On TRT and needing advice

[zack67360]

Hello
Am new to the forum and have been doing some research to try and get myself into better shape. I'd like to reduce my BF, increase muscle mass, and feel better. Currently I have little energy, pretty much none emotional, a practically none existant labido, and multiple body aches. My PCP has me on TRT, which is currently the Testim 1% (50mg per tube), one tube a day. She did have me doing the Testosterone Cyp. injections which were 100mg every 2 weeks. I did better with the injections than the gel. My current lab on the gel is:
Serum Testosterone 411
Free Testosterone 7.4
Total cholesterol 228
HDL 59
LDL 153
She did not do an estorgen check, but I know from reading on this site that extra T can be converted to estorogen. I have read that taking DHEA and pregnenolone can bind the estrogen. If a person takes the hCG injections, do you still need the DHEA and pregnenolone? Also, I recall seeing a page somewhere here of the definitions of the abbreviations, but cannot find it now. Can I get a link? I spoke with a trainer, and he recommended doing a cycle of 200mg Test E twice a week and Depo 100mg/week times 8 weeks. But nothing about the post cycle therapy, and nothing about the problem of estrogen.
Oh, my stats are:
Age: 50
Wt.: 159#
Ht. 5' 11"
BF-?? A bit around the middle I'd like to melt off.
I also take a multi vitamin pack, a pack of pills for joint support, 2 protein shakes/day, supplemented with L-Arginine, Lysine, Ornithine, and Glutamine. I also do Creatine Gluconate. And Co-Enzyme Q10.
As stated, my goals are to loose the fat, gain muscle and definition, regain my sexual drive, feel energetic again, and have a happier outlook on life in general. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
zack

[lifter65]

to be blunt, dont wate your time with docs or endos or whatever, save your sanity and go see dr crisler asap, you being 50 you should have no problem driving out to him, and you can most likely get an appt within the week, hes one of the best if not the best in the world and will get you better

[zack67360]

Since I am new to the forum, I must claim ignorance to Dr Crisler. Could you give me more information as to where he is located? If not post on the public site, maybe pm me? Thanks lifter.
Oh, I am in the SE corner of KS if that makes a difference.
zack

[lifter65]

dr crisler is in michigan, i drove 7 hours to see him , may be a little further for you, he has a website allthingsmale.com also check out musclechatroom.com , youll find all of his info on his website

[zaggahamma]

read some of the countless posts on this forum you will educate yourself on all the names and jargon you will need in a week....

as for doc....NOT SURPRISING that u are on unaffective therapies....if you were injecting at home you could play around a bit...if not and they are injecting you at the office you SHOULD be doing no less than 100mg injection EVERY WEEK....150mg every 10days would be the longest injection period and some would argue they wouldnt want to stretch their shot day out so long as the peak level of the test peaks around day 4/5 and declines fairly rapidly...
u are not alone...many had to play the androgel game before getting the right dose injection or injections at all..

some of your trainers thoughts may have been lost in transition as depot means injectible and the test E is also an injectible therefore is depot in that fact so that there makes no sense....and when on trt you dont do pct because there is nothing to bring back otherwise you wouldnt be on trt to begin with..

do u think this doctor will work with you? have you considered an anti aging clinic?(usually all out of pocket expense there but no red tape/poor management/knowledge like your dealing with now...

my .02

bump for more O's and welcome bro

[Sledgehammer1]

My guess is that the trainer meant Test suspension 100mg/wk for depot. Thats used more for advanced cycles or an expierenced user.

[zack67360]

Thank you for the responses. My Dr. is a pretty good woman. She unfortunately is about 90 miles away, which has it's pros and cons. I am a nurse, so getting the injections are no problem. In the past when I was on the testosterone Cyp. I got a co worker to inject me, now I am thinking I'll depot myself. But there is still the matter of the extra testosterone being converted to estrogen. Then, do I do the DHEA and pregnenolone? Oh, the pro for my Dr. being so far away, usually all it takes is a call from me requesting this or that. She trusts my diagnosis and usually sends the Rx out. Currently I'm doing Ionto patches and Dexamethasone Sodium Phosphate for damaged connective tissue in my elbow. She had not heard of the Iontophoresis Tx before, but sent the Rx out anyway. Ended up having to get the Dexa from my vet though.
Thanks Lifter for the websites, I'll check them out. The trainer I spoke of is a relative of a good friend, who recommended that cycle for building muscle. We really didn't have alot of time to get into a deep discussion.
Thanks jpkman and Sledge, I feel fortunate to have found this site. So, 100mg/week. Anything else to go with it? I do think I'll do the Deca once I've finished the Ionto Tx to rebuild my joints. I have been hitting the gym for the last 4 years, 3 or 4 times a week for about 1 hour. Recently I gave up my second job and have been able to go 4 days/week for 1+ hours. I just exercise one muscle group/week, trying to allow enough time for repair.
Thanks again for the help,
zack

[bass]

like JP said, you will learn more by reading whats been posted already. three important meds you need to know about which makes TRT complete,

1. testosterone, injectable is preferred!
2. Aromatase inhibitors
3. hCG

talk to your doctor about these three. it will take time to get things dialed in so expect hills and valleys! best of luck to you.

[zaggahamma]

Thank you for the responses. My Dr. is a pretty good woman. She unfortunately is about 90 miles away, which has it's pros and cons. I am a nurse, so getting the injections are no problem. In the past when I was on the testosterone Cyp. I got a co worker to inject me, now I am thinking I'll depot myself. But there is still the matter of the extra testosterone being converted to estrogen. Then, do I do the DHEA and pregnenolone? Oh, the pro for my Dr. being so far away, usually all it takes is a call from me requesting this or that. She trusts my diagnosis and usually sends the Rx out. Currently I'm doing Ionto patches and Dexamethasone Sodium Phosphate for damaged connective tissue in my elbow. She had not heard of the Iontophoresis Tx before, but sent the Rx out anyway. Ended up having to get the Deca from my vet though.
Thanks Lifter for the websites, I'll check them out. The trainer I spoke of is a relative of a good friend, who recommended that cycle for building muscle. We really didn't have alot of time to get into a deep discussion.
Thanks jpkman and Sledge, I feel fortunate to have found this site. So, 100mg/week. Anything else to go with it? I do think I'll do the Deca once I've finished the Ionto Tx to rebuild my joints. I have been hitting the gym for the last 4 years, 3 or 4 times a week for about 1 hour. Recently I gave up my second job and have been able to go 4 days/week for 1+ hours. I just exercise one muscle group/week, trying to allow enough time for repair.
Thanks again for the help,
zack

i've been on trt (test and arimidex only or test only with low(er) doses ) for over 5 years and never added hcg, preg, or dhea.....HAVE added deca b4 and am only considering the dhea/preg additions....gdevine talks about the benefits of all 3 additions and another prominent member vetteman also did as well and they post the references by dr. crisler and other ref to back up these protocols...i have done ok without but i very much see merit in adding in the others soon....i also think our body adapts and reacts differently over time and you end up having to tweak your protocol from time to time anyway...
LOVE deca...i always say that..i did well with it and if you have it i would run it with equal amounts of test.....get your e2 checked and rechecked...best of luck

[zack67360]

Thanks Bass. Yes, am doing alot of research reading here, as there is alot of researched good information/experience here to benefit from. The body is amazing and the last thing I want to do is throw my endocrine system into a tail spin, just want to give it a nudge to where it once was.
I did a typo, what I got from the vet was the Dexamethasone, not the Deca. Sorry.
jpkman, if you don't mind saying, what dosage are you currently taking of the test, and how much of the dhea and preg would you add ? My next appt. with PCP is in the fall, at which time I'll request a e2 check, and might discuss getting the dhea and pregnenolone checked as well. This may throw up a red flag to her, at which time I may have to admit to having increased the dosage of the Test. E , not sure yet. Figure it'd be best to start off with the test injectable at the recommended dose 100mg/week SQ. Also glad to find out the Deca can be done SQ as well.
Thanks,
zack

[zaggahamma]

i take similar doses as you are (around 100mg weekly) i learned in these 5 years of trt more isnt always better...

like i said...never ran the dhea and preg YET....so gdevine will be the one to chime in with a recommend on that...double check his posts in this thread i think he even mentioned doses already and posted a couple links...you will be among only a few that i have heard that use the subQ method of delivery most go IM..
i think you will do well on 100mg every week thats a very good starting dose and most will end up anywhere from 80-200mg every week and imo most somewhere in the middle of that range(125-150) once they learn their body's response

best of luck

come to think i would wait on those other compounds anyway and get a feel at your new dose before you add in something new so u can accredit what is doing what for you

k done for now...lol

gl

j

[steroid.com 1]

I posted these on another thread but it's relevant here re DHEA and Preg:
Life Extension Magazine has a lot of articles on both DHEA and Preg. Check these out:
http://www.lef.org/search/?q=DHEA&c=Magazine
http://www.lef.org/search/?q=Pregnenolone&c=Magazine

OP - Bass's recommendation is correct.

You need HCG, with 100 mg of Test per week you will go into HPTA shutdown and you will need HCG for alot of reasons not discounting the need for Pregnenolone and if you ever want to re-start and don't want aching shrinking balls that look like a 5 year old. Read Crisler on the need for HCG it's very enlightening.

HCG at 250 iu twice a week minimum (see Crisler). I do 250 iu EOD.

Most, not all, men on a TRT protocol will need an anti aromatase inhibitor to keep estradiol levels in check. You do not want high E2 for a lot of reasons most importantly converting all the good T you are injecting into E2 putting you in an even worse place. (BTW, I like that you are injecting SQ...seems to be getting popular these days)

Rule of thumb for starting an AI: 1 mg per 100 mg of Test taking on the same day (half life of both are pretty close so as T spikes so does the AI).

gd

[zaggahamma]

what was bass's recommendation?

[zaggahamma]

oh....yeh....saw it...talk to the doctor

[bass]

i take similar doses as you are (around 100mg weekly) i learned in these 5 years of trt more isnt always better...

like i said...never ran the dhea and preg YET....so gdevine will be the one to chime in with a recommend on that...double check his posts in this thread i think he even mentioned doses already and posted a couple links...you will be among only a few that i have heard that use the subQ method of delivery most go IM..
i think you will do well on 100mg every week thats a very good starting dose and most will end up anywhere from 80-200mg every week and imo most somewhere in the middle of that range(125-150) once they learn their body's response

best of luck

come to think i would wait on those other compounds anyway and get a feel at your new dose before you add in something new so u can accredit what is doing what for you

k done for now...lol

gl

j

great approach! i am doing this now, i am back on 160 mgs ew, but if 100 mgs works then i'll adjust as necessary. stay healthy and save $$$$$!

[zaggahamma]

great approach! i am doing this now, i am back on 160 mgs ew, but if 100 mgs works then i'll adjust as necessary. stay healthy and save $$$$$!

so u just cut out the deca?

[bass]

oh yea, you didn't see my post on the Blast thread? i stopped due to my PVC's returning! once the PVC's go away I'll try deca again to see if thats whats triggering it! if so I won't use it again, and send you the extra unused vial!

[zack67360]

Thanks gdevine. Excellent reading. Seems as though there are more than one reason to supplement with Preg and DHEA than E2.
z

[zaggahamma]

Thanks gdevine. Excellent reading. Seems as though there are more than one reason to supplement with Preg and DHEA than E2.
z

than e2?

[zaggahamma]

oh yea, you didn't see my post on the Blast thread? i stopped due to my PVC's returning! once the PVC's go away I'll try deca again to see if thats whats triggering it! if so I won't use it again, and send you the extra unused vial!

yeh i thought u were considering droppin out of the entire game it sounded boy u been thru the mill with this stuff

[bass]

yeh i thought u were considering droppin out of the entire game it sounded boy u been thru the mill with this stuff

if i was seeing doctor in stead of a clinic i bet you i wouldn't have gone through this roller-coaster! i think i am just going to stick with 160 for a while along with hCG and see how i do then go from there.

[JD250]

Zack......With you being a nurse you're already way ahead of where many of us started, if your doc trusts your judgement all you need to do is read the articles concerning protocols and/or send your doc copies and you should be doing great in no time......I'm jealous, some of us have been from doc to doc trying to find someone who had even a tiny idea of what TRT should look like.......you should be excited bro!

Good on ya man, I'm happy to see someone with a doc that will work with them.

[zack67360]

Sorry it took so long to post back, but sometimes work gets in the way. Yes, am excited about the articles I've been reading and what the research is saying about how normal aging lowers our hormone levels which seem to be the culprit behind what we call 'Old Age'. Sadly, many Dr.s accept this and tell thier patients "You're getting older" when the patients complain of the symptoms and prescribe yet another pill for them to pop. That is why a person should take an active role in their health care.
Yes, many more reasons to take the DHEA and Pregnenolone than keeping E2 in check. Here is a summary of what I've found out.
DHEA boosts the immune system
Improves mood and fights depression. Also can help curb cravings for recovering addicts.
Prevents chronic inflammation which is believed to be the precurser to cancer.
Increases neuro transmitters in the brain.
Supports the neurons in the brain.
Low DHEA levels corrispond to increased dementia, thus bringing the levels back up to a normal range increases memory and cognitive skills.
Low DHEA levels have been found in people suffering from Alzheimer's, osteoporosis, artherosclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, and certain cancers.
Decreases lipid levels
Dissolves plaque build up in the arteries and prevents more, thus lowering the risk of heart attack.
Protects the thymus from atrophy.
Helps fight infection by combating bacteria, viruses (including HIV by interfering with the replication process) and parasites. Also increased the level of natural interferone which is a powerful anti-viral.
Now, the articles said that DHEA supplementation can promote free radicals in the liver and this can be countered by taking anti-oxidants. The ones found to be most effective were Alpha-lipoic acid, Vit. E, and N-acetylcysteine.

Now for the Pregnenolone, it is a key building block to many neurohormones (including DHEA) and the most versatile.
It reduces dementia, improves memory and cognitive skills.
Promotes the production of new nerve cells and myelination which is the cover that protects the nerve fibers.
Increases levels of acetylcholine which is a neuro transmitter.
Helps control sleep enabling a person to attain REM patterns which is the state of sleep where the brain sorts out the previous days information it has taken in, trashing what it deems as unnecessary and filing away the important information in long term memory.
Helps fight anxiety and depression.

The research for the above was from blind tests done on animals and humans and was repeated over and over.

Another interesting fact is that supplementing with the amino acid L-Glutamine which is also in the protein shake powders (I add extra) increases cognitive ability, but by over stimulating the neurons. Both DHEA and Pregnenolone will protect and reverse the damage that can happen to the nerve endings from the over stimulation.

Now, on a side note, Pregnenolone (basic raw material) is produced from cholesterol and I recall reading that hCG keeps the cholesterol level down by facilitating it's proper function, which would include the production of Preg. I need to read more about the hCG use. Injectable is prefered as with oral a lot goes to waste d/t the digestive tract; thus the problem of where to get the injectable form. DHEA and Preg. can be purchased easily and is cheap, unless some on Captial hill have thier way that is. But that's another can of worms.

I'm still using the testim gel, have increased my dose to two tubes/day and have ordered a vial of the test. E, so hopefully it will be here this week. Now, does the Deca mess with the labido?? I do plan on doing a cycle of it to help my joints.

Yes, my next trip to the doc I hope to share what I've learned here with her.

Thanks for all the help from everyone.
zack

[JD250]

Nice!! I've been reading about preg and DHEA also.......Deca! I love it! My joints feel gooder than ever Just remember EVERYTHING EFFECTS EVERYTHING, there is no free lunch, Deca dick is a real problem but with some research and a judicious application of common sense, moderation and perparedness.....you will be hard pressed to find anything to compare at low doses, there is a balance though.

Here's a place to start looking at Deca. Two write ups about the same compound but both worth the read.

http://www.steroid.com/Deca-Durabolin.php

http://www.steroid.com/Nandrolone.php

[zack67360]

Thanks JD for the info. Will read up on it. Oh, and checked out dosing for Pregnenolone supplementation. Smallest pill is 25mg which I read is too much and has been reported to have caused heart palpitations, irregular heart beat, anger, anxiety, hair loss, headaches. These side effects have been noted in as small as 10mg doses. The recommended dose is 1 or 2mg / day if taken long term. It was even recommended to take every second or third day. Guess I'll get the 25mg and start choppin em down to take. Anyone here taking it, and what have you noticed?
zack

[zaggahamma]

Thanks JD for the info. Will read up on it. Oh, and checked out dosing for Pregnenolone supplementation. Smallest pill is 25mg which I read is too much and has been reported to have caused heart palpitations, irregular heart beat, anger, anxiety, hair loss, headaches. These side effects have been noted in as small as 10mg doses. The recommended dose is 1 or 2mg / day if taken long term. It was even recommended to take every second or third day. Guess I'll get the 25mg and start choppin em down to take. Anyone here taking it, and what have you noticed?
zack

bump for this post

[Dragon666]

Here's the wiki for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnenolone

Sounds like a prohoromone.

From the article...

"Pregnenolone can be converted to androsta-5,16-dien-3 beta-ol by 16-ene synthetase."
"All corticosteroids have numerous and varied pharmacological actions. In humans, single dose or short term (several days) use is virtually without harmful effects. However prolonged therapeutic use of corticosteroids may result in suppression of the pituitary function. The daily threshold dose for this effect is approximately 0.5 mg for a 50 kg individual."


I have no experience with this stuff myself, but after that short article I wouldn't touch it personally...

[zack67360]

Have an appt. with my Dr. tomorrow to discuss my TRT and have some baseline lab drawn on all but the Test and free Test since I'm already on the TRT. Am also going to request DHEA and the Pregnenolone levels checked. After reading up more on the Preg. supplementation, I think 0.5mg twice a week should be safe, but will discuss it with my Dr. and see what she thinks. Now, the lab I'm going to request is:
Estradiol
SHBG
Progesterone
LH
Homocysteine
DHEA
Pregnenolone
HGH
I have several questions though. 1. Is there any others I should ask for? 2. Since I'm 50 and will be on TRT the rest of my life, is it necessary for the LH? 3. Why have the Homocysteine level checked other than for risk of arterial damage and heart attack? I know it's an amino acid and required for muscle growth, but other than that I'm in the dark. I plan on printing off the 3 part article on HRT as reference, as it is very good and will help me make my argument for increasing my test. dose. She had me on the test C, 100mg every 2 weeks, then went to the testim gel., and now want to go back to the depot, and use test E (actually already have it and have started) I must admit to those here, I screwed up a bit. I injected 100mg one day, then three days later another 100mg. After re-reading my thread and the responses I discovered my mistake and that gdevine had recommended 100mg/week, NOT 2x/week. My intention is to depot 2x/week to keep the levels as steady as possible. As for the hcg, from what I have read it's expensive and I doubt I can afford it, even if my insurance would help pay for it which I doubt since it won't even pay on the test injectable. They will pay on the Arimidex though which I'm glad of, in case I need it.
gdevine-after the two injections, the balls have not shrunk but my scrotum has, so basically not hanging at all. I have enjoyed myself though :-)
Thanks,
z

[zaggahamma]

LH not important to check once your already on trt correct it will show low always

[zack67360]

Thanks jp, will mark it off my list then.
z