Toremifene TRT

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02-09-2012, 05:08 AM
Flier

Toremifene TRT

Silly or not?
Have Nebido at hand and can start TRT any time, but I´m stubborn, and want to see if there is any other way.
So for 5 weeks I´ve been doing Toremifene 60mg ED.

Here is my BW 5 weeks ago, ref range, and after 4 weeks on Toremifene (only the essentials):

LH/FSH: 4 (<12) 5
Testosterone : 9 (8-35) 18
Free T: 3.5 (2.3-9.9) 5.5
SHBG : 27 (8-60) 32
E2 : 0.09 (<0.18) 0.13
Prolactin: 134 (<700) 87

So I would call this a dramatic increase i T, I could live with this.
Why a double in T with only 1 U/L increase in LH?
Why would Prolactin decrease?

To the real question, can I just continue with Toremifene as TRT ?
Why do Gel or Pins if stimulating the Pituitary to produce my own T works just as well?
Will Tore or any SERM loose it´s ability to stimulate after a while?
I will continue the Tore, and do another BW after 4 more weeks.

I feel the increase in T at the Gym and in general.
02-09-2012, 07:08 AM
optionsdude

Ask one of the guys on the PCT forum. Swifto is one of the gurus over there.
02-09-2012, 11:52 AM
bass

if you feel good and its working I'd stick with it and see if it keeps improving. not sure why Prolactin went down but that a good thing! SHBG is up a little, you want to keep this one down as well. not sure if you e2 is sensitive assay, but that is high as well, i bet if you lower SHBG and e2 you will increase your test even more. i am not familiar with Toremifene, how do you take it, oral, injections, cream?
02-09-2012, 01:31 PM
ecdysone

I would agree that your LH level should have much more elevated - but since it's a pulsatile substance anyway, could be just a matter of timing.

As regards long-term use, I believe the real issue is not so much safety, but it seems that, for whatever reason, the effect produced by SERMs is much less than when you take supplemental test.
02-09-2012, 01:54 PM
Flier

Quote:

Originally Posted by bass

if you feel good and its working I'd stick with it and see if it keeps improving. not sure why Prolactin went down but that a good thing! SHBG is up a little, you want to keep this one down as well. not sure if you e2 is sensitive assay, but that is high as well, i bet if you lower SHBG and e2 you will increase your test even more. i am not familiar with Toremifene, how do you take it, oral, injections, cream?

Since the results were so promising, I will continue and see what my next BW shows in another 4 weeks.
Agree on the E2/SHBG. But I will do nothing until I see what I settle at, then if I actually continue with this and it works, I will adjust E2 with a little Aromasin.
I take Liquid Tore from ar-r. It´s Swifto´s preferred SERM. It´s supposed to have less emotional sides, and easier on the lipid profile than Clomid.
I will see if I can get a prescription when in the US next month.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecdysone

I would agree that your LH level should have much more elevated - but since it's a pulsatile substance anyway, could be just a matter of timing.

As regards long-term use, I believe the real issue is not so much safety, but it seems that, for whatever reason, the effect produced by SERMs is much less than when you take supplemental test.

What do you mean by effect? Test is Test right? But best If I can produce my own, rather then taking synthetic.
There are some threads on this, and most dismissed as silly, but I´m not sure why. I definitely feel a whole lot better now than a month ago.
Question is, if long term use of Toremifene can cause unknown sides. Or if long term use somehow desensitizes the Pituitary.
03-15-2012, 03:05 AM
Flier

Ok.....so "Toremifene TRT" is no good! Hehe..

This is BW from after 2 months on Tore 60mg ED.

Total Test: 13 (8-35).....dropped from 18 4 weeks ago.
Free Test: 4,7 (2,3-9,9)
LH: 8 (<12)....WAAAAY UP!
FSH: 6 (<12)
Rest about the same. Except TSH is rising (3,5)

So what is going on here?
LH rising and Test dropping???

Going from Secondary Hypo to Primary??

Don´t like the BW so I think I´m ending this experiment today.
03-15-2012, 03:17 AM
lovbyts

Sorry to hear that but that is also what I have heard about long term use of other things also that basically your body adjust for it and it goes back down. Only temporary fix.

As per discussion in another thread have you checked your Vit D count? That has been shown to increase your natural Test also and I believe more long term results.
03-15-2012, 03:40 AM
Flier

I have not tested my Vit D, however I take 1300mcg D3 ED as part of my Multi.
My multi also has 350mcg B12 which gives me the score of 718 (170-650)
03-15-2012, 07:39 AM
DaRoq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flier

Ok.....so "Toremifene TRT" is no good! Hehe..

This is BW from after 2 months on Tore 60mg ED.

Total Test: 13 (8-35).....dropped from 18 4 weeks ago.
Free Test: 4,7 (2,3-9,9)
LH: 8 (<12)....WAAAAY UP!
FSH: 6 (<12)
Rest about the same. Except TSH is rising (3,5)

So what is going on here?
LH rising and Test dropping???

Going from Secondary Hypo to Primary??

Don´t like the BW so I think I´m ending this experiment today.

It's mentioned in TRT: A Recipe for Success (1) that using hCG as sole TRT may induce LH insensitivity, therefore causing Primary Hypogonadism at higher dosages. Not sure if what you're taking is considered a high dose, but it seems to be having the same effect. I wonder if your HPTA actually restarted, and that's why your LH is higher on the same dose of Tore?

The other limitation with this type of TRT is that its effect is dependent on the leydig cells in the testis, meaning that each individual will plateau at some point. As mentioned, you might've been able to maximize testosterone production by getting your Vitamin D levels in check since it supposedly influences leydig cell activity. 5,000-10,000 IU/day is typical for those of us supplementing OTC, while others are taking 50,000 IU/week by prescription.

Testosterone levels while on exogenous TRT is dose-dependent, which is to say that the effect can be much greater. (referring to ecdysone's statement)

(1) John Crisler, DO 2009
03-15-2012, 07:45 AM
Flier

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaRoq

It's mentioned in TRT: A Recipe for Success (1) that using hCG as sole TRT may induce LH insensitivity, therefore causing Primary Hypogonadism at higher dosages. Not sure if what you're taking is considered a high dose, but it seems to be having the same effect. I wonder if your HPTA actually restarted, and that's why your LH is higher on the same dose of Tore?

The other limitation with this type of TRT is that its effect is dependent on the leydig cells in the testis, meaning that each individual will plateau at some point. As mentioned, you might've been able to maximize testosterone production by getting your Vitamin D levels in check since it supposedly influences leydig cell activity. 5,000-10,000 IU/day is typical for those of us supplementing OTC, while others are taking 50,000 IU/week by prescription.

Testosterone levels while on exogenous TRT is dose-dependent, which is to say that the effect can be much greater. (referring to ecdysone's statement)

(1) John Crisler, DO 2009

Hmm...maybe you are on to something about the leydic desensitization.
Good info, thanks.
I stopped my Tore today, will do BW in 4 weeks.