switching from Gel to Cyp

[funkymonk]

finally my uro put me on Cyp isntead of my 5gms AndroGel. He prescribed me 200mg/2 weeks. He will do the first injection for instructional purposes, and then allow me to self-administer afterwards, at which point I will do a more sensible 100mg/week.

I am currently shut down and the 5gms AndroGel is just barely bringing me into low normal ranges, where I was prior to treatment--hence the switch to tried and true cyp

1) How long will the cyp take to kick?
2) I have spare AndroGel packets. Should I consider suing them up front while the Cyp is initially acting? What about near the end of my initial 2 week too-much-at-once injection?

[zaggahamma]

you should be stoked bro....

it'll kick in when it kicks in...

some say a couple weeks...some say within that(me)..then again i felt good right a way on low doses of gel..

question #2 dont know wtf your talking about..

so youre feelin down now? whens the first shot? you can go immediately to ew from then!

[funkymonk]

first shot of 200mg tomorrow.
Was planning on letting that ride for 14 days and then starting my 100mg/week regimen so that my total prescription lasts as long as my uro would like.

I'm just curious if since I'll be going off the gel right now, if the cyp will take a few days to get into my system adn I will be a few days "without test". Basically, how long will it take the cyp to enter my system to make me not feel like total shit (at least equivalent to the daily 5gms Gel)? Obviously, after a week or 2 I'll be on cloud 9.

Regarding #2, I was just asking if I should discontinue using the gel immediately, or perhaps "Frontload" my initial injection to soften the transition, or use a pack or a few near the end of my longass 14 day initial dose.



Regardless, I'm stoked.
Dumbass doc gave me 18ga 1" pins though I'm ordering my own anyway after shot 1, so it's not a big deal.

[zaggahamma]

you dont want to pin with 18 guage bro....thats a little rugged....

they cyp will enter your system and will effect your test levels shortly after injection and levels will peak around day 4/5....

imo, your thinking a bit too much here....your good to go bro....kudos..

got any goals?

[funkymonk]

Goals? Reclaim my sense of well being and my 30lbs for reps lost on squats, add some of the right weight, and get my test/e2 on lock.

[zaggahamma]

Goals? Reclaim my sense of well being and my 30lbs for reps lost on squats, add some of the right weight, and get my test/e2 on lock.

sounds good...hope you reach it soon bro

[sirupate]

Yea, I bought some 18G pins early on and they scare me just to look at them. You may want to consider 23G or even 25G for intramuscular injection. You could pull the test. cyp. with the 18G pins, then switch the pin to 23 or 25G for the actual injection. I've been using 1" length pins and injecting in the outer area of my quads. You'll see recommendations of 1.5" pins for glutes...but that seems a bit long to me.

Test. cyp. levels peak 3-4 days after injection and the half-life is about 7 days. I don't know if you'll feel the effect right away, or several weeks from now. The gel seemed to have had more immediate effect on me, but it has a half-life of about a day...which is why you apply it every day. I have gel left over and use it from time to time to help me feel better. I'd discontinue any gel use at least 4 days before your next bloodwork though, so you get valid results on the test. cyp.

100mgs. a week is a nice level to start out on, then adjust from there as necessary. Good luck. Hope you like the injectible and keep us posted.

[zaggahamma]

Yea, I bought some 18G pins early on and they scare me just to look at them. You may want to consider 23G or even 25G for intramuscular injection. You could pull the test. cyp. with the 18G pins, then switch the pin to 23 or 25G for the actual injection. I've been using 1" length pins and injecting in the outer area of my quads. You'll see recommendations of 1.5" pins for glutes...but that seems a bit long to me.
Test. cyp. levels peak 3-4 days after injection and the half-life is about 7 days. I don't know if you'll feel the effect right away, or several weeks from now. The gel seemed to have had more immediate effect on me, but it has a half-life of about a day...which is why you apply it every day. I have gel left over and use it from time to time to help me feel better. I'd discontinue any gel use at least 4 days before your next bloodwork though, so you get valid results on the test. cyp.

100mgs. a week is a nice level to start out on, then adjust from there as necessary. Good luck. Hope you like the injectible and keep us posted.

these are the pins i use for glutes only 5 years running...many use the same....18g to pull meds out and switch...about 1.5 too long..eh...a lot of ppl like to keep some part of the pin showing anyway in case it breaks there is something to grab to take it out easily and u want to make sure youre in the muscle...if your close to single digits bf% ofcourse 1.5 is a lil more overkill but at least your sure

[funkymonk]

I'm ordering better needle sizes and additional syringes tonight.

[funkymonk]

Not sure if it was the nerves of the fact that I skipped my morning AndroGel, but within an hour or two of my first shot, of which I did on my own with Dr's instruction, I felt great.

Uro hooked me up with some 25ga 1.5" needles, and I literally did not even feel the injection. I wouldn't have believed there was a needle in my asscheek if I didn't see it myself.

Is there any chance that I injected the Cyp into mostly fat instead of my gluteal muscle? I couldn't really feel the penetration into my glute muscle, and I'm a little worried that I might have that nice pocket of Cyp chilling among my fat rather than my muscle.

Getting bloods done on my own in 6-8 weeks, and then if I'm satisfied with what they show I'll get my bloods for the Uro done to keep him satisfied.
Uro wrote a letter back to my PCP to help push the referral to an actual endocrinologist through. I'll know what's happening with that by next week.

[zaggahamma]

Not sure if it was the nerves of the fact that I skipped my morning AndroGel, but within an hour or two of my first shot, of which I did on my own with Dr's instruction, I felt great.

Uro hooked me up with some 25ga 1.5" needles, and I literally did not even feel the injection. I wouldn't have believed there was a needle in my asscheek if I didn't see it myself.

Is there any chance that I injected the Cyp into mostly fat instead of my gluteal muscle? I couldn't really feel the penetration into my glute muscle, and I'm a little worried that I might have that nice pocket of Cyp chilling among my fat rather than my muscle.

Getting bloods done on my own in 6-8 weeks, and then if I'm satisfied with what they show I'll get my bloods for the Uro done to keep him satisfied.
Uro wrote a letter back to my PCP to help push the referral to an actual endocrinologist through. I'll know what's happening with that by next week.

yeh thats a very small guage u indeed shouldnt have felt anything there...hopefully you drew the cyp out with the 18 guage then switched pins...seems like it would take 5 minutes drawing with 25 guage...just a follow up/reminder on pinning/switching pins you also keep a sharper pin when you are switching...i notice a little more pinch if i have to use the same pin to draw the liquid and inject as it dulls some when piercing the stopper on the vial

[funkymonk]

That's exactly what I did.

[JD250]

Good job bro......you'll have a woody by tomorrow and continually feel better over the next few weeks Keep your extra gel for a rainy day, you might even consider it in about 7 days if it is gonna be 14 days till you start your weekly injections. I never understood waiting that long as cyp levels will start to drop around days 5-7.....half life is like 7-8 days........that MIGHT leave you feeling a little down those last several days......use the gel if you feel that way.

What about AIs......E2 will **** up all that perfectly good T........have something handy, you may or may not actually need it.

All around good news bro!! Enjoy feeling good!!

[funkymonk]

Good job bro......you'll have a woody by tomorrow and continually feel better over the next few weeks Keep your extra gel for a rainy day, you might even consider it in about 7 days if it is gonna be 14 days till you start your weekly injections. I never understood waiting that long as cyp levels will start to drop around days 5-7.....half life is like 7-8 days........that MIGHT leave you feeling a little down those last several days......use the gel if you feel that way.

What about AIs......E2 will **** up all that perfectly good T........have something handy, you may or may not actually need it.

All around good news bro!! Enjoy feeling good!!

I might just do that near the end of that initial 2 week stretch.
I have plenty of UGL Exemestane (Aromasin) on hand, and I have several sources (both as UGL and research chems) for adex/aromasis/letro if need be.

How long should I wait to run my independent bloodwork to gauge if my test/e2 are in good places? I'm thinking 4 weeks minimum, but will probably wait for 6. E2 has not been a problem with me when supplementing with exogenous test--it didn't really budge with the Gel, so I'm not too worried atm.

[zaggahamma]

I might just do that near the end of that initial 2 week stretch.
I have plenty of UGL Exemestane (Aromasin) on hand, and I have several sources (both as UGL and research chems) for adex/aromasis/letro if need be.

How long should I wait to run my independent bloodwork to gauge if my test/e2 are in good places? I'm thinking 4 weeks minimum, but will probably wait for 6. E2 has not been a problem with me when supplementing with exogenous test--it didn't really budge with the Gel, so I'm not too worried atm.

4-6 weeks sounds good broski

[steroid.com 1]

I might just do that near the end of that initial 2 week stretch.
I have plenty of UGL Exemestane (Aromasin) on hand, and I have several sources (both as UGL and research chems) for adex/aromasis/letro if need be.

How long should I wait to run my independent bloodwork to gauge if my test/e2 are in good places? I'm thinking 4 weeks minimum, but will probably wait for 6. E2 has not been a problem with me when supplementing with exogenous test--it didn't really budge with the Gel, so I'm not too worried atm.

As Jman suggested, 4 to 6 is fine but look for neg sides during that time as well.

Make sure your E2 test is E2 Sensitivity; the standard E2 is not very accurate for men but ideal for pregnant women...LOL!

Did your Doc talk to you about HCG and why you need it?

[funkymonk]

As Jman suggested, 4 to 6 is fine but look for neg sides during that time as well.

Make sure your E2 test is E2 Sensitivity; the standard E2 is not very accurate for men but ideal for pregnant women...LOL!

Did your Doc talk to you about HCG and why you need it?

I addressed it months ago and I got a blank stare. He's a urologist, not an endo. I'll deal with the hCG when I switch docs, which will be mid October at the latest. In all liklihood I'll be dropping my HMO for a PPO, so things should be better.

But yea, I'll keep an eye out for sides in the mean time.

Thanks for everyone's continued support.

Update BTW, finishing off day 3 since the injection and still feeling great--much better than on 5gms of gel a day. I would say this is comparable to how I felt when I had both the test from the gel and my natty production in effect.

[funkymonk]

Overate yesterday by a bit, which usually causes me to gain a little weight the next day and at least wake up satiated.
Woke up this morning weighing the same, looking leaner, and ready to eat everything in the entire pantry. Larger than normal breakfast didn't sit in my stomach, but felt like it went straight to nourishing my body.

Oh, and morning wood has returned

[JD250]

Sweet huh? Get used to it Bro!

[funkymonk]

Update:

Today was day 15, so I official was able to begin my 100mg/EW (rather than 200mg/EoW) regiment.
First self pin, went in like nothing. No soreness or anything.

GREAT NEWS. My referral for the endo finally went through. Got an appointment on Tuesday morning with him. Considering that I am feeling like a million bucks on my new regimen, there's not too much I really want out of this new doc. I will push/explore options for the following:

-actual causes for my secondary hypogonadism (ask for an MRI or my pituitary gland perhaps?)
-full bloodwork--estrone-estodiol, free and total test, t3-t4-tsh, etc
-an AI if needed
-hCG

Am I forgetting anything? Obviously more refills would be nice.

Since I'm switching docs, I went ahead and filled my 2 refills for Watson cyp 10ml @ 200mg/ml vials for a rainy day, or self-medication in the time being. I'm switching insurances and docs again in November, so more likely than not I won't even need to touch those 2 vials.

[zaggahamma]

Update:

Today was day 15, so I official was able to begin my 100mg/EW (rather than 200mg/EoW) regiment.
First self pin, went in like nothing. No soreness or anything.
My referral for the endo finally went through. Got an appointment on Tuesday morning with him. Considering that I am feeling like a million bucks on my new regimen, there's not too much I really want out of this new doc. I will push/explore options for the following:

-actual causes for my secondary hypogonadism (ask for an MRI or my pituitary gland perhaps?)
-full bloodwork--estrone-estodiol, free and total test, t3-t4-tsh, etc
-an AI if needed
-hCG

Am I forgetting anything? Obviously more refills would be nice.

Since I'm switching docs, I went ahead and filled my 2 refills for Watson cyp 10ml @ 200mg/ml vials for a rainy day, or self-medication in the time being. I'm switching insurances and docs again in November, so more likely than not I won't even need to touch those 2 vials.

awesome bro...good on you...good thinking and yes the ONLY reason i could think of still going to the endo are to inquire about hcg/ai if the other isnt down on rx'ing that to you....

best of luck

[steroid.com 1]

awesome bro...good on you...good thinking and yes the ONLY reason i could think of still going to the endo are to inquire about hcg/ai if the other isnt down on rx'ing that to you....

best of luck

Agree with Jman...great news man. Please have you E2 tested and make sure to ask for the "sensitivity" assay. Most men, unless born with a super human liver, will need an AI on Test of 100 mg or more per week. If your E2 rises all the good things you feel now will go away. Plus, look seriously into HCG, over time your testes will start to atrophy and all sorts of not good things can happen.

You are on the path to success! You are managing the process and educating yourself along the way. An excellent combination! Testosterone for life!!!

[JD250]

Good news man!! Stay on top of it and think ahead, happy for you bro!

[funkymonk]

UPDATE: New endo is legit. He knows more than I've learned in the last 6 months (which is the way my Dr should be), and he listens to me and explains everything.

He agrees with my modified 100mg/wk over 200mg/EoW and is 100% fine with my Cyp regimen.
Won't prescribe an AI unless needed. He favors as few medications as possible, as do I.
We're getting bloods drawn 4 days after my 4th injection, and 6.99 days after my 4th injection, so we'll have a range of test levels rather than a snapshot.
He ordered RBC, PSA, a lipid profile (FINALLY!!!) and bioavailable test instead of serum. I'll check e2 on my own, but I'm fairly confident it's well within range.

I swear this guy is awesome.

[zaggahamma]

UPDATE: New endo is legit. He knows more than I've learned in the last 6 months (which is the way my Dr should be), and he listens to me and explains everything.

He agrees with my modified 100mg/wk over 200mg/EoW and is 100% fine with my Cyp regimen.
Won't prescribe an AI unless needed. He favors as few medications as possible, as do I.
We're getting bloods drawn 4 days after my 4th injection, and 6.99 days after my 4th injection, so we'll have a range of test levels rather than a snapshot.
He ordered RBC, PSA, a lipid profile (FINALLY!!!) and bioavailable test instead of serum. I'll check e2 on my own, but I'm fairly confident it's well within range.

I swear this guy is awesome.

good news bro...so he feels no need to see serum at all or did u mean in addition to serum...yes definately take a peak here and there for e2 and keep us updated with all....

best of luck

[funkymonk]

Doesn't feel the need for serum. Whatever, I can order that on the cheap on my own, but based on prior bloods tests' serum levels and how I feel now, I'm probably right in the mid range.

I'm switching insurances in November to a PPO, so that should open up more options for me if I dislike where this guy is headed. Although I would have liked to have a full (as in like, full full full) panel taken, I feel confident that this doc will be able to address my concerns and problems in the future as needed.

I'll report back with results in ~2 weeks.

[blacksmoke]

The bio available test i had done gave me serum,shbg and bio available numbers.

[funkymonk]

The bio available test i had done gave me serum,shbg and bio available numbers.

F yeah let's hope that's the case for me too!!!

[funkymonk]

Tests came in. Doc's nurse called to tell me that all ranges (PSA, CBC panel, lipid panel, bioavailable test panel) were all within normal range both 4 and 7 days after the 100mg injection. I feel like a million bucks, so I didn't schedule a followup.

I'm getting copies of those bloods by Thurs/Fri.
I'm getting my own bloodwork (liver panel, CBC, serum test, estradiol) tomorrow.

If there is anything I see that I don't like, I will make an appt.
I'm not gonna bother with an AI (unless needed) or hCG for the time being. I'm switching doctors in October due to an insurance change anyway.

Thanks for the support everyone, I'll report back with results (IE: numbers) in a few days.

[gmantheman]

I know a lot of people like using 1/2 dosage twice a week. This eliminates the peaks and valleys some-people experience with once a week injections.

[funkymonk]

My own bloods, 4 days after 100mg injection IM

test, serum 829 (249-836) super high end of normal
estradiol 50.6 (7.6-42.6) just out of normal

Not suffering from symptoms of high estrogen whatsoever. My gyno (think it's just fat really) has shrunk, absolutely no chest tenderness or itchiness. Water retention definitely is happening, but not to the point of raising my BP or making me feel bad.

Honestly, I feel like a million bucks. I don't think I should even bother with talking to my endo about an AI.
Or, should I just self-medicate with my UGL aromasin? I have 60 25mg tabs.

[steroid.com 1]

My own bloods, 4 days after 100mg injection IM

test, serum 829 (249-836) super high end of normal
estradiol 50.6 (7.6-42.6) just out of normal

Not suffering from symptoms of high estrogen whatsoever. My gyno (think it's just fat really) has shrunk, absolutely no chest tenderness or itchiness. Water retention definitely is happening, but not to the point of raising my BP or making me feel bad.

Honestly, I feel like a million bucks. I don't think I should even bother with talking to my endo about an AI.Or, should I just self-medicate with my UGL aromasin? I have 60 25mg tabs.

I am so happy for you man, you got it going!

As for an AI; only a blood test will tell you if you need an AI and the correct dosage to keep E2 under control. Most men on exogenous Test will need an AI at some point (especially if you're an older male) to keep the aromatase enzyme in check. If you see or feel any of the neg sides of high E2 all the good things you fell now will go away...and fast.

[zaggahamma]

good question...slippery slope...you dont want to ruin that good feeling you have...but...like G mentioned, it may build up over time and the e2 will creep a little higher...maybe a very light weekly dose of AI to help with the water retention (you say you are only looking bloaty in the face?) glad youre feeling well...any strength gains at all...mirror making you happy(er)?

[funkymonk]

I am so happy for you man, you got it going!

As for an AI; only a blood test will tell you if you need an AI and the correct dosage to keep E2 under control. Most men on exogenous Test will need an AI at some point (especially if you're an older male) to keep the aromatase enzyme in check. If you see or feel any of the neg sides of high E2 all the good things you fell now will go away...and fast.

Well I'm out of range on the e2, although I sure don't feel like it. Again, no chest sensitivity, and erections and libido are generally strong. I've had HUGE morning woods for the last....2 weeks. Like every day.

And, I'm 21 FWIW (re: "older male"). (no AAS/PH use)

good question...slippery slope...you dont want to ruin that good feeling you have...but...like G mentioned, it may build up over time and the e2 will creep a little higher...maybe a very light weekly dose of AI to help with the water retention (you say you are only looking bloaty in the face?) glad youre feeling well...any strength gains at all...mirror making you happy(er)?

Yeah. I'm actually cutting ATM and have only lost 2-3lbs, but I swear this is the leanest I've ever looked, ever.
Strength is a little hard to measure because I hurt my shoulder pretty badly right as I started up on injections over the underdosed gel, but I am definitely reclaiming lost strength while cutting.

e2 might continue to creep higher you say? I'll think I'll just keep an eye on it.


Blood panels with bioavail test etc come back in a day or two.

[zaggahamma]

Well I'm out of range on the e2, although I sure don't feel like it. Again, no chest sensitivity, and erections and libido are generally strong. I've had HUGE morning woods for the last....2 weeks. Like every day.

And, I'm 21 FWIW (re: "older male"). (no AAS/PH use)



Yeah. I'm actually cutting ATM and have only lost 2-3lbs, but I swear this is the leanest I've ever looked, ever.
Strength is a little hard to measure because I hurt my shoulder pretty badly right as I started up on injections over the underdosed gel, but I am definitely reclaiming lost strength while cutting.

e2 might continue to creep higher you say? I'll think I'll just keep an eye on it.


Blood panels with bioavail test etc come back in a day or two.

i think thats a wise idea bro...getter done...happy for u

[funkymonk]

My own bloods, 4 days after 100mg injection IM

test, serum 829 (249-836) super high end of normal
estradiol 50.6 (7.6-42.6) just out of normal

Not suffering from symptoms of high estrogen whatsoever. My gyno (think it's just fat really) has shrunk, absolutely no chest tenderness or itchiness. Water retention definitely is happening, but not to the point of raising my BP or making me feel bad.

Dr's blood order, 4 days after 100mg injection

test, serum 797 (no range given, assume 249-836) high-normal
% free test (dialysis) 3.4 (1.5-3.2) barely high
test, free 271 (52-280) high-normal
bioavail test, % 66.9
bioavail test, serum 533 (no range given)

lipids, PSA, and CBC all well within range

Dr's blood order, 7 days after 100mg injection

test, serum 483 (no range given, assume 249-836)
% free test (dialysis) 2.6 (1.5-3.2)
test, free 126 (52-280)
bioavail test, % 60.0
bioavail test, serum 290 (no range given)

Looks great to me. Honestly shocked that the endo didn't wanna throttle it back to 80mg a week.

[zaggahamma]

good stuff funk

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Big difference between 4 days and 7 days. Makes splitting shots into 2x/week look really attractive.

[JD250]

^^^ truth......I switched to every 5 days and could definitely feel the difference, all the charts show day 5 as the day when levels start to go south.

[funkymonk]

Big difference between 4 days and 7 days. Makes splitting shots into 2x/week look really attractive.

So damn hard to draw exactly .25ml I feel like the more I divvy up the dosage, the more apt each injection is to slight over/under dosing.