Ejaculate load has gotten *really* small, any suggestions on what I can add to my HRT

[forrest_and_trees]

I've been on HRT for 3 years now, but even long before I began, my loads diminished to nothing. Now it's just a few drops and yellowish. I'm 44 and taking 200mg Test Cyp a week, administered bi-weekly. 250IUs of HCG 3x a week. .25-.5mg of Arimidex daily as needed. along with a handful of vitamins [DHEA, D3, Zinc, Saw Palmetto, Magnesium, and probiotics.]

I just got my latests blood work back two days ago and everything is looking great; better than ever in fact, but my loads are still too small.

I've seen some suggestions of Clomid, but also heard there are some downsides. I've also seen some of these new male supplements, specifically for increasing your load, like Ogoplex, but they sound like snake oil.

Any suggestions on what *really* works?

Thanks.

F/T

[steroid.com 1]

One question, and it's not a joke:

How much do you masturbate? Once a day...twice...more?

I don't know of any supplement that can increase the amount of ejaculate you may wish for.

I guess at the end of the day...why is the amount of ejaculate so important to you if your orgasm is at good as its always been?

Hell, I'd give up all gism if I could triple the intensity of my orgasm

[Vettester]

Good to see you, Forrest!

Small loads can = frustration! For most secondary men (like myself), HCG is the solution for that problem. I know when I started on it a few years ago, I went from hardly anything to looking like one of those old fashion rotating sprinklers on the front lawn! It's just a case of the testicles getting the LH analog, which had been suppressed for so very long in the pituitary, better known as the HPTA.

So, the puzzling part is you're taking HCG! In that aspect, it could be a couple of things if you are not seeing any activity coming from HCG ...

1) Your leydigs are not receptive to the LH analogue administered from HCG, rendering you desensitized from any HCG therapy.
2) There is possibly something wrong with your HCG and/or your reconstitution and/or how you store it.

Couple of questions ...
When you first started HCG, did your "diminished" load situation improve? If so, did it gradually decline over time or did it just all the sudden go to nothing on you? Do you feel a tightening sensation and/or any pain during the ejaculations? Have you noticed a difference with the size of your testicles at any point before starting HCG, and any difference since you've been taking it?

Don't underestimate that HCG can go bunk on you in a hurry. It happened to me last week with a vial that was less than a week old. I realized that I had no spares for backup (oversight on my part). I've learned that storing the unconstituted HCG in the fridge until you mix seems to work better, plus avoid having it exposed to any light. I don't know really what went wrong with that last vial, but it definitely went wrong! I just got the replacements on Tuesday, and things are coming back to normal again.

The "yellowish" description obviously sounds like urine getting into the mix. I see that on occasion if my bladder isn't completely empty. Might be time for a good prostate exam (if there is such a thing), and a urinalysis lab. Maybe you have already covered this base? Possibly a Urologist can review this for you too.

On the Clomid therapy. Clomid is used to stimulate the pituitary to produce endogenous LH/FSH. Couple of potential issues ... You have been on HRT for several years, probably because your axis was mildly or severely suppressed from producing LH/FSH. LH signals the testes to produce testosterone , thus one great reason to add HCG to a HRT protocol.

The isssues I see are that your HPTA has been suppressed so long, and Clomid probably won't have any effect on it. Additionally, if it did have an effect on it, then what benefit will it provide you if your testicles are not receptive to LH? Whether delivered by the HPTA or by HCG, LH is LH, and the testicles either reciprocate with it or they don't.

The HPTA works on a feedback loop as well, so it would never sustain continued production of this hormone while you administer testosterone cypionate , or any other form of exogenous testosterone, unless you continue to take it. Clomid isn't something that you can take for a long-time therapy like HCG.

[Vettester]

One question, and it's not a joke:

How much do you masturbate? Once a day...twice...more?

OK, GD, break the ice and be the first to tell ...

Forrest, L-Arginine has been touted by many as great way to ramp up the loads. Check it out.

[steroid.com 1]

^^^^It's all about storage Vette...if I don't rub one-out for a few days and the wife and I get it "on" hell yea man...it's a helluva mess

If I rub one out on a daily basis and we have the same sex...it's all good...just not the same amount of mess!

There are so many physiological reasons for low ejaculate that I doubt we could answer that question here.

Arginine and Citrulline are good amino acids for increase in NO2 and better erections among other supps...

[bass]

lmao!

Forest, what do your test levels look like? i am thinking 200 mgs per week for three years maybe be a side effect from over dosing! just speculating here.

[Vettester]

lmao!

Forest, what do your test levels look like? i am thinking 200 mgs per week for three years maybe be a side effect from over dosing! just speculating here.

It's actually a good speculation. It's all about balance, and if one thing gets out of whack it can sometimes become a domino effect on others.

I remember when Forrest joined here, and if not mistaken there was quite the E2 problem at that time.

Forrest, I know you said your labs looked great, but if you get a few do you mind posting some of the significant ones down with the ranges? Muchos thanksias!

[Vettester]

^^^^It's all about storage Vette...if I don't rub one-out for a few days and the wife and I get it "on" hell yea man...it's a helluva mess

Sounds like we're in a similar boat. Those road trips can leave stains on the ceiling when I come home!

[forrest_and_trees]

First things first, the problem began, *before* I started my HRT. Now that things are better, the loads haven't changed, and frequency has little effect. But for the record, I masturbate a few times a week. Some days when I'm firing on all cylinders, I do it a couple times in a day.

I'm concerned for a couple reasons. One, my climax is not as satisfying as it used to be, and two, I'm a bit self conscious about it.

Yes I did have a big prob with E2 when I fist began TRT, it was 163 at my worst. [ouch, yes I know] Now that I'm on Arimidex , I'm constantly around 6-8. I've gotten pretty good at sensing my levels and can tell when it goes up, especially after I inject HCG . I definitely feel better with lower numbers.

My boys were getting pretty small and achey before I began the HCG. One of the fist things I noticed after starting HCG was my mood greatly improved. I've noticed I stay much more calm and at peace even when ish hits the fan. I used to get pretty worked up, but not nearly as much any more. In fact, I've had a number of situations where by all rights I should have lost it, but was surprisingly calm.

My boys did re-inflate, but they never got back to original size like they were when I was at my peak in my 20's. I'd say they fluctuate from about 55-65% of peak. At their worst, they were about 20%.

I don't feel any tightening or pain when I ejaculate, but I did have problems with being able to urinate steadily, after I began TRT. But Saw Palmetto has taken care of that. [Thanks Vette for the recommendation!]

It's hard for me to tell how potent my batches of HCG are, because I've never have a strong reaction to it. So the first injection with a new batch doesn't feel much different than the last. It could be in the way I'm reconstituting it. I usually inject 2ml of bac-water into the vial, swirl it gently, then extract and transfer it to the mixing vial. But maybe I'm not being gentle enough when handling the vial. I repeat the same step again to get any last bit out of the HCG vial. Finally add 1ml to the mixing vial for a total of 5ml for 5000IU of HCG.

I haven't been using an 18g needle though, usually a 25g, so maybe that's part of the problem. I've also got a 30ml vial of Bac-Water that I'm using up, so you could say I've inserted "dirty" needles into it several times. By dirty I mean, ones that have been inserted into an HCG vial, squirted into a mixing vial, then re-inserted back into the bac-water for a refill and used continually over a few months, until the full 30mls is used up. I do keep the bac-water in the fridge too when not in use.

Last year, I did begin pre-filling all my syringes immediately after mixing and then storing them in the fridge. I found it makes it easier and I'm not constantly taking the HCG vial out of the fridge and letting it warm up every few days. So this *seem* to keep the HCG fresh.

I've been buying on line, and did recently switch HCG suppliers to one that others have claimed to get good HCG that's tested positive. It's hard to tell which is best, but some do seem slightly better than others.

My last blood panel was: [Level / Range]

Serum Test=1131 / 348-1197
Estro Sensitive=6 / 3-70
TSH=.006 / .45-4.5 [I'm on Thyroid meds, Westhroid.]
T4= 9.3 / 4.5-12
T3=38 / 24-39
IGF-1=166 / 101-267
PSA=.6 / .0-4.0
RBC=5.43 / 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 15.5 /12.6-17.7
BUN= 17 / 6-24
Serum Creatinine .9 / .76-1.27
eGFR= 104 / >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 19 / 9-20
AST (SGOT)= 25 / 0-40
ALT (SGPT) = 24 / 0-55
Total Cholest= 147 / 100-199 [down form 182 when I began]
Tri=110 / 0-149 [down from 150]
HDL= 42 / >39 [up from 35]
VLDL= 22 / 5-40
LDL= 83 / 0-99 [down from 133]

I know that's a lot of info, but hopefully I've covered everything and answered all the questions. If there's anything I left out, let me know.

Thanks all for the input.

[jimmy79]

Forest_and_Trees,

Baby Aspirin every morning. Works from day 1.

btw, aspirin is also an AI

[bass]

Forest, i see your PSA is in good health range, have you done physical prostate exam? as you know prostate is one of the gland that produces the seamen, so checking may not be a bad idea.

[bass]

Forest_and_Trees,

Baby Aspirin every morning. Works from day 1.

btw, aspirin is also an AI

Jimmy, are there real studies to your claim regarding aspirin being an AI?

[J DIESEL3]

^^^^ I would like to know that as well...

[grilla]

This study is referenced in posts elsewhere on the subject.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....ticleid=198810

grilla

[forrest_and_trees]

Jimmy- actually I do take a low dose Aspirin every day, 81mg.

grilla- as far as that study is concerned. It may work for some, but I'd been taking NSAIDs almost daily for years, when my E2 was at 160. So it certainly didn't work for me.

Bass- I haven't had a prostate exam in about 6 years. Although I do visit my GP regularly, [saw him Monday] he's never felt the need for it. As much as I'm not a fan of it, perhaps I should mention it next time I see him.

[oscar1990]

jimmy79- aspirin is an AI?

this could become interesting...

[kelkel]

Did I read that correctly that your E level runs steady at 6 - 8 now? If that is on a sensitive assay then your damn low. Remember estrogen is a factor in the creation of sperm in your testicals. I've read that wheat germ increases ejaculate.

[Vettester]

Forrest, I agree totally with Kelkel on this. You've seen one extreme in the past when you were super high on your E2, well now you're at a very low range, which is also not healthy. There's a myriad of reasons to get your E2 level up in the 20's or 30's, including sexual wellness.

I would suggest consulting your doctor, or a good urologist to review the condition of your testicles. You may need to run some testosterone labs with and without HCG just to see how effective it is in your protocol. When I was on a 200mg/wk cyp protocol, I added 250iu x 3/wk of HCG. In my case, my serum levels increased substantially due to the effectiveness of HCG with me. I was able to successfully lower my cyp dosage to 120mg/wk with the addition of HCG to sustain a manageable serum score. In my case, it was a good trial and error period to see just how effective HCG really was for me.

[forrest_and_trees]

My ejaculate was low *long before I began any protocols* and has not changed regardless of me E2 or T levels, etc.

I knoe my E2 has gone from ridiculously high to the bottom end of normal, but it's still in the normal range. When I began taking an AI, I was on .5mg daily and I could tell when my E2 crashed. I got all the classic symptoms.

Now that I've determined a protocol that works for me, all those symptoms are gone. I can tell when my E2 levels begin to rise within hours of taking HCG . My first indicator is puffy nipples, then irritability /moodiness, and general water retention, and my erections are not as strong as well as my libido drops.

Vetteman, you know I respect the hell out of you and value your input and vast knowledge, but you know me, I can be hard headed and I'm going to need some more hard facts and studies to support this theory, before I start screwing with what has been working for me.

Also, keep in mind, I'm paying out of pocket, so I'm limited to how often or how many tests I can run or which MD's I can see.

Thanks again.

[Vettester]

Forrest, you are indeed a hard sell at this place ... It's all good!

Life Extension is a great reliable resource for those looking to gain knowledge in the area of anti-aging and health in general! Here's one particular article that I find beneficial for information on E2. http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/...ing-Men_01.htm

I'm also trying to find an article that I read in the Journals of Endocrinology, which compliments a lot of this stuff. I'll forward that if I can find it ...

Definitely not saying that you need to overhaul your program, but ALL of us from time-to-time need to tweak and/or refine things a little. Trust me chief, your E2 isn't normal sitting at 6 pg/ml. Again, incremental adjustments need to be reviewed by a qualified physician as I mentioned earlier. When E2 gets in the tank (I've been there), a lot of what you experience when it comes back up is better known as estrogen rebound. Several of us have been through it ... We can chat more on that subject at another point if desired.

[forrest_and_trees]

Hey thanks Vette, I'll be sure to check out that site. Could you give me a little more insight on the Estro Rebound? I tried looking it up but it all seemed related to cycling, which obviously does not apply to HRT. Are you saying that the symptoms of elevated E2 will temporarily spike, then come back down to a more desirable level if I don't keep knocking it down with the AI? In other words, just live with the symptoms for a while and they'll go away once the E2 stabilizes at a higher level?

[kelkel]

If you went off the AI completely it could easily spike up searching for its new "norm." I would suggest, as would Vette I'd bet, to just titrate your AI dosage back a bit and check your E in a month to see your new level. If you go off cold turkey have some Nolva on hand to control nip issues.

[forrest_and_trees]

Hey Vette- I just re-read this post and realized the tone may sound a little off-putting. I just want to say that is not at all the intention. I'm genuinely interested in and concerned about this subject matter and want to know more. ...regards. F/T

According to the information on the link you provided:

"A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) measured blood estradiol (a dominant estrogen) in 501 men with chronic heart failure. Compared to men in the balanced estrogen quintile, men in the lowest estradiol quintile [levels under 12.90 pg/mL] were 317% more likely to die during a 3-year follow-up, while men in the highest estradiol quintile were 133% more likely to die." ...They went on to state, "the "ideal" Estradiol range is, "between 21.80 and 30.11"

However, if I'm reading correctly, this is in reference to men with "chronic heart failure". How does it apply to men *without* chronic heart failure? Also, what were the causes of lowered E2? It doesn't mention anything about AIs or T levels either. Do you have any additional sources for that information? I'd be interested in reading up on that further. I tried searching, but everything I found referenced the same study.

That aside, assuming a slightly higher level would be ideal for me, it begs the question, would it be possible for me to do without all the negative side effects. I.E., being pissed off at the world all the time, breaking out, fits of rage, puffy nipples, retaining water and always being generally moody? ...And if so, how?

Believe me, I'm no fun to be around when my E levels go up. I'd imagine the elevated stress levels, that would accompany higher E levels, would not be good for my health and longevity either.

Lastly, would it have *any* effect on ejaculate levels? ...Which was, after all, the original question on this thread.