feeling like crap again

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 03:09 PM

after 7 weeks of trt, it seems the injections are lasting me less and less, meaning im just not feeling them as much, my balls are shrinking too, is this a sign that my body has stopped producing? and is this common after so many weeks without hcg ?

**zaggahamma** · 05-27-2011, 03:53 PM

the balls part is cuz no hcg with your test yes

and as long as you feel a lot better than before trt your good ofcourse your gonna notice more in the beginning but your saying crap so ..

why didnt you list your meds and doses and bloodwork(current, prior, etc)

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 05:00 PM

150 mg test e per week, im on liquidex, thats it, my blood work is now
total test- 658 ng/dl
free test 2.2 ng/dl
% free test 0.30
estradial 24

**JD250** · 05-27-2011, 05:45 PM

HCG is a good thing

Test E? Do you mean test C? When do you feel bad.....all the time....a certain number of days after you shot ie...3 or 4 days after shot you start feeling bad? or all the time?

**steroid.com 1** · 05-27-2011, 05:57 PM

IF you feel like your injections are getting you further and further away from when you felt good when you started I'd get complete lab work up done and see what's off. It's an art to dial in a TRT protocol and your just 7 weeks in. Anything could be causing this problem.

You need to post a full lab work-up including CBC, Blood Chem., Thyroid, Endo...the works. My guess something is off.

BTW, you need hCG . Look into it and why.

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 06:29 PM

yeah i know i need hcg , but my endo wont prescribe it, also i feel bad 3 days after the shot. i cant get a full lab work up becuz my endo told me to go somewhere else because he s not comfortable treating me, so its basically me on my own, but shouldn't my % free test be higher, the range is 1.50-3.20 and mine is 0.30, but the endo thought nothing of it, and im on test e

**38jumper38** · 05-27-2011, 06:32 PM

donate some blood, you will feel much better.

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by 38jumper38

donate some blood, you will feel much better.

why is that?

**38jumper38** · 05-27-2011, 06:45 PM

I had that problem about feeling, like you have, I had some blood work done and my stradial was 27 or so, 2 days later after blood draw, I was back to normal. just my opinion.

**zaggahamma** · 05-27-2011, 06:46 PM

yes free looks low

like jump said dontating blood every 50 days is good and thats about how long you been on...your blood could very well have thickened

sorry about the pos doc....its not uncommon...i posted on another thread a few places you can get labs done without quacks i mean doctors if you cant find that post i'll post em up asap

bump for more opinions

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 06:52 PM

giving blood may be a good idea then, i didnt know that my blood prolly thickened, and i would love to get more complete labs, but i just dont have the money right now, im saving up for an anti aging clinic

**38jumper38** · 05-27-2011, 07:03 PM

when you go to donate blood, don't mention, TRT or anything related with, they won't take the blood if they know about.

**JD250** · 05-27-2011, 07:09 PM

Sorry I was thinking test prop not test e, What do you mean exactly when you say "feel like crap"?

**Bullseye Forever** · 05-27-2011, 07:29 PM

it could be a number of things,hell im taking twice what you are and i still are having some problems

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by JD250

Sorry I was thinking test prop not test e, What do you mean exactly when you say "feel like crap"?

tired, depressed, weak, not confident, not even interested in chasing girls, really no erections at all, all the basics, but it only started getting bad 2 weeks ago and seems to just keep getting worse, weird thing is my depression is over nothing so its definately hormonal, ive been trying to get this fixed for over a year now but still no luck

**lifter65** · 05-27-2011, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Bullseye Forever

it could be a number of things,hell im taking twice what you are and i still are having some problems

could you post your total test, free test, and % free test rom your most recent lab? im interested to see it as ive been following your threads

**JD250** · 05-28-2011, 01:11 AM

Your saying this started 2 weeks ago right? When was the blood work done that you posted? What dose of liquidex do you take and how often?

**lifter65** · 05-28-2011, 07:50 AM

the blood work was done about a week or so after it started, i take .5 liquidex eod

**forrest_and_trees** · 05-28-2011, 09:47 AM

Lifter-

It's a good bet your E2 is elevated. 7 weeks sounds about right for it to start reaching that point and would explain all your symptoms. Testicular atrophy usually takes quite a bit longer.

I personally don't use liquidex, but I've heard people get mixed results on it, some say it doesn't work well for them. You may need a stronger AI like Arimidex /Anastorzole. In the meantime, try bumping up the liquidex. You should start feeling better in a matter of days, maybe a week, depending on how high your E2 got.

It would be nice to have your E2 level checked to know how high it is before you increase the dose. I understand the affordability issue, so you might want to try an on line lab like privatemdlabs.com. I get mine done for about $40 using an online coupon and you'll know within a couple days.

Best of luck.

F/T

**lifter65** · 05-28-2011, 10:41 AM

my e2 was 27 after taking liquidex so its definately under control, i'm just worried isnt 2.2 ng/dl really low for free test at 19? and thats after trt

**JD250** · 05-28-2011, 11:37 AM

Test levels will PEAK at about 48 hours after injection...that means that on days 3 and 4 your levels are high and start falling around day 5 or 6. here's what I notice about myself.......I take .25 mg anastrozol every other day and feel great except on days 3 and 4...a tiny bit of nipples sensetivity but the big symptom for me is being moody.......actually I would say a real asshole, defintitely depressed feelings....and I just feel like shit, tired and achey.......so I just take an extra dose or 2 around days 3 or 4....25 eod is a small dose to begin with so adding another during the week isnt a big deal........this seems to work great.

You really have to pay atten. to how you feel, I would say e2 is a bit high because of what you said about it being 3 days after your shot, thats when levels are at a peak and your e2 would likely be up at that time too, and like F & T mentioned 7 weeks is about the time when your body is getting adjusted(for lack of a better term) and you are gonna notice some changes.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND......this is a GUESS....blood work is the only true way to know...extensive blood work would be good........if I were you...and I'm not ,so don't take this as a MUST DO......I would go give blood.......take a touch more AI around that day 3 or 4......and then find a way to get HCG .....remeber extensive blood work will give you facts where as all we can do is guess. Simple fix if it works. Might be worth looking into.

**steroid.com 1** · 05-28-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by JD250

PLEASE UNDERSTAND......this is a GUESS....blood work is the only true way to know...extensive blood work would be good........if I were you...and I'm not ,so don't take this as a MUST DO......I would go give blood.......take a touch more AI around that day 3 or 4......and then find a way to get HCG .....remember extensive blood work will give you facts where as all we can do is guess. Simple fix if it works. Might be worth looking into.

Excellent advise.

If you need hCG and your Doc won't give to you there are online resources where you can purchase it. You need your testicles to function for so many reasons.

Also, it's clear you Doc is not comfortable working with you. Find a new Doc or better yet go to a clinic and get proper treatment.

You need extensive blood work as mentioned. Beg, borrow or steal...but do it and don't guess as you'll be better for it in the long run.

**zaggahamma** · 05-28-2011, 12:09 PM

great posts jd and devine

**forrest_and_trees** · 05-28-2011, 12:42 PM

Unless I misread, according to your post above, your blood work was only 2 weeks after you began... that's too soon to raise your test levels enough to begin experiencing any significant aromatization. It's now 5 weeks later and you said you're just now starting to feel crappy... Well there you have it. We've all gone through it, that's why we keep beating the dead horse about needing blood work. I'd be willing to bet both your T and E are up quite a bit. Like I said, if you don't want to spend the money on the tests, bump the dex and you should know within a week. But it's your call.

**steroid.com 1** · 05-28-2011, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Unless I misread, according to your post above, your blood work was only 2 weeks after you began... that's too soon to raise your test levels enough to begin experiencing any significant aromatization. It's now 5 weeks later and you said you're just now starting to feel crappy... Well there you have it. We've all gone through it, that's why we keep beating the dead horse about needing blood work. I'd be willing to bet both your T and E are up quite a bit. Like I said, if you don't want to spend the money on the tests, bump the dex and you should know within a week. But it's your call.

Totally agree. At the least get E2 and Total T tested; this may tell the story.

**lifter65** · 05-28-2011, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Unless I misread, according to your post above, your blood work was only 2 weeks after you began... that's too soon to raise your test levels enough to begin experiencing any significant aromatization. It's now 5 weeks later and you said you're just now starting to feel crappy... Well there you have it. We've all gone through it, that's why we keep beating the dead horse about needing blood work. I'd be willing to bet both your T and E are up quite a bit. Like I said, if you don't want to spend the money on the tests, bump the dex and you should know within a week. But it's your call.

i began trt 7 weeks ago, i had my blood pulled last week and those are the new levels after being on for 7 weeks, but anyways im scheduled at an aa clinic, called wholistic health center, if anybody knows anything about them please let me know, like experience, etc.

**JD250** · 05-28-2011, 03:25 PM

Do you remember what day your tests were on? I mean how many days after injection? Just because the levels were in the "normalish" range one day doesn't mean that e2 won't spike for a few days out of the week. Also everyone is different so maybe it wont take super high lvels of e2 to make YOU feel bad.

Don't know about the clinic you mention but ASK QUESTIONS before you commit......even if you get a good clinic you are still going to need to be able to listen to your body when it tells you something about e2.........that will be something that you will likely have to keep an eye on and change several times in your life......after a while it becomes second nature so dont worry too much about it, just be aware.

Let us know what this new clinic says.

Good luck.

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 05-28-2011, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by lifter65

150 mg test e per week, im on liquidex, thats it, my blood work is now
total test- 658 ng/dl
free test 2.2 ng/dl
% free test 0.30
estradial 24

You need to put some ranges to this, and both units and ranges to the estradiol.

Free test of 2.2 ng/dl is 22 pg/mL (typical units). This is extremely low. If your E2 is ng/dL too, then that would be 240 pg/mL (typical units). If this is true, you feel like crap because you have the E2 of a pregnant horse! So let's get units and ranges in there to see what we are actually talking about.

**lifter65** · 05-28-2011, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by JD250

Do you remember what day your tests were on? I mean how many days after injection? Just because the levels were in the "normalish" range one day doesn't mean that e2 won't spike for a few days out of the week. Also everyone is different so maybe it wont take super high lvels of e2 to make YOU feel bad.

Don't know about the clinic you mention but ASK QUESTIONS before you commit......even if you get a good clinic you are still going to need to be able to listen to your body when it tells you something about e2.........that will be something that you will likely have to keep an eye on and change several times in your life......after a while it becomes second nature so dont worry too much about it, just be aware.

Let us know what this new clinic says.

Good luck.

the test was a couple days after injection, no sure exactly how many, and the doctor at this clinic has been in practice for over 30 years, i looked him up and he's on all sort of diffrent boards and is in the hall of fame on something, its a month away though

**lifter65** · 05-28-2011, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

You need to put some ranges to this, and both units and ranges to the estradiol.

Free test of 2.2 ng/dl is 22 pg/mL (typical units). This is extremely low. If your E2 is ng/dL too, then that would be 240 pg/mL (typical units). If this is true, you feel like crap because you have the E2 of a pregnant horse! So let's get units and ranges in there to see what we are actually talking about.

the range for total test is 241-827, the range for free test is 0.95-4.30 ng/dl, dont have the estradiol range as that is being mailed to me right now, if my levels of free test is 22 pg/ml then i think i got screwed, on the quest diagnostic main site they have the range of free test at 50-200 something and its in pg/ml, i think that i really got screwd here with the ranges, and as stated before , my % free test is only .30 with the range being 1.5-3.2! im way off yet this damn endo didnt think a thing of it!!!!

**JD250** · 05-28-2011, 05:44 PM

You got a month to live with this so you might want to get this figured out sooner than later......when you feel like crap....do your nipples hurt or sensetive, hard, irritable, I can tell by pushing a little on my nipples, they are slightly hard and slightly tender....nothing major but still sensetive. A rule of thumb(I guess) would be that low e2 and high e2 have nearly exact symptoms with the exception of one.....If you have high e2 you could have nipple sensetivity . That is a really crude way to diagnose high e2 but .........

**lifter65** · 05-28-2011, 05:48 PM

i actually ordered liquidex becuz my nipples were sensitive, but it quickly fixed them, but it does seem like they are harder more often than before i started trt

**JD250** · 05-28-2011, 09:07 PM

bump your AI dose a little....especially starting on day 3 , it sounds weird....but check those nipples. Good luck Bro, I think you're on the right track......let us know how the new clinic works out.......that sort of info could help someone else out down the road.

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 05-29-2011, 06:29 AM

So if you are getting nipple symptoms and your E2 is 24 you are in for a delicate ride. It would appear you are sensative to E2 (so am I). That or your E2 levels are bouncing up and down to extremes. So make sure you do the AI on the days you do your T. If you are doing the AI EOD, just make sure the two meds fall on the same day. You may want to dose the AI a little higher on the days you do your T, and lower is a little on the days you are not dosing T to keep a steader state of E2. From my personal experience, the body doesn't seem to like large, quick changes in E2 levels.

**lifter65** · 05-29-2011, 09:03 AM

ok that sounds good, any info on my free test? its in previous posts

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 05-29-2011, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by lifter65

ok that sounds good, any info on my free test? its in previous posts

Not nearly enough info to go on. Low free T when total T is not low can be froma lot of things. If you are overtraining that would drop your free T a lot. There are a lot of other possible answers, though.

It is safe to rule out that it is being converted to E2. At least you hvae that going for you.

**lifter65** · 05-29-2011, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

Not nearly enough info to go on. Low free T when total T is not low can be froma lot of things. If you are overtraining that would drop your free T a lot. There are a lot of other possible answers, though.

It is safe to rule out that it is being converted to E2. At least you hvae that going for you.

yeah, ive been researching and i think it may be from too much shbg, could that be it?

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 05-29-2011, 03:22 PM

you didn't post your SHBG#, but that can take up free T if it is high. My baseline SHBG was right at the top of the range, and my free and bioavailable T was at the very bottom of the range while my total T was at about the bottom 25% of the range. My SHBG was contributing to my low free T. Not sure what lowered by SHBG, but after 10 weeks of T and an AI my SHBG was at mid-level.

**lifter65** · 05-29-2011, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

you didn't post your SHBG#, but that can take up free T if it is high. My baseline SHBG was right at the top of the range, and my free and bioavailable T was at the very bottom of the range while my total T was at about the bottom 25% of the range. My SHBG was contributing to my low free T. Not sure what lowered by SHBG, but after 10 weeks of T and an AI my SHBG was at mid-level.

can you post what your levels were? unfortunately i did not get a shbg test done, but im assume its high, but thats just a guess, but if im right, it sounds like are levels would be very similar

**Bullseye Forever** · 06-10-2011, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by lifter65

could you post your total test, free test, and % free test rom your most recent lab? im interested to see it as ive been following your threads

total test-573ng/dl-range 240-950
free test-25.8ng/dl-range 9-30
estradiol-125.6pg/nl
DHT-33ng/dl-range 25-75ng/dl
SHBG-13nmol/L-Range-9-45nmol/dl

estrogen way,way high,after use of an A.I. my current estradiol is 12,but adjusted aromasin dose and feeling better than i have in years