Study shows Testosterone decreases collagen synthesis

[jimmy79]

Hey folks

I found a study that shows Testosterone does not increase collagen at all. It actually decreases collagen synthesis.

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5600357a.html

Search for this in that journal: "parent compound testosterone actually decreased collagen synthesis"
It's under the heading "Discussion".

The study actually compares testosterone to stanozolol (stanozolol increases collagen synthesis). But we don't use stanozolol for TRT so just ignore that part of the study.
What I'm interested in is their accidental discovery that exogenous testosterone decreases collagen synthesis!

Please note the "exogenous". People with normal testosterone levels not taking any exogenous testosterone would NOT have any decrease in collagen synthesis.
So what I'm proposing is my theory that when a person uses just enough exogenous testosterone for his TRT, that person would have a decrease in collagen synthesis because there is something lacking in his system besides the testosterone that gets shut-down when using an exogenous source.

Using exogenous testosterone we are shutting-down more than 1 hormone. We are shutting down LH&FSH production as well. GnRH (gonadotropin releasing hormone) also gets shut-down.
I bet we are shutting down other hormones we don't even know about yet.

So the ultimate question would be what is getting shut down that makes our bodies produce more collagen? ..and where can I get more of that? :P

/J

[swllce]

There is thread on this subject on the forum,
Just search the term collagen synthesis.
Gh increases collagen synthesis the most,followed by anavar and then nandrolone decaonate.
Running any of those continuosly with trt could get expensive and taxing on the liver and heart.

[jimmy79]

I think we can safely discount Gh because this is not shut-down when we use exogenous testosterone . It actually gets increased. Mine doubled after a year of TRT.

Anavar (Oxandrolone) - derived from DHT by substituting the second carbon atom for oxygen.

I don't think our bodies make anavar . But if we could identify what in (or how) these substances increase collagen we could find an answer.
Until we find out we could probably use them continuously for now. But I wouldn't use anavar because just a small amount wrecks havoc on you cholesterol.
Some percentage of Anavar converts to DHT which then strengthens collagen but also decreases collagen. So it looks like Anavar would only be a short-term solution.

Nandrolone Decanoate - Ester of the compound "Nandrolone"
Nandrolone (19-nortestosterone)

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone)
"Nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) is an anabolic steroid that may be present naturally in the human body.."

A-ha! I think we have a winner!? :-)

I would reason that natural Nandrolone also gets shut-down after a person starts using exogenous testosterone.
Has anyone here had Nandrolone blood tests done before and after TRT ? ....Anyone want to do some bw so we can confirm this finding?

/J

[GotNoBlueMilk]

The study used 0.65 ug - 5 ug in the test. That is the equivalent of 56 mg - 454 mg of Test injection in a 200 lb person. Interesting thing was their graph showed the 0.65 ug Test sample hindered collagen production more than the 5 ug Test sample. But no Test at all produced even more collagen in the baseline test than both the 0.65 and 5 ug sample. When a very little dose produces less favorable results than a large does, but no dose produces the best results of all, something is amiss!

[jimmy79]

Hey GotNoBlueMilk

My guess is that some percentage of testosterone must then convert into Nandrolone which in turn does its job on Collagen.

So having no exogenous testosterone would leave a person with normal Nandrolone levels.(4.75 Collagen)
As soon as testosterone is given exogenously Nandrolone levels drops to 0 because of the HPTA feedback loop that shuts down LH,FSH,TEST & GnRH
Giving 0.625 Testosterone creates some Nandrolone (2.75 Collagen)
Giving a little bit more, 1.25 Testosterone creates even more Nandrolone (3.0 Collagen)
Giving even more, 5.0 Testosterone creates even more Nandrolone (3.75 Collagen)

Here is what I see: Figure 4.
0 ug/ml Testosterone => 4.75 (base line value)
0.625 ug/ml Testosterone => 2.75
1.25 ug/ml Testosterone => 3.0
5.0 ug/ml Testosterone => 3.75

What we need to figure out is how much testosterone is needed in vivo to give us our base line Collagen or Nandrolone.
Now if someone would please do some bloodwork :-)

I think a Nandrolone blood test should actually be one of the main things we check before going on TRT.

[Heapsreal]

What about small doses of progesterone for collagen synthesis. This is sometimes used in men for antiaging reasons. Just a thought as deca is sometimes classed as a progesterone derivative.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

The thing about deca is the studies seem to show it is a temporary healer. After you stop, you eventually lose the benefit you gained while on the deca. A lot of these studies then concluded that deca probably didn't bring about permanent healing.

Now I hate many studies for a variety of reasons, and the deca studies fall into the hate category because they fail to consider basic human physiology. That being, if your body needs something to get better, and a certain amount to stay better, then you will get worse after you stop adding that compound. Just like Test. If your body doesn't produce enough, you supplement and feel better, but then stop you will feel worse. Does that mean Test is not bringing about a positive change? So deca quite possibly falls into this same category. The problem is deca is a poor choice for a lifetime therapy.

Anyway, back to the test study. Jimmy seems to raise a good point. So the real question now is what will raise our Nandrolone levels and we can use as a lifetime therapy, like a vitamin or something. Seems that combing that with TRT would be a good idea. Especially since most of us are way below the 5 ug equivalent of Test in that study.

[NEMESIS RR]

I read somewhere that anything over 200mg a week will decrease collagen synthesis. So looking at the study when you first inject your own system is still producing. Thus any test leading to a higher than acceptable reading for the individual will lead to a decreas in the synthesis.

[doc w]

We should remember a large amount of these studies are in vitro studies where fibroblasts are exposed to a singular agent and conclusions are drawn. There are also many different types of collagen. Which serve multiple functions such as type II which makes up articulate cartilage and type I which occurs primarily and that these structures are often a mixture of several types of collagen. Trying to draw a conclusion about how anabolics effect the synthesis from these studies therefore proves difficult. What we do know people that take anabolics have a higher rate of tendon injury, but is this is a cause or effect. Perhaps the steroids overloads the tendons ability to withstand loads before it can catch up in structural strength.

[yannick35]

I have added testosterone suspension to my prolotherapy treatment along with HGH , T is at 50mg per injection, totalling 150mg, my prolo treatment has been basting.

I am very sceptial about this, also based on a very old study that has been running around the internet for a while.

Deca , equipoise , anavar have all been said to increase collagen and test above 200mg per week will decrease it. But from the studies its type 3 not related to ligaments.

HGH works on all type of collagen.

Steroids will help heal faster this is why most underground medecin (the only medecin that has the balls to use steroids to heal) is working with anabolics.

Like i said i am taking theses studies with a grain of salt, like the studies with rabbits leg that where injected deca to make there ligaments stronger.....

[yannick35]

We should remember a large amount of these studies are in vitro studies where fibroblasts are exposed to a singular agent and conclusions are drawn. There are also many different types of collagen. Which serve multiple functions such as type II which makes up articulate cartilage and type I which occurs primarily and that these structures are often a mixture of several types of collagen. Trying to draw a conclusion about how anabolics effect the synthesis from these studies therefore proves difficult. What we do know people that take anabolics have a higher rate of tendon injury, but is this is a cause or effect. Perhaps the steroids overloads the tendons ability to withstand loads before it can catch up in structural strength.

People on steroids feel the pain after the cycle not while on. I agree with your post and the type of collagen in the body very important. Steroids either with water retention (?) or pain relief acting has an anti inflammatory will cover most pain while on. This is where deca is so controverisial does it heal or mask the pain.

[fatman225]

I've just been doing a lot of homework on the board, not on TRT or HRT, but since it involves the subject of AAS, and the subject is less than 6 months old, BUMP.

I also say in advance, RANT WARNING IN EFFECT. If you don’t like to read rants, please skip.

One thing that bothers me so much about the business of AAS/TRT/HRT etc... is the lack of good scientific information, and the incredible amount of parroting on the boards.

I have not been able to find the study that actually DEMONSTRATES how testosterone in supra-physiologic amounts lowers the strength of connective tissue.

I have yet to find the STUDY showing conclusively that above physiologic levels of testosterone actually lower collagen synthesis by up to 80%, even though we see that article about it getting re-posted, as it has been for almost 10 years.

People assume it is true, because there is always some huge guy who tears a muscle, but that does NOT establish a true causative relationship between his injury and testosterone.

It could be that it is the huge size of the muscle and the load that resulting in tearing a tendon that was not as strong as the muscle, but in fact still no weaker than it was pre-testosterone use.

Everyone who read that article just assumes then it’s the cause of the injury, and continues to parrot.

I still have yet to see the original study.

What bothers me about this is that it fits the pattern of Bro-Science.

One other example is the having to eat 8 times a day to diet or to gain, which has recently come under question do to the success of Intermittent Fasting.

I know a lot of guys who are on TRT, many of them taking rather high end doses, 200mg EW being rather common, and that is pretty high compared to a normal man. Not insane, but surely it often puts guys at the top of the range.

Only one of these guys has had a torn muscle, and he was doing a 1 rep max with 450+ pounds on a Flat Bench at the time.

Does that REALLY prove that testosterone had weakened his tendons?

Then there are the guys who claim that it has to be AI’s like anastrozole which must weaken tendons because it lowers circulating E2, and with lower E2 the IGF-1 lowers, just like nolva can do.

On the other hand, when you actually look as studies done on cancer patients the use of anastrozole actually INCREASED IGF-1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488

Abstract
Insulin -like growth factors (IGFs) play a fundamental role in cancer development by acting in both an endocrinal and paracrinal manner, and hormone breast cancer treatments affect the IGF system by modifying circulating growth factor levels. We evaluated total IGF-1, IGF-2, IGF binding protein (IGFBP)-1 and IGFBP-3 in the blood of 34 postmenopausal advanced breast cancer patients (median age 63 years, range 41-85) treated with anastrozole, a non-steroidal structure aromatase inhibitor (NSS-AI). The plasma samples were obtained at baseline, and after 2, 4, 8 and 12 weeks of treatment. The IGFs were quantitated by means of sensitive radioimmunoassays (RIAs). IGF-1 significantly increased during anastrozole treatment (baseline versus 12 weeks, P=0.031), IGF-2 showed a trend towards an increase, and IGFBP-1 constantly but not significantly decreased; IGFBP-3 did not seem to be affected at all. The anastrozole-induced changes in IGFs and IGFBP-1 appeared to be different in the patients receiving a clinical benefit from those observed in non-responders. We have previously shown that letrozole (a different type of NSS-AI) modifies blood IGF-1 levels, and the results of this study of the biological effects of anastrozole on the components of the IGF system confirm our previous observations.
PMID:
11983488
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Then there are those saying that IGF-1 does not increase connective tissue strength, and some saying the complete opposite.

I’m not going to claim either one, but all I can say is that we should question everything, look for the source of the info, and not ever assume a causative relationship.

/Rant.

[SEOINAGE]

I agree with your on never assuming a causative relationship, it is done all too often in all regards of life. Good input though, as this was a topic that made me really wonder if it could be detrimental to ones overall health. I've been doing great personally on trt so far.