone has had this problem and successfully combated it without TRT!

Im 5' 8", 14 percent body fat. I have noticed that I have been putting on body fat easily as I was at 10 percent and decided to go on a bulk diet as its winter here in Aus.

Guys, please... any help would seriously be appreciated

Results are as follows:

Prolactin: 181 mIU/L
FSH: 2 IU/L
LH: 5.5 IU/L
Testosterone : 6.8 nmol/L
B-12: 967 pmol/L
Red Cell Folate: 1071
My last cycle consisted of 1750mg of test E a week for 12 weeks and dbols for the first 2 weeks. No HCG . I was one research chems for my last cycle consisting of Tamoxafin and Clomidaphine Citrate. I think this was the problem, because my other cycles consisted of the same PCT and I regained test fine.

I did:

Day one: Clomid 300mg; Tamox 40mg
Day 2-14: Clomid 100mg; Tamox 40mg
Day 14-28: Clomid 50mg; Tamox 40mg

Endo is another month away... and I'm losing my shit here so my questions are:

- Is there anything I can take to combat this problem? (Aromasin , Arimidex , Tamox - I have tamox on hand)
- Will I ever regain my ability to produce test?
- Could it be high oestrogen levels that are causing the problem by blocking the test?

**Bill_boy2005** · 06-09-2012, 06:57 AM

Post the ranges for your blood work. Cycling at your age is a bit risky. But that's neither here nor there at this point. Post the ranges and the vets here will help you out. Its a phenomenal group of men here helping one another out.

**Joeyissue** · 06-09-2012, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bill_boy2005

Post the ranges for your blood work. Cycling at your age is a bit risky. But that's neither here nor there at this point. Post the ranges and the vets here will help you out. Its a phenomenal group of men here helping one another out.

I know Bill, it sucks I'm in this situation its absolutely destroying me - you have no idea how much so. I had a few ambitions related to bodybuilding, now I'm in this position. The ranges are as follows. Im going to get oestrogen checked out on monday.

FSH for under 60yrs <7
LH for under 60yrs <7
Test (8.3-29nmol/L)
prolactin (40-450mIU/L)

**Joeyissue** · 06-10-2012, 02:43 AM

Guys, please... any help would be greatly appreciated

**edmundo22** · 06-10-2012, 04:56 AM

I can't comment on whether or not your HTPA can be restarted but you need to include how long its been since this last cycle, also try searching for similar threads in the search box until a vet gets here.

**Joeyissue** · 06-10-2012, 06:19 AM

Thanks for your response ed, any help you can give me would be great.

It has been approximately 8 months since my last cycle.

**kelkel** · 06-10-2012, 02:06 PM

First, straighten me out here:

My last cycle consisted of 1750mg of test E a week for 12 weeks and dbols for the first 2 weeks. No HCG . I was one research chems for my last cycle consisting of Tamoxafin and Clomidaphine Citrate. I think this was the problem, because my other cycles consisted of the same PCT and I regained test fine.

Were you on tamox and clomid throughout your cycle or am I reading this wrong? HCG should have been run throughout your cycle to keep your testicals functioning and make restarting easier. Your listed pct is very aggressive to say the least with that amount of frontload with Clomid and your nolva could have been tapered down toward the end. I assume this was started 14 days after your last injection? Both are serms and if run throughout your cycle would do nothing to prevent E from rising.

Your LH appears in the normal range as does FSH although it is a bit low. Test, obviously low. Regarding your question about your estrogen level. If you did that much test a week (whopper of an amount btw) without an AI I can't imagine how high your E level must be. The higher your E rises the more test it converts and it basically piles on from there. I'd immediately get an estrogen sensitive assay to determine where your at and go from there. I assume it will come back high and at that point you can run an AI to bring it into range (20-30app) based on how you feel. Lowering your E will in turn elevate your T.

**Joeyissue** · 06-10-2012, 04:26 PM

Hi kelkel,

First and foremost, thank u for your response. I don't think I have ever been this stressed and anxious and its all due to my stupidities of listening to the supplier with 24 inch arms. We are all wiser in hindsight.

I ran the Clomid and tamox 14 days after my last injection, not within, so u are correct. My previous cycles looked much the same. It has been over 8 months since I touched a cycle. Do u still think it could be elevated e2? I would much rather this be the case than damaged htpa. I will be getting blood work done today. What else would u recommend getting tested?

**kelkel** · 06-10-2012, 05:01 PM

Whether it's still elevated is an unknown and how long it may take your system to find homeostasis is an individual thing depending on metabolism. I had the opposite issue once with low E. Hence the BW needed asap. But, it is a starting point. If you happen to use labcorp I can give you the proper codes for the assay as they (labs) can tend to screw it up. Nevermind, just saw "Aus." Your T is low but more important than serum T is Free or Bio T which is what's available for you body to actually use. You can have a 2000 serum level but if your free is low then there's issues.

At a minimum I'd test the following IMO:

Total T
Free T
Bio T if possible
E2 Sensitive Assay
SHBG
LH/FSH if its been a while since last draw to see if any changes
Thyroid panel (complete)

Thyroid panels is to determine whether your hypo-thyroid which can give the same symptoms as low-T. Need to rule it in or out.

Your endo next month will probably run a whole lot more (hopefully) so I'd keep it to a minimum out of pocket. I'd also get your Vit D tested when possible to see where your at. Most are low and improving that level reduces shbg which allows more free T.

After the tests you get done as well as your doc's tests a consideration would be ancillary therapy such as Nolva or Clomid again or a combo of HCG /Nolva to jump-start your production, if in fact there is nothing else to point to.

Thorough BW is the key here though and we're kind of guessing without it. In the meantime read the stickies at the top of the forum and self-educate. Your bud with the 24" arms may look good on the outside but could be a mess internally.

Keep us posted on this thread and welcome to the forum. Others will chime in!

**Joeyissue** · 06-11-2012, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Whether it's still elevated is an unknown and how long it may take your system to find homeostasis is an individual thing depending on metabolism. I had the opposite issue once with low E. Hence the BW needed asap. But, it is a starting point. If you happen to use labcorp I can give you the proper codes for the assay as they (labs) can tend to screw it up. Nevermind, just saw "Aus." Your T is low but more important than serum T is Free or Bio T which is what's available for you body to actually use. You can have a 2000 serum level but if your free is low then there's issues.

At a minimum I'd test the following IMO:

Total T
Free T
Bio T if possible
E2 Sensitive Assay
SHBG
LH/FSH if its been a while since last draw to see if any changes
Thyroid panel (complete)

Thyroid panels is to determine whether your hypo-thyroid which can give the same symptoms as low-T. Need to rule it in or out.

Your endo next month will probably run a whole lot more (hopefully) so I'd keep it to a minimum out of pocket. I'd also get your Vit D tested when possible to see where your at. Most are low and improving that level reduces shbg which allows more free T.

After the tests you get done as well as your doc's tests a consideration would be ancillary therapy such as Nolva or Clomid again or a combo of HCG /Nolva to jump-start your production, if in fact there is nothing else to point to.

Thorough BW is the key here though and we're kind of guessing without it. In the meantime read the stickies at the top of the forum and self-educate. Your bud with the 24" arms may look good on the outside but could be a mess internally.

Keep us posted on this thread and welcome to the forum. Others will chime in!

Kelkel, thank you very much. I will run everything you suggested. If there is anything else I can test for let me know (tests are subsided by Medicare in Australia if you can provide a valid reason for them). Please keep an eye out for this thread. Your words have assisted me immensely!

**big_ron** · 06-11-2012, 06:53 AM

Hey buddy, been in a very simular position... Deffinatly try a restart. maybe hcg and tore for about 2 months, wait a month after that and see if your levels are higher. if not i guess basically your options are. 1 live with low test (not sure of your other symptoms) 2. See if your doc will put you on TRT

**kelkel** · 06-11-2012, 08:43 AM

Damn nice avi Ron!

**bass** · 06-11-2012, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Joeyissue

Guys, please... any help would be greatly appreciated

hang in there Joeyissue, panicking wont do you any good. so first we'll try to help in anyway we can, if things don't get back to normal then the worst case scenario is TRT for life! 8 months ago and now trying to restart is probably too late IMHO, but you never know, everyone reacts differently to treatments. have you posted this in the PCT section?

**Joeyissue** · 06-11-2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by bass

hang in there Joeyissue, panicking wont do you any good. so first we'll try to help in anyway we can, if things don't get back to normal then the worst case scenario is TRT for life! 8 months ago and now trying to restart is probably too late IMHO, but you never know, everyone reacts differently to treatments. have you posted this in the PCT section?

Hi bass,

Thank u for ur response. Its hard not to stress though, the thought of trt for life is daunting and what destroys me the most is the guys that are on cycle all year round yet when they get off they get back to normal without pct (supposedly).

Next week I have booked another blood test to test for everything kelkel suggested. Ur willingness to help is awesome, thanks mate. I haven't posted this in the pct section. Do u think they would have some suggestions on what to do next?

**Joeyissue** · 06-11-2012, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by big_ron

Hey buddy, been in a very simular position... Deffinatly try a restart. maybe hcg and tore for about 2 months, wait a month after that and see if your levels are higher. if not i guess basically your options are. 1 live with low test (not sure of your other symptoms) 2. See if your doc will put you on TRT

That's what I was looking for big Ron - someone on a similar boat that Im travelling on! Did u successfully restart considering the time it has been since I have been on a cycle? Do u have the exact numbers u ran on ur restart. Before I touch anything of the sort I'm going not make sure I get the blood work info to u guys. The weird thing is that guys with low test like mine don't have libido... That is a common theam I am finding. I feel great in that department and I still wake up with the occasional morning wood - puzzling!

**Joeyissue** · 06-11-2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by bass

hang in there Joeyissue, panicking wont do you any good. so first we'll try to help in anyway we can, if things don't get back to normal then the worst case scenario is TRT for life! 8 months ago and now trying to restart is probably too late IMHO, but you never know, everyone reacts differently to treatments. have you posted this in the PCT section?

Hi bass,

Thank u for ur response. Its hard not to stress though, the thought of trt for life is daunting and what destroys me the most is the guys that are on cycle all year round yet when they get off they get back to normal without pct (supposedly).

Next week I have booked another blood test to test for everything kelkel suggested. Ur willingness to help is awesome, thanks mate. I haven't posted this in the pct section. Do u think they would have some suggestions on what to do next?

**kelkel** · 06-11-2012, 09:18 PM

If you can add more tests I'd throw in Vit D, cortisol and DHT as well. My guess is most guys in the pct section would probably recommend you run another pct, IMO.

**big_ron** · 06-12-2012, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Damn nice avi Ron!

Thanks mate, shes just my type haha

**big_ron** · 06-12-2012, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Joeyissue

That's what I was looking for big Ron - someone on a similar boat that Im travelling on! Did u successfully restart considering the time it has been since I have been on a cycle? Do u have the exact numbers u ran on ur restart. Before I touch anything of the sort I'm going not make sure I get the blood work info to u guys. The weird thing is that guys with low test like mine don't have libido... That is a common theam I am finding. I feel great in that department and I still wake up with the occasional morning wood - puzzling!

I dont think ive had much luck.. its annoying isnt it, people can cycle for a long time, come off and have fine levels after, others can do ONE cycle and mess them selfs up. From memory i was coming off a short cycle, lowered my test to maybe 100mg for 2 or three weeks, then did 10,000 IU of HCG (pregnyl) 1,000IU's every 3-4 days. then 60mg of tore for 30 days then dropped down to 40mg for another 30 days, there may have been a bit of nolva in that also, basically it was a fairly agressive pct...i had bloods 5 months later and my test was 7.3.. my last test was 10 i think. another few months after, so still very low.

In regaurds to libido its sllooowly came back not to 100% but got morning wood most days and was horney. it is strange isnt it. i guess it depends on all your other sides, and way out the pros and cons of TRT and how your feeling. I would try another restart just to be sure, if it doesnt work then your fairly buggered mate.

**Joeyissue** · 06-13-2012, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by big_ron

In regaurds to libido its sllooowly came back not to 100% but got morning wood most days and was horney. it is strange isnt it. i guess it depends on all your other sides, and way out the pros and cons of TRT and how your feeling. I would try another restart just to be sure, if it doesnt work then your fairly buggered mate.

It really just sucks mate, it's a head game at the moment for me. Mood swings very, VERY quickly and muscle gains are just not what is generally regarded as 'normal'. So I would base whether or not to go on TRT on that. Still early though, I have plenty more research to do and still have to see how things turn out with the endo. I also doubt and Australian endo will be willing to put a 23 year old on TRT.

Do you guys think I should be straight forward with him and tell him that I cycled?

Originally Posted by kelkel

If you can add more tests I'd throw in Vit D, cortisol and DHT as well. My guess is most guys in the pct section would probably recommend you run another pct, IMO.

I'll be getting the whole shabang kelkel - I really need to figure this out!

Once again thanks guys!

**big_ron** · 06-13-2012, 06:15 AM

Dont worry i feel your pain.. Ive been dealing with alot of symptoms over the last 7 months, mostly being lathargic and also recovering very poorly from work outs and loosing strength.

Your more likely to be prescribed buy an anti aging doc.. the pretty much just want your $$$.. depends on the doc who you are seeing, mines delt with alot of AAS related cases, and doesnt really care. others ive seen get stuck into you about it and dont want to help.

It maybe an idea to try Triptorelin.. do some research into it. Good luck!

**bullshark99** · 06-13-2012, 07:31 AM

Joey, i know this thread is getting a litle cold, hopefully you have been able to settle yourself down a bit. I can feel the pain in the words you type, beleive me, I am sypmathetic, but what is done is done. I highly doubt (im no Dr) you will be successful in a restart back to your original levels only in that the quantity of your usage was significant. Hopefully I am wrong and you will report back in a few months your good to go and a litle wiser from the experience.
Nevertheless, regarding coming clean with the endo, thats a tough one because medical info has a way of following you as time goes by. IDK how it works in Aus, but your a young dude with serious issue's going on so my gut tells me you might just want to "dump your bucket". Very good chance you will need TRT and you wanna be with someone who knows what they are doing and actually cares.
If it comes to TRT, remember must worse things in life, you dont have cancer, ya know what i mean?? You will be fine, TRT actually has its advantages!! Look at Big Rons avi, I actually get visits from women like that all the time from my massive physic! LOL Then the fvcking alarm clock goes off!!!!!

**Joeyissue** · 06-13-2012, 10:41 PM

Hey guys,

My BW came back today. The doctor thinks that it could be a problem that is occurring at the brain level - i.e not telling my testicles to produce test. He never mentioned it but my guess is that my hypothalamic-pituritaty-adrenal axis (HTPA) is damaged - which in short means that I am screwed. the results are as follows:

Cortisol: 425 nmol/L (am ref. 120-620)(pm ref. 100-400)
Vitamin D: 33 nmol/L (51-200) low
FSH: 2 IU/L (<7) stayed the same
LH: 6.5 IU/L (<7) Raised by 1; just within range
OEST2: <70 (<150)
Total test: 5.5 nmol/L (8.3-29) dropped
SHBG: 24nmol/L (60-130) only thing that is 'within' range
Free test: 9.3 pmol/L (60-130) LOW, VERY LOW
Prolactin: 191 mIU/L (40-450)
TSH 2.5 mIU/L (0.5-4.5)

This doctor thinks that I will have to go on TRT, but he says I will have to go into the surgery and get it done for me 3 times a month. This isn't consistent with my research thus far guys. Most do it themselves and they do it two times weekly, with HCG and AI's. in He also said I will have to wait and see what the endo says as he will need to take an MRI of my brain.

absolutely losing my mind here gents... what do you all think?

Originally Posted by bullshark99

If it comes to TRT, remember must worse things in life, you dont have cancer, ya know what i mean?? You will be fine, TRT actually has its advantages!! Look at Big Rons avi, I actually get visits from women like that all the time from my massive physic! LOL Then the fvcking alarm clock goes off!!!!!

lol, bull shark... thanks for the laugh mate - I definitely need it! But you are right, there are worse things in life.

**Joeyissue** · 06-13-2012, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by big_ron

Dont worry i feel your pain.. Ive been dealing with alot of symptoms over the last 7 months, mostly being lathargic and also recovering very poorly from work outs and loosing strength.

Your more likely to be prescribed buy an anti aging doc.. the pretty much just want your $$$.. depends on the doc who you are seeing, mines delt with alot of AAS related cases, and doesnt really care. others ive seen get stuck into you about it and dont want to help.

It maybe an idea to try Triptorelin.. do some research into it. Good luck!

Ill definitely look into it Ron, thanks for giving me a rundown on your restart program too! Do you have any experience with endos in Aus?

**bullshark99** · 06-14-2012, 06:58 AM

Joey, sorry bro, was rooting for you but that Free T is dreadful. I am confused though, you said Dr "go into surgery and get it done 3 times per month" what do you mean??
I know your freakin, but you are getting closer to a solution, hang in there!

**kelkel** · 06-14-2012, 09:55 AM

Your LH appears fine. FSH low. TSH more modern range is .3 - 3.0. You are elevated and can very well be part of your problem. Surgery? Is he talking pellets every three months? Still need to find the problem first. Right now work on thyroid and go from there. Once that is corrected see where you are. Obviously start supplementing with D also. If over some time you don't see substantial improvement I'd look into testicular issues (primary hypogonadal.)

**Joeyissue** · 06-14-2012, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Your LH appears fine. FSH low. TSH more modern range is .3 - 3.0. You are elevated and can very well be part of your problem. Surgery? Is he talking pellets every three months? Still need to find the problem first. Right now work on thyroid and go from there. Once that is corrected see where you are. Obviously start supplementing with D also. If over some time you don't see substantial improvement I'd look into testicular issues (primary hypogonadal.)

Kel, do you really think that the thyroid being elevated to that extent would really be causing such a terrible free test reading? What would you recommend reading into to take as a suggestion to my endo?

Originally Posted by bullshark99

Joey, sorry bro, was rooting for you but that Free T is dreadful. I am confused though, you said Dr "go into surgery and get it done 3 times per month" what do you mean??
I know your freakin, but you are getting closer to a solution, hang in there!

Freaking, very much so mate, like you wouldn't believe

My heart sank when I saw that free test number.

In regards to going to the doctors surgery, I really didn't articulate myself very well. He said I may have to go on TRT and that I would have to go into the doctors surgery and get pinned 3 times a month.

Thank you guys, I know this is a result of my own doing and some men in this sub forum did not chose to have this problem. But being so nieve lead me to this... believe me, it will not happen again!

**love life** · 06-19-2012, 10:41 PM

i feel you same shoes 22 though, and just reading up first before i post info. hope all goes well, good luck

**Simon1972** · 06-20-2012, 06:14 AM

hang in there mate- the mri is to check for pituatry abnormalities and if there is tumor it will be benign, injections for life arent so bad- you can always dose them up with UGl test and get massive and live a healthier life than most people in your community.

where in austrlia are you- i cant reccomend an endo but i can reccomend one not to go to! my endo was a complete fvcktard and i dont mind sharing his name Doug lording, complete patronising and dismissive. reccomend you dont go to him!

**kelkel** · 06-20-2012, 07:57 AM

Hypothyroid = low T. Fix it first, then evaluate.

**Joeyissue** · 06-23-2012, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Hypothyroid = low T. Fix it first, then evaluate.

Hey Kel, I will be definitely bring it up with my endo this week.

Originally Posted by Simon1972

hang in there mate- the mri is to check for pituatry abnormalities and if there is tumor it will be benign, injections for life arent so bad- you can always dose them up with UGl test and get massive and live a healthier life than most people in your community.

where in austrlia are you- i cant reccomend an endo but i can reccomend one not to go to! my endo was a complete fvcktard and i dont mind sharing his name Doug lording, complete patronising and dismissive. reccomend you dont go to him!

Thanks for your kind words Simon. Since I have received the results, I have to say life has been a bit challenging because at the back of my mind is the fact that I have this problem. I'm going to see my endo this week finally. Luckily his name is not Dr Lording lol... I live in Sydney.

Nonetheless, I have been doing a bit of research on the Aus. forums and I think that the stigma of steroids - as testosterone replacement therapy - makes our doctors hesitant to prescribe it. Although I understand Dr Crisler's methods prefer Testo-gel to begin with, I feel that injectables are the way to go for me at the moment. I need something to pull me back up to my old self because where I am now, to put bluntly, sucks.

Originally Posted by love life

i feel you same shoes 22 though, and just reading up first before i post info. hope all goes well, good luck

Love life, I will keep you updated on what my endo says I promise. As soon as I get some ground, I am going to start up a thread here that will log all my details. I am going to help and provide the wisdom of hindsight I have received through this experience.

Gentlemen, could any of you suggest a place in which I could get some solid information in regards to testosterone injections. Most preferably information that shows their superiority to other treatments. I have been searching through pub med, but unfortunately the knowledge I have in relation to the law does not assist me in deciphering medical terminology and I find myself googling every second word in a paragraph.

(I should note, I am jumping the gun a little here, as there may be an underlying cause that needs to be treated before or instead of TRT (as Kel suggested hyp.thyrod). However, I want to be prepared before I visit the endo this week)

**Brohim** · 06-24-2012, 01:02 AM

Could perhaps your PCT SERMS was bunk? Maybe your doc can give you some pharmacy grade HCG and Nolva and try a restart. That is what I would try first before going on TRT!

**Joeyissue** · 06-26-2012, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Brohim

Could perhaps your PCT SERMS was bunk? Maybe your doc can give you some pharmacy grade HCG and Nolva and try a restart. That is what I would try first before going on TRT!

I agree mate, they probably were... But my cycle didn't help, it was real heavy because we thought it was under dosed to the shit house.

Still in the process of getting info. Can anyone give me assistance to build an argument for TRT injections, Aus. doctors are extremely anal and I'm trying to build as much of a knowledge base before I see him... I have demolished the stickies thus far

**Joeyissue** · 07-10-2012, 03:17 AM

gentlemen,

I have done my MRI and as I read the report there is nothing physically impairing the hypothalamus and the pituitary. The endo has sent me to test ACTU, test (again), T4, LH, FSH.

Now, I am going to try everything in my power to attempt to remedy my situation without possible TRT. At the moment I have Resveratrol, Toco caps, DAA, Zinc on order. I have reduced my carbs and increased my fats. Added another 3g of fish oil, 2 tbs on EVOO and some more coconut oil with cooking, whole eggs, natty PB and almonds.

Does everyone think my endo is on the right track here? He didn't give me much info to begin with and when I questioned him on the probability of me being put on TRT he said he didn't want to answer until he saw my MRI - even after I said "well what if there is nothing physically impairing the signal from hypothal. pituitary. testies"

Also what does everyone think of swifto's PCT to stimulate the leydig cells, on the first page of the PCT advice page? (study by Scully)