Test. Cyp. BW and Endo Experience

[sirupate]

Wasn't sure whether to post this or not. Not trying to boost the post-count...

I switched from gel to injectible test.cyp. in early March this year. Endo had me on an initial dose of 200mg. e2w. After some weeks, he had me do BW with the labs at the mid-point of the 2-week interval. Labs were:

Total test. 861 (280-800 range)
Free test. 16.7 (8.7-55 range)

Follow-up visit to the endo after labs resulted in doctor believing the mid-point measurement was too high for total test. and he reduced dosage to 100mg. e10d. OK...so at least he allowed a more frequent injection interval.

BW on the 100mg. e10d dosage interval looks like this (with labs at 10th day):

Total test. 246 (280-800 range)
Free test. 6.9 (8.7-55 range)

So, at this dosage and interval I am pretty low on the last day of the interval. My libido has pretty much gone away on the schedule...even my wife has noticed this. I don't see the endo again until mid-August because of a scheduling snafu and his relatively busy schedule. In the meantime, I am going to dose at 100mg.ew hoping to feel better. My libido is the prime indicator to me of whether TRT is working or not. No libido = no good.

The endo is a nice guy...I like him. But, he seems to have been educated in the 70's and his practice is mostly diabetics (my perception). I would guess I am one of few TRT patients that he has. I am thinking if he doesn't agree to up my test. dose and let me try HCG at the next visit, I will get him to call my scrip for test. into my pharmacy and begin looking for new doctor.

Thoughts? I thought that the swing in test. levels on those dosages and intervals was interesting. The levels seem to swing a lot for me. My endo clearly isn't comfortable with me outside of normal ranges even if I tell him I feel good at those levels. I've commented to him that I'd like my free test. levels to be better, but that elicits no response from him.

Jeff

[APIs]

Yeah I'd say fill the script & find another Dr. It's really a shame how many fockers are clueless on this. Like a Test level of 861 is going to kill you, WTF? At least your condition was being addressed, so you're in a good position to move on. Take advantage of the situation...

[zaggahamma]

this is what i dont understand and it comes up often...

reference ranges....some are different even though the measurements(ng/dl, etc.) are the same so to me the reference range becomes a little irrelevant as some ranges for total test go to 1200 with the same measurement..

can anyone enlighten/debate this thought process of mine...

with that being said, jeff's total test was high normal given the ref range was to 1200...and i always like to bring symptoms into the discussion equally or moreso than the numbers...like a recent post the ranges are for men who may not be healthy in other aspects and become even more irrelevant...

at 200mg e2w jeff's total T was ideal in the 800's (jeff you didnt mention how you felt with that dose/protocol in this thread) but the doc got scared off by the reference range...

i would have preferred 200mg e2w than 100 e10d...

but i see you have the option of pinning whenever you like but seems like your trying to follow doc's orders(respect) so part of this is moot...

i hope the 100mg ew does you better for one and also hope your doctor can work with you and you get it dialed back in..

is your doctor also one of those dr.'s that dont "believe" in testing for E numbers or did u just not mention?

best of luck

j

wow that was a lot of typing

[sirupate]

My doc has never tested for E2. His most recent BW orders were just for total and free test. I assume he is just trying to dial me into a nice range. He did get scared off the over 800 total test. number, which is why he went lower for the next BW. At 200mgs.e2w, I did have a libido. It went away at 100mgs.e10d.

I do use a bit of liquidex...about .25mg. twice a week. I wanted to be conservative in dosing that because I don't really know my E2 numbers, and too little E2 is just as bad as too much. Still, with my relatively low free test. numbers, maybe I should up the dose a bit and see what effect that has.

And, yes, I intend to pin weekly until I see the doc in August. I was trying to follow his scrip. to get the BW done the way he wanted. The rest of the summer is too long to not be wanting to chase the wife around a bit on the weekends...lol.

[frytlon]

my dr prescribed 200 mg every two weeks, and I don't thnk this is enough. I am thinking that 200 every week would be more appropriate. I am seriously thinking of supplementing the prescription with other sourced product, as he was hesitant to even go the 200 every other week schedule. I really notice the difference during the second week, in libido, energy, and strength.

[sirupate]

my dr prescribed 200 mg every two weeks, and I don't thnk this is enough. I am thinking that 200 every week would be more appropriate. I am seriously thinking of supplementing the prescription with other sourced product, as he was hesitant to even go the 200 every other week schedule. I really notice the difference during the second week, in libido, energy, and strength.

Most here will tell you that a weekly injection is best, with a few folks doing several a week to keep levels balanced. I also felt pretty "low" after a week with my BW confirming that (above). Typical dosage ranges for TRT here are from 100mg./week to 200mg./week. I think somebody is doing over 300mg./week, but he is a bit of an outlier in the TRT population. I've considered "other sourced" product as well. Time will tell. TRT really is a journey.

[zaggahamma]

My doc has never tested for E2. His most recent BW orders were just for total and free test. I assume he is just trying to dial me into a nice range. He did get scared off the over 800 total test. number, which is why he went lower for the next BW. At 200mgs.e2w, I did have a libido. It went away at 100mgs.e10d.

I do use a bit of liquidex...about .25mg. twice a week. I wanted to be conservative in dosing that because I don't really know my E2 numbers, and too little E2 is just as bad as too much. Still, with my relatively low free test. numbers, maybe I should up the dose a bit and see what effect that has.

And, yes, I intend to pin weekly until I see the doc in August. I was trying to follow his scrip. to get the BW done the way he wanted. The rest of the summer is too long to not be wanting to chase the wife around a bit on the weekends...lol.

i see...so the numbers you posted are with liquiedex ok...guess your already outsourcing

[steroid.com 1]

Clearly you are being mismanaged sirupate. You could end up getting hurt or at the least feeling worse (i.e., no libido).

Find an experienced TRT practitioner and do you and your body a big favor.

Your guessing with your doses of liquiedex and that's a recipe for creating even more problems.

[steroid.com 1]

my dr prescribed 200 mg every two weeks, and I don't thnk this is enough. I am thinking that 200 every week would be more appropriate. I am seriously thinking of supplementing the prescription with other sourced product, as he was hesitant to even go the 200 every other week schedule. I really notice the difference during the second week, in libido, energy, and strength.

Not to hijack this thread but I am confused with your post. What are you trying to say in the bold above?

Your Doc has you on 200 mg EOW; better is 100 EW or even better (IMO) is 50 twice a week to help manage E2 levels.

[funkymonk]

Not to hijack this thread but I am confused with your post. What are you trying to say in the bold above?

Your Doc has you on 200 mg EOW; better is 100 EW or even better (IMO) is 50 twice a week to help manage E2 levels.

twice a week helps manage e2 better

[zaggahamma]

twice a week helps manage e2 better

he's saying that administering 2 smaller shots(of test) every week will keep less of the T from converting to E than the one larger dose

[sirupate]

Clearly you are being mismanaged sirupate. You could end up getting hurt or at the least feeling worse (i.e., no libido).

Find an experienced TRT practitioner and do you and your body a big favor.

Your guessing with your doses of liquiedex and that's a recipe for creating even more problems.

I don't disagree with you and have been mulling around the idea of finding another doctor for a while. As you know, finding a new doctor who is actually on top of TRT can be a big problem. I wish there was a list of doctors who have similar beliefs to Dr. Crisler on the subject of TRT. I can take a "random" shot at a urologist practice nearby. I am also aware of several claimed anti-aging doctors in the metro area...none convenient to me though. Sort of a tough choice.

[steroid.com 1]

I don't disagree with you and have been mulling around the idea of finding another doctor for a while. As you know, finding a new doctor who is actually on top of TRT can be a big problem. I wish there was a list of doctors who have similar beliefs to Dr. Crisler on the subject of TRT. I can take a "random" shot at a urologist practice nearby. I am also aware of several claimed anti-aging doctors in the metro area...none convenient to me though. Sort of a tough choice.

Hey man, I am going to PM you later today with some thoughts on how to find the right help.

[steroid.com 1]

he's saying that administering 2 smaller shots(of test) every week will keep less of the T from converting to E than the one larger dose

TY Bro!

[sirupate]

Hey man, I am going to PM you later today with some thoughts on how to find the right help.

Thanks man. Any help is appreciated. It is good to be treated for this problem, but I see so many here that seem to be getting better treatment...maybe it is my turn.

[kelkel]

Just a thought after reading all these posts. Does anyone think it's possible to put together a basic protocol for approaching and educating our doctors/endo's on what they should be doing. AI's, HCG , etc. Something backed up with verifiable references (Chrisler, etc.) that we can hand to them as needed. Anyone out there able to do that?

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Just a thought after reading all these posts. Does anyone think it's possible to put together a basic protocol for approaching and educating our doctors/endo's on what they should be doing. AI's, HCG, etc. Something backed up with verifiable references (Chrisler, etc.) that we can hand to them as needed. Anyone out there able to do that?

Thats a great idea!!!!

[steroid.com 1]

Just a thought after reading all these posts. Does anyone think it's possible to put together a basic protocol for approaching and educating our doctors/endo's on what they should be doing. AI's, HCG, etc. Something backed up with verifiable references (Chrisler, etc.) that we can hand to them as needed. Anyone out there able to do that?

There a number of non-medical books on the subject. Shippen's is getting dated buy Morgentaler's "Testosterone for Life" is a easy read for any Doc and pretty recent. Besides that, just do some searches and you'll find countless articles. Crisler wrote a paper titled "Hormones 101"; it's a long, somewhat technical read but any doc should be able to understand.

[zaggahamma]

There a number of non-medical books on the subject. Shippen's is getting dated buy Morgentaler's "Testosterone for Life" is a easy read for any Doc and pretty recent. Besides that, just do some searches and you'll find countless articles. Crisler wrote a paper titled "Hormones 101"; it's a long, somewhat technical read but any doc should be able to understand.

what was that?

[Bullseye Forever]

Most here will tell you that a weekly injection is best, with a few folks doing several a week to keep levels balanced. I also felt pretty "low" after a week with my BW confirming that (above). Typical dosage ranges for TRT here are from 100mg./week to 200mg./week. I think somebody is doing over 300mg./week, but he is a bit of an outlier in the TRT population. I've considered "other sourced" product as well. Time will tell. TRT really is a journey.

i dont know if you are speaking of me,but my original trt dose was 600mg every 10 days,but i was on a rollar coaster ride my endo would not check my E2 levels neither would he consider presribing me an A.I. then i had my GP check my estrogen levels and they were like 126.5pg/ml out of 10-60pg/ml so it was out of control,my GP has sent me to another endo,but i am unable to see him until october,becaue he is so far booked up with appts,so my GP presrcibed me to take 300mg/week instead of 600mg/10 days and she is keeping check on all my blood test until i see him,im much better now,im taking aromasin and injecting once per week,and at my current trt dose of 300mg/week my last 3 blood test have been on the avg of 450-550ng/dl testosterone levels out of the range of 250-950ng/dl...and all my other blood test prolactin,shbg,dht etc are in the normal range....i dont know and dont understand why my trt dose hast to be so high,plus it being that high,why isnt my levels any higher than what they are,they should be around 700-800 i would assume,i will be glad to find out when i get to see my new endo

[kelkel]

I was just thinking of something a few pages long that just "sums it up" for these docs/endo's we deal with, yet backs it up with facts too. We can't give them a book and expect them to read it. That would just offend them. As we all know, they're smarter than us. Anyway, just a thought from a "newbie" here as this stuff can get real confusing, as evidenced by the success of this site and even this thread! It would be nice to be able to quickly and intelligently respond to their negative attitudes without offending them at the same time.

[zaggahamma]

I was just thinking of something a few pages long that just "sums it up" for these docs/endo's we deal with, yet backs it up with facts too. We can't give them a book and expect them to read it. That would just offend them. As we all know, they're smarter than us. Anyway, just a thought from a "newbie" here as this stuff can get real confusing, as evidenced by the success of this site and even this thread! It would be nice to be able to quickly and intelligently respond to their negative attitudes without offending them at the same time.

respect and tone then maybe a little literature if you will

[steroid.com 1]

what was that?

LMAO man. I luv you dude

[steroid.com 1]

I was just thinking of something a few pages long that just "sums it up" for these docs/endo's we deal with, yet backs it up with facts too. We can't give them a book and expect them to read it. That would just offend them. As we all know, they're smarter than us. Anyway, just a thought from a "newbie" here as this stuff can get real confusing, as evidenced by the success of this site and even this thread! It would be nice to be able to quickly and intelligently respond to their negative attitudes without offending them at the same time.

REALLY? Do you read the posts here how countless men are mismanaged and getting hurt all the while. Most of us who have done their own research, gone through the learning curve, searched out the right Doc and gone through the ups and downs as patients know more about proper TRT then a lot GPs, Uros, Endos...

Just read through the posts here and see how many men need to fight thier Docs for freaking HCG to keep their balls alive or get a scrip for an AI "because it's an anti cancer drug."

Just ask Bullseye what he had to go through...but he's not alone. I know you're a newbie; but read here first before making a statement like that...it's silly.

[Bullseye Forever]

REALLY? Do you read the posts here how countless men are mismanaged and getting hurt all the while. Most of us who have done their own research, gone through the learning curve, searched out the right Doc and gone through the ups and downs as patients know more about proper TRT then a lot GPs, Uros, Endos...

Just read through the posts here and see how many men need to fight thier Docs for freaking HCG to keep their balls alive or get a scrip for an AI "because it's an anti cancer drug."

Just ask Bullseye what he had to go through...but he's not alone. I know you're a newbie; but read here first before making a statement like that...it's silly.

very true my brother,its a true life learning experience,in my case,its been hell from day one and hopefully very soon i can get some peace of mind,knowing im doing the right thing,its just like a pro football team,you find a good QB and it takes several tries and several years to come up with the best winning team..e.i specialist.patient...some people are lucky thier first time out,but me,ive not found out my best answers yet,and its been a humbling and dreadful experience to say the least

[transdude]

There is some good info here. I'm not sure if it appropriate to post links to another forum here, if so I will remove this post.
http://tnation.**************/free_o...for_injections

[transdude]

Never mind, I guess links can't be posted here. I'll copy and paste the post, as it seemed pretty useful.

"Many guys ask for these details. Here is enough info to get started. You probably will not get your doctor aligned with this without a struggle [or a new doctor]. This is really a small part of what most guys need to know.

TRT: Protocol for Injections

* 100mg test cypionate or ethanate injected per week with two or more injections per week.
* 250iu hCG SC EOD [every other day]
* 1.0mg Arimidex /anastrozole per week in divided doses.

Injecting testosterone once a week induces spikes in testosterone levels followed by lows. This can make many feel bad or worse at the end of the week than their pre-TRT state. As time goes on the dead zone gets wider and they feel no relief with injections. These feel much better injecting twice a week or even EOD [every other day].

Injecting every 2, 3 or 4 weeks is horrible. You need to self inject and inject frequently. With frequent injections the volumes are very small and one can inject in the quads [vastus lateralis] with #29 0.5ml 0.5" [50iu] insulin syringes.

These are slow to load but injection times are reasonable as the small plunger diameters create very high pressures. Do not use 1.0ml syringes. This same size syringe can be used for hCG injections, which are also SC.

EDIT: Injecting EOD [sometimes written as E2D] or E3D [every third day] can be a difficult schedule. You can set up reminders or appointments in calendar software, such as MS Outlook, for E2D or E3D etc.

Small needles will reduce muscle damage. Some use #25 1" needles, but this may not be any "faster" than the above 50iu insulin needles.

You do not need to inject into your gluts with 1.5" needles!

Canadian clinical research has demonstrated that TRT by SC [under the skin injections into body fat] produce steadier testosterone levels and improves sense of well-being. Feel free to find out what is more comfortable for you.

For those who train and sweat/shower a lot, transdermal T creams and gels are not appropriate.

Transdermal T creams [and patches] are expensive. At best, only about 10% of applied testosterone is absorbed. Transdermal delivered dose is a crap shoot. Guys who have low thyroid levels are typically non-absorbers. Some absorb transdermals at the start, but skin changes can shut off absorption after a while. With injections, there are no unknowns about drug delivery.

hCG is a water based peptide hormone can be injected to replace the lost LH hormone that TRT shuts down. Without hCG, the LH receptors in the testes are no longer getting activated. The results are:

* The testes shrink. Over time for some the testes can eventually become small undifferentiated lumps of collagen. This is drug induced organ failure. The degree of shrinking varies from guy to guy and may be more of a problem for the older guys.

* Fertility can be greatly reduced or eliminated. If making babies is important, you need to inject hCG. If hCG is not used, its use after a long time may or may not recover fertility.

* When the testes get smaller, some feel an ache in their testes 24x7. hCG injections can eliminate that pain or avoid the whole episode.

* When there is no LH or hCG, the scrotum pulls up tight to the body. This has the appearance of a pre-pubescent boy. This is not good for ones sexual self image and this also affects how women perceive you sexually. Some women get very upset when they see this maleness disappear, thus affecting their sexuality and interest in you.

* The testes are the single largest producer of the hormone pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is important for proper mental functioning, and is the precursor to all of the steroid hormones such as DHEA, testosterone, DHT, estrogen, cortisol... Injecting hCG prevents a drug induced pregnenolone deficiency and helps support the other hormones. When guys are on T without hCG and then start hCG, they report a significant improvement in mood that many attribute to restored pregnenolone levels. [If that is not the case, hCG must have some direct effects in the brain.]

When injecting hCG, you inject into the fat under the skin just the same as diabetics inject insulin. The product literature is all about use a fertility drug for women with large IM [injected into muscle] doses. There is no need for men to inject hCG IM.

Research using SC injections in men has demonstrated the effectiveness of the 250iu EOD dosing. You can seek diabetic patient educational material for insulin injection techniques to use for hCG and/or testosterone injections.

Elevated normal [30pg/ml and up] serum E2/estradiol can block many of the benefits of testosterone replacement . Serum E2=22pg/ml is near optimal and one should dose anastrozole to get close to this level. Many who start TRT have some good results that soon vanish as E2 levels increase. My recommendation is to start anastrozole at 1.0mg per week [in divided doses] starting the day of the first injection. The let the first follow up E2 lab drive any needed anastrozole dose adjustments. It is not a good idea to wait and see how high E2 levels go before taking action. Dose anastrozole EOD if possible.

A few guys are anastrozole over responders. This is not known in the drug literature. These guys will get E2 in the single digits and will feel like crap physically and mentally. They may feel a spike of short lived libido as they fall through the E2 levels sweet spot. These guys need to take 1/4th or 1/8th of the expected anastrozole dose -something to watch for. If this is suspected, stop anastrozole for 6-7 days then resume at 1/4th the dose.

The 100mg dose of injected T should get guys into the 800-900 total testosterone [TT] range. That is nice to see, but one should be looking at free testosterone [FT] or bio-available testosterone [bio-T]. Some docs, who know what they are doing, will not bother checking TT numbers at all. SHBG levels increase with age and FT ratios drop.

A TT=1000 in a young man is not the same as TT=1000 in an older man with higher SHBG levels as the FT numbers will be well below that of the young man with the same TT. This may very well create TT levels that are above the youthful lab ranges and should not be a concern. Lab ranges shown on lab reports will be age adjusted. You need to be using the ranges for youthful men.

You need to know about PSA, prostate issues and DREs [digital rectal exam]. E2 is a large cause or aggravator of BPH [enlarged prostate]. Many find that lowering E2 to near E2=22pg/ml improves their BPH and urine flow is improved.

You need to monitor hematocrit levels as part of your routine lab work."

[zaggahamma]

Never mind, I guess links can't be posted here. I'll copy and paste the post, as it seemed pretty useful.

"Many guys ask for these details. Here is enough info to get started. You probably will not get your doctor aligned with this without a struggle [or a new doctor]. This is really a small part of what most guys need to know.

TRT: Protocol for Injections

* 100mg test cypionate or ethanate injected per week with two or more injections per week.
* 250iu hCG SC EOD [every other day]
* 1.0mg Arimidex /anastrozole per week in divided doses.

Injecting testosterone once a week induces spikes in testosterone levels followed by lows. This can make many feel bad or worse at the end of the week than their pre-TRT state. As time goes on the dead zone gets wider and they feel no relief with injections. These feel much better injecting twice a week or even EOD [every other day].

Injecting every 2, 3 or 4 weeks is horrible. You need to self inject and inject frequently. With frequent injections the volumes are very small and one can inject in the quads [vastus lateralis] with #29 0.5ml 0.5" [50iu] insulin syringes.

These are slow to load but injection times are reasonable as the small plunger diameters create very high pressures. Do not use 1.0ml syringes. This same size syringe can be used for hCG injections, which are also SC.

EDIT: Injecting EOD [sometimes written as E2D] or E3D [every third day] can be a difficult schedule. You can set up reminders or appointments in calendar software, such as MS Outlook, for E2D or E3D etc.

Small needles will reduce muscle damage. Some use #25 1" needles, but this may not be any "faster" than the above 50iu insulin needles.

You do not need to inject into your gluts with 1.5" needles!

Canadian clinical research has demonstrated that TRT by SC [under the skin injections into body fat] produce steadier testosterone levels and improves sense of well-being. Feel free to find out what is more comfortable for you.

For those who train and sweat/shower a lot, transdermal T creams and gels are not appropriate.

Transdermal T creams [and patches] are expensive. At best, only about 10% of applied testosterone is absorbed. Transdermal delivered dose is a crap shoot. Guys who have low thyroid levels are typically non-absorbers. Some absorb transdermals at the start, but skin changes can shut off absorption after a while. With injections, there are no unknowns about drug delivery.

hCG is a water based peptide hormone can be injected to replace the lost LH hormone that TRT shuts down. Without hCG, the LH receptors in the testes are no longer getting activated. The results are:

* The testes shrink. Over time for some the testes can eventually become small undifferentiated lumps of collagen. This is drug induced organ failure. The degree of shrinking varies from guy to guy and may be more of a problem for the older guys.

* Fertility can be greatly reduced or eliminated. If making babies is important, you need to inject hCG. If hCG is not used, its use after a long time may or may not recover fertility.

* When the testes get smaller, some feel an ache in their testes 24x7. hCG injections can eliminate that pain or avoid the whole episode.

* When there is no LH or hCG, the scrotum pulls up tight to the body. This has the appearance of a pre-pubescent boy. This is not good for ones sexual self image and this also affects how women perceive you sexually. Some women get very upset when they see this maleness disappear, thus affecting their sexuality and interest in you.

* The testes are the single largest producer of the hormone pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is important for proper mental functioning, and is the precursor to all of the steroid hormones such as DHEA, testosterone, DHT, estrogen, cortisol... Injecting hCG prevents a drug induced pregnenolone deficiency and helps support the other hormones. When guys are on T without hCG and then start hCG, they report a significant improvement in mood that many attribute to restored pregnenolone levels. [If that is not the case, hCG must have some direct effects in the brain.]

When injecting hCG, you inject into the fat under the skin just the same as diabetics inject insulin. The product literature is all about use a fertility drug for women with large IM [injected into muscle] doses. There is no need for men to inject hCG IM.

Research using SC injections in men has demonstrated the effectiveness of the 250iu EOD dosing. You can seek diabetic patient educational material for insulin injection techniques to use for hCG and/or testosterone injections.

Elevated normal [30pg/ml and up] serum E2/estradiol can block many of the benefits of testosterone replacement . Serum E2=22pg/ml is near optimal and one should dose anastrozole to get close to this level. Many who start TRT have some good results that soon vanish as E2 levels increase. My recommendation is to start anastrozole at 1.0mg per week [in divided doses] starting the day of the first injection. The let the first follow up E2 lab drive any needed anastrozole dose adjustments. It is not a good idea to wait and see how high E2 levels go before taking action. Dose anastrozole EOD if possible.

A few guys are anastrozole over responders. This is not known in the drug literature. These guys will get E2 in the single digits and will feel like crap physically and mentally. They may feel a spike of short lived libido as they fall through the E2 levels sweet spot. These guys need to take 1/4th or 1/8th of the expected anastrozole dose -something to watch for. If this is suspected, stop anastrozole for 6-7 days then resume at 1/4th the dose.

The 100mg dose of injected T should get guys into the 800-900 total testosterone [TT] range. That is nice to see, but one should be looking at free testosterone [FT] or bio-available testosterone [bio-T]. Some docs, who know what they are doing, will not bother checking TT numbers at all. SHBG levels increase with age and FT ratios drop.

A TT=1000 in a young man is not the same as TT=1000 in an older man with higher SHBG levels as the FT numbers will be well below that of the young man with the same TT. This may very well create TT levels that are above the youthful lab ranges and should not be a concern. Lab ranges shown on lab reports will be age adjusted. You need to be using the ranges for youthful men.

You need to know about PSA, prostate issues and DREs [digital rectal exam]. E2 is a large cause or aggravator of BPH [enlarged prostate]. Many find that lowering E2 to near E2=22pg/ml improves their BPH and urine flow is improved.

You need to monitor hematocrit levels as part of your routine lab work."

depends on the link..

please reference the source of information

[kelkel]

No offense, but I really don't see why something in summary form is "silly." I don't understand why making a "statement like that" was incorrect? If your referring to the "we all know they're smarter than us" comment, that was meant as pure sarcasm. It was more of a request for assistance from the veterans here, such as yourself (Gdevine) as I respect your opinions. Yes, I am new here and I am struggling with a doc/endo who won't prescribe HCG or AI's, (read-nuts are shrinking severely) and yes, I'm reading everything possibly on here and elsewhere in effort to educate myself. I've read many of Bullseye's posts and empathize with him, trust me.

[Bullseye Forever]

No offense, but I really don't see why something in summary form is "silly." I don't understand why making a "statement like that" was incorrect? If your referring to the "we all know they're smarter than us" comment, that was meant as pure sarcasm. It was more of a request for assistance from the veterans here, such as yourself (Gdevine) as I respect your opinions. Yes, I am new here and I am struggling with a doc/endo who won't prescribe HCG or AI's, (read-nuts are shrinking severely) and yes, I'm reading everything possibly on here and elsewhere in effort to educate myself. I've read many of Bullseye's posts and empathize with him, trust me.

The one thing that pisses me off with my endo or any of them what is like the one that messed me up,it all started with my question to him about giving me a precription for an A.I. because i was holding alot of water and had a swollen face,then i started to feel worse and he increased my dose,and i felt worse after that,so i asked him about high estrogen and my trt dose being converted into estrogen and in both instances,he told me and I quote"Please understand Mr.Doyle,that with clinical doses of TRT no one has estrogen conversion neither does anyone have water retention"he said if you are having those problems,you are taking more than i am presribing you,and i said,well how could i be doing that when i can only get what presrcriptions you write me,i just cant walkin the pharmacy and tell them i want extra test.....so after he declined to give me a blood test for high estrogen,i had my GP do it and like i figured,it was out of control,and when i showed himt he test results,he said it was impossible,and that i was over dosing!!! lol......and he's supposed to be the specialist....and ive learned more on this forum and doing my own research than anything he has told me,when i say what im about to,im not trying to sound like a big dog or smart-ass,but I hold a Master's Degree in Entomology,with a minor in Insect Genetics....so i know just a little about hormones and how they work.I dont in humans,but its quiet similar,ive done research in how to change the hormone inbalance in insects to hel control thier behavior and damage they do,to help develop insecticides to control them in row crops....so i know a little about hormones.Im like JPKman and adevine,ive learned more on this forum by reading and learning from everyone elses experiences more than what my endo has told me,heck i'd rather learn from this forum than any doctors office.....and i wish you the best with your problems man,cause all of us need all the help we can get

[kelkel]

Appreciate it Bullseye. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off. I'm learning everyday on here too. Everyone means well and the advice is most times better than the doctor/endo. Matter of fact I may have just found one to switch over to based on a conversation with an old friend who I did not know was on TRT. Said his Endo does it all, is modern, spends time with you and won't dismiss your opinions/thoughts like mine does. I questioned my endo re estrogen conversion and he stated Agel won't turn.. Christ, it's own literature says it can. Amazing to me. I still have a long way to go on this learning curve and the advice is appreciated, from everyone!

[Bullseye Forever]

Appreciate it Bullseye. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off. I'm learning everyday on here too. Everyone means well and the advice is most times better than the doctor/endo. Matter of fact I may have just found one to switch over to based on a conversation with an old friend who I did not know was on TRT. Said his Endo does it all, is modern, spends time with you and won't dismiss your opinions/thoughts like mine does. I questioned my endo re estrogen conversion and he stated Agel won't turn.. Christ, it's own literature says it can. Amazing to me. I still have a long way to go on this learning curve and the advice is appreciated, from everyone!

Man no problem,i hope you to get the help you need that will get you back on track,dont misunderstand,you didnt piss me off,i was just telling you how my endo got me messed up,and was hoping it would help you watch out for signs from your doctors,and not let them screw you over as well,yea we all learn from each others experiences,and thats a good thing,just keep your head up and hope your doctor does you right man!!

[kelkel]

Much appreciated. Nothing but respect for you veterans and hope to keep learning from all of you!

[transdude]

depends on the link..

please reference the source of information

Sure, the link that I tried to post was from the "t replacement" section of the ********* forum. It was written by someone know as KSman. The source is not from a medical journal or anything of that nature.

[zaggahamma]

Appreciate it Bullseye. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off. I'm learning everyday on here too. Everyone means well and the advice is most times better than the doctor/endo. Matter of fact I may have just found one to switch over to based on a conversation with an old friend who I did not know was on TRT. Said his Endo does it all, is modern, spends time with you and won't dismiss your opinions/thoughts like mine does. I questioned my endo re estrogen conversion and he stated Agel won't turn.. Christ, it's own literature says it can. Amazing to me. I still have a long way to go on this learning curve and the advice is appreciated, from everyone!

i think g will cut u some slack after he sees you were being sarcastic....sore subject around here with these arrogant/ignorant doctors...just look at bullseyes "specialist"'s comments.....geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez

all good bro...youve made some good posts and seem cool

[kelkel]

Appreciate it. that's my sense of humor.. I'm definitly on the same page as you guys just trying to catch up and learn. That line was meant as pure sarcasm only. Probably should have put it in quotations. (I'll learn, promise) I've followed Bullseyes posts and "damn", not fun stuff. I'm on this site far to much anymore reading and learning. The amount of knowledge here is amazing. Now if I can just get some to sink in to my old ass.....Right now I'm pumped about possibly finding a doc who may actually listen and help, not just write agel and see ya in 6 months w bw.

Thanks jpkman

[Bullseye Forever]

Appreciate it. that's my sense of humor.. I'm definitly on the same page as you guys just trying to catch up and learn. That line was meant as pure sarcasm only. Probably should have put it in quotations. (I'll learn, promise) I've followed Bullseyes posts and "damn", not fun stuff. I'm on this site far to much anymore reading and learning. The amount of knowledge here is amazing. Now if I can just get some to sink in to my old ass.....Right now I'm pumped about possibly finding a doc who may actually listen and help, not just write agel and see ya in 6 months w bw.

Thanks jpkman

maybe you will get lucky brother and find the right one right off the bat,and hopefully not havt to go through all the bullshit that most of us have had to deal with, i sure hope you do get a good one man and keep us posted!!!

[zaggahamma]

Appreciate it. that's my sense of humor.. I'm definitly on the same page as you guys just trying to catch up and learn. That line was meant as pure sarcasm only. Probably should have put it in quotations. (I'll learn, promise) I've followed Bullseyes posts and "damn", not fun stuff. I'm on this site far to much anymore reading and learning. The amount of knowledge here is amazing. Now if I can just get some to sink in to my old ass.....Right now I'm pumped about possibly finding a doc who may actually listen and help, not just write agel and see ya in 6 months w bw.

Thanks jpkman

we're glad to have u and hope u DO find a good doc and/or the right protocol

[JD250]

Kelkel.....nothing wrong with a little sarcasm, i picked up on it and can appreciate the need to express a little discontent through it. Good luck to you bro.

Some of you guys are so much more patient than I am, my doc started in with the same BS and I simply called an anti aging clinic and got what I needed from all my reading here and never gave it a second thought, I don't tolerate professional ignorance very well, if a man is paid to know something he damn sure better know it, just my rant about Docs who don't know anything about TRT yet will give advice as if they are an authority.

Good luck bros

[lovbyts]

The one thing that pisses me off with my endo or any of them what is like the one that messed me up,it all started with my question to him about giving me a precription for an A.I. because i was holding alot of water and had a swollen face,then i started to feel worse and he increased my dose,and i felt worse after that,so i asked him about high estrogen and my trt dose being converted into estrogen and in both instances,he told me and I quote"Please understand Mr.Doyle,that with clinical doses of TRT no one has estrogen conversion neither does anyone have water retention"he said if you are having those problems,you are taking more than i am presribing you,and i said,well how could i be doing that when i can only get what presrcriptions you write me,i just cant walkin the pharmacy and tell them i want extra test.....so after he declined to give me a blood test for high estrogen,i had my GP do it and like i figured,it was out of control,and when i showed himt he test results,he said it was impossible,and that i was over dosing!!! lol......and he's supposed to be the specialist....and ive learned more on this forum and doing my own research than anything he has told me,when i say what im about to,im not trying to sound like a big dog or smart-ass,but I hold a Master's Degree in Entomology,with a minor in Insect Genetics....so i know just a little about hormones and how they work.I dont in humans,but its quiet similar,ive done research in how to change the hormone inbalance in insects to hel control thier behavior and damage they do,to help develop insecticides to control them in row crops....so i know a little about hormones.Im like JPKman and adevine,ive learned more on this forum by reading and learning from everyone elses experiences more than what my endo has told me,heck i'd rather learn from this forum than any doctors office.....and i wish you the best with your problems man,cause all of us need all the help we can get

Yes and if you remember I/we told you it was TO high and to just lower it yourself, get your blood work done, get your E2 under control but keep accepting the RX for 600 mg a week and stock up!!!!! Hey if the doctor wants to be an idiot and give it away......
It's up to us to self educate and if we use logic and common sense we should know our bodies better than the doctor and be prepared to remind your doctor that he/she works for you and you should not be rushed or treated like a lab rat.