Has anyone convinced their Dr. to increase the frequency of their test. injections?

[killergoalie]

Just wondering if anyone has convinced their Dr. to increase the frequency of their testosterone injections? (Specifically depo-testosterone/testosterone-cypionate)

I was diagnosed with severely low total testosterone (40.3 ng/dl from a range of 241 - 827 ng/dl), so my Dr. prescribed test-cyp injections.

I had my first injection of 150 mg on Feb 23rd, but am not scheduled to receive my next one until March 15th. At the time of my initial injection, I discussed the fact that most TRT recipients, seem to get the best results from weekly, or even 2x, or 3x per week injections to keep a more balanced, and sustained level of testosterone, instead of extreme peaks, and crashes.

My Doctor told me that because I'm using a depo-testosterone, it's a slow release type, so there is no need for a shorter injection criteria. But she did say we could discuss it more on my next visit.

I had follow up BW done a week after that initial injection, and my results were:

Total Testosterone: 11.5 pmol/L from a range of 8.4 - 28.7 pmol/L Which converts to 331.4 ng/dl from a range of 241 - 827 ng/dl. A bit higher than my initial reading, but still significantly low.

Estradiol: 178 pmol/L from a range of < 156 pmol/L OR converted... a result of 48.5 pg/ml from a range of <42 pg/ml.

The lab (B.C. BioMedical Labs) used the Roche - Electrochemiluminescence method of testing. I told them I wanted the sensitive assay for males Estradiol test, but they informed me that the Roche - Electro... was the only test they use.

PSA: 0.38 ug/L from a range of <4.01 ug/L.


So it's clear that my estradiol level is way too high, and I'm going to discuss an A.I. with my Dr. My test level has gone up, but still far too low for my liking. (I still feel like crap, no energy, no motivation, tired, depressed, no strength, etc), but at least my PSA level seems to be fine.

I am 52 years old, a type 2 diabetic, and yes, obese. But my blood sugars are well in control, and I am losing weight. (I've lost 21 lbs. since Jan 6th).

But I think I'm experiencing the "crash" with having gone too long between testosterone injections. I felt great the first 3 - 4 days after my initial shot, but now, feel just as bad, if not worse than before that first dose.

Anyway, sorry for such a long, rambling spiel, but I just wanted to know if anyone has convinced their Dr. to increase the frequency of their injections, and if so, how? I'm also going to ask my Dr. if I could self inject.

Thanks in advance.

[bass]

yes we do that all the time and most doctors agree, however not if you are dealing someone who knows nothing about TRT, like your doctor who is clueless and can hurt you more than treat you! BTW read the stickies in this sections so you know what to do.

[killergoalie]

Thanks bass.

I'll make sure to discuss this with my Dr., who while she may be rather clueless about TRT, has always been open to discussing things with me. Hopefully she'll understand the seriousness of my situation, and how it's effecting me.

I might even provide her with some links to this, and other boards that discuss this topic in a serious, and intelligent manner. Hey whatever it takes.

[JohnnyVegas]

Your doctor's lack of knowledge scares me, but you might end up OK if she is open to discussion. I wouldn't send her here, she may think you are just trying to scam her into getting higher doses of steroids...I mean, look at our avatars. We are all using TRT correctly and responsibly, but many of us ended up here because it works with our bodybuilding hobby.

I recently read an interview with a Harvard Medical School professor that specializes in prostate diseases and male sexual and reproductive difficulties. He seemed knowledgable, but said the downside of injections is that the patient needs to come in "every couple of weeks" for a shot. He acknowledges that this causes a roller-coaster effect, but doesn't mention more frequent injections as a fix. Probably because traditional doctors are uncomfortable giving the drugs to us for self administration.

EDIT: the link I placed had the letters C E M so it would work because of the forum censoring (or whatever it is called), so I did a TinyURL of it: http://tinyurl.com/6mm54sr

Hopefully that link is allowed. It is a medical publication, not a business.

At the bottom of the interview the make it a point to say the doctor presents a compelling argument in favor of TRT, but his views are not universally accepted. We still have a way to go.

[killergoalie]

Thanks JohnnyVegas. Much appreciated.

Good point about not sending my Dr. to this board...not that it's not a viable, and informative source, but yeah, because of the reasons you gave. A lot of people definitely have a very narrow opinion, and view on certain subjects.

Thanks also for the link. (unfortunately it says page not found). Thanks though.

[JohnnyVegas]

Thanks JohnnyVegas. Much appreciated.

Good point about not sending my Dr. to this board...not that it's not a viable, and informative source, but yeah, because of the reasons you gave. A lot of people definitely have a very narrow opinion, and view on certain subjects.

Thanks also for the link. (unfortunately it says page not found). Thanks though.

Check out my post above again - I noticed the link problem, so I posted it a different way.Not that the link helps you...but it is slightly interesting to hear someone other than a sketchy clinic doctor talk about TRT.

[bass]

i agree with JV, but maybe you can take some good info based on studies from Dr. Crisler's website and some of the stickies here, and just tell here you got it from the Internet.

[killergoalie]

Thanks again JohnnyVegas.

Likewise bass.

Good idea, and suggestions about Dr. Crisler, and the stickies.

[PetrX]

I actually convinced my dr to go from 100 evry 2 weeks to 150 every week.. my dr asked me why and I explained and since I'm studying medicine right now, he agreed to allow me to do the 150 a week..my advice would be to research a good explanation on why the dr should increase your test and present it to him..good luck

[ecdysone]

Estradiol: 178 pmol/L from a range of < 156 pmol/L OR converted... a result of 48.5 pg/ml from a range of <42 pg/ml.
The lab (B.C. BioMedical Labs) used the Roche - Electrochemiluminescence method of testing. I told them I wanted the sensitive assay for males Estradiol test, but they informed me that the Roche - Electro... was the only test they use.

The Roche Elecsys Estradiol 11 assay they used isn't too useful below about 15-20 pg/ml, but works fine at your levels - which are a bit on the high side.

But for certain, if you start using an AI, you will need to use another lab for E2.

[Brohim]

I actually convinced my dr to go from 100 evry 2 weeks to 150 every week.. my dr asked me why and I explained and since I'm studying medicine right now, he agreed to allow me to do the 150 a week..my advice would be to research a good explanation on why the dr should increase your test and present it to him..good luck

I concur with this. Print out the half-life of test cyp and show it to her. Show her Dr. Crisler protocol and tell her he is the leading doc in the field.

Damn I can't beleive how dumb some doctors are.

[kelkel]

Read the stickies above and research the half-life of cypionate. Present these facts to your doctor.

^^^Didn't see yours till after posting! You took the words right out of my mouth!

[killergoalie]

Thanks for the heads up Ecdysone. I'll make sure to make a note of that, and find a lab that uses a different method to test for Estradiol. (I'm guessing it has to be the sensitive assay test). Hopefully we have those in B.C. Canada.

Thanks again also to everyone who has replied. You have been very helpful, and have provided me with some very helpful information, and suggestions.

I will take your advice, and present as good a case that I can. Hopefully it will convince my Dr.

[bass]

it is preferred but it doesn't have to be sensitive assay.

[Times Roman]

i had to upgrade from gp to endo to increase the frequency from biweekly to weekly

[Vettester]

Definitely keep us posted on how things turnout. If you could even get no less than 1 shot per week you would be going in the right direction. Most patients start therapy then run labs again in 6 weeks.

[killergoalie]

Thanks again everyone for all the advice, information, and suggestions.

I will be sure to keep you posted.

[GFA]

See if you can get a script and just inject yourself. No waiting in the docs office, do it whenever you want.

My GP prescribes 200mg/ml 10 ml vials. Lasts 4+ months at 100mg a week.

[killergoalie]

Thanks GFA.

I actually have a prescription for some test-cyp. 200mg/ml 10 ml vials, but there is such a shortage here in Vancouver, B.C. that not one pharmacy I went to had any. So I had to get a 100mg/ml 10 ml vial. (I have one refill on file for the same amount). I had my first injection of 150 mg on Feb. 23 from the vial I have, so basically I have 850 mg remaining in the first vial if my math is correct.

I was thinking about self injecting, but I still want to see my Dr. about an A.I. prescription since my E2 level is so high.

Also I'd have to see my Dr. to get the referral for any Blood Work, since it's free if a Dr. refers you.

But my Dr. is quite reasonable, so I doubt a BW referral would be a problem.

[GFA]

Weird we have supply issues too. What kind of test cyp you using? I have Watons. Only place that had it was Walgreens, was on back-order at CVS. I think ill get my scripts refilled early just to have in case of supply issues in the future.

Since they only had 100mg/ml can you get 2 vials?

[JAMIE07652]

Not to change the tone of this string , but . I read the FAQ on dr christlers site and when on hrt diabetics end up reducing their meds while on test . I thought that interesting . Please look into that . Good luck and welcome

[killergoalie]

GFA,

I got Pfizer brand Depo-Testosterone/Testosterone-Cypionate. Found it at a local Wal-Mart pharmacy. Since they only had 100mg/ml vials, I would have gotten two, but they only had one vial in stock. Which is why I have a "refill" available indicated on the box, and on the pharmacy's computer records. (They just have to get more in stock...which there still seems to be a shortage of.)

JAMIE07652:

Thanks for the info about diabetics on TRT. I read that also about how some were able to reduce their medication because of TRT. Hopefully I could be one of them. One step at a time of course. I just want to stop feeling like crap all the time.

[JAMIE07652]

U said it best , one step at a time . I hope all good things go your ways bro ..

[killergoalie]

Thanks Jamie! Likewise for you.

[600@50]

Killer....sounds like you have come to the right place. These guys can help you out. My endo actually listens to me. I asked him if I could go to 200 mgs a week to see how I feel and he said sure. He just wants to do bw a couple times a year. Yeah print out some facts on cyp and show your doc. You may have to go to an endo that has more expertise in the area of TRT. Have patience and keep doing your research. Best of luck and keep us posted.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

My doc started me on 2x/week injections. I changed it on my own to 3x/week injections and told my doc next time I saw him. He had the blood results in front of him and could see the results were good. So it was a moot discussion at that point. I have also found that docs are more open to your preferences when you demonstrate that you are going to do what you think is best, including finding a good doc if you think your doc is bad.

The only downside is I had to buy my own needles to make up the difference. The ones I get by prescription are about half the price as the ones I get online; however, that small amount of money is no bid deal. My doc still wrote the new script as 2x/week subque even though he knows I'm going to do the same amount broken into 3 shots per week. He "verabally" told me 3x/week seemed to be fine; however, he has to protect himself from any legal concerns, etc.

[Far from massive]

The trouble with the idea of frequent injections is one of insurance costs ( if the doctor/nurse is injecting) or liability issues arrising out of allowing the patient to inject themselves. Like most medicines its what is most economical not what is best.

In addition to lessening the roller coaster the more frequent injections will also drop your E2 scores as smaller more frequent injections are less likely to cause the same amount of aromatization.

Good luck with it.

By the way you could always look for another medical source for your test.

[killergoalie]

The trouble with the idea of frequent injections is one of insurance costs ( if the doctor/nurse is injecting) or liability issues arrising out of allowing the patient to inject themselves. Like most medicines its what is most economical not what is best.

In addition to lessening the roller coaster the more frequent injections will also drop your E2 scores as smaller more frequent injections are less likely to cause the same amount of aromatization.

Good luck with it.

By the way you could always look for another medical source for your test.

Lowering my E2 level is one reason why I'd like to do more frequent injections. I was just wondering since they're currently so high if I should use an A.I. to lower them a bit first, and get them to a more reasonable/sensible level in as quick a time as possible.

I also want to have more frequent injections to lose the rollercoaster effect.

I'm seeing my Dr. this Thursday for my next injection, and I will be discussing all this with her.

I may even end up buying my own needles, and syringes etc so I can inject myself. Just not sure if I'd stick with IM, or do the injections Sub-Q.

But for now my first priority is to at least get on a regular injection protocol, get my E2 levels down substantially, and start to feel better.

I'll probably have a much better idea of how things are going to progress after this Thursday.


Thanks again everyone for all your help, and advice.