22 Years old, Low test... having a hard time with the doc. Help please

[Veins Of Frost]

guys! Ok so pretty much all my life, I've looked like a little kid. I've never really had a sex drive compared to my peers and after working out for a solid 10 months with nearly perfect nutrition, I wasn't seeing results...

So I went to my GP and told him I wanted a test blood sample.

He wrote it for me; my insurance doesn't cover this stuff.. only costs after $7k out of pocket. Results came back and it was the following

Test: 236 ng/dl Normal Range 350-1500 ng/dl

I asked him if this was free or total and he said "there's only one kind u can measure; I don't know of any other tests."

I already paid $360 out of pocket for the test and then I find out that there are other protocols after discovering these forums.

He suggested I get a "second opinion" from an Endo and referred me to one. However, I'm not sure what to do at this point. I already paid for the docs fees and now he's referring me to some lady endo in DFW.

If someone could possibly recommend anyone in this area or tell me what my next step should be, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!
Veins.

[Vettester]

Veins, welcome to the forum. Really sorry that you are having to deal with this at such a young age. Also, sorry that you are also dealing with a doctor, from what you described, is essentially useless for understanding your condition. Your total serum lab should have thrown a HUGE red flag at him that something is wrong.

In the meantime, run with the endo that he referring you to, and maybe be on the lookout for Plan "B". Plan B starts with reading the sticky with finding a TRT doctor, located at the top of the forum. In that thread, you will also find a complete list of BW labs that you should focus on, which will help paint a better picture.

I would definitely want to see your LH/FSH labs, along with thyroid panels, and pretty much everything else. If your LH/FSH is low (which I suspect it is), then the next step in the path SHOULD be your physician ordering up an MRI. Also, just an FYI on labs ... You can get 90% of the needed labs for less than $300 at privatemdlabs.com, which will discreetly set you up at your local Labcorp. A lot of us have coupons for 15% off the bottom line, so let us know if it comes to that.

By no means do I want you taking this matter into your own hands, but if you get stuck having to get another doctor, you might be able to get a head start with acquiring all the desired labs before hand. Plus it would give us the needed information to help give you a better idea of what you're up against, and to guide you with the reactions you should expect from your physician.

That is the next step ... If there's any additional labs you can share, please post them. Also, we would like to know a little more about you; meaning stats, diet status, medications, pros and cons of your lifestyle, etc. Anything that can help us understand you a little better.

[xtitan1]

Welcome Veins. Sorry to hear you are going through this brother. My only comment is, "Yeah... what Vette said" lol

P.S. - It sounds like you have read the stickies but in case you haven't they are definitely a must-read!

[Veins Of Frost]

Thank you guys. I should have mentioned this before but I did read all the stickies beforehand. I try not to be a noob and post without reading the stickies first so I did make sure to do that. According to the sticky by kelkel, I believe it said ask the doc to use Dr.Crislers protocols. I mentioned this to my current doc over the phone and he didn't know what I was talking about.

You said an MRI would be necessary? Are we talking cancerous condition here? Nothing like that runs in my family; though my dad does look pretty young for his age (51, looks like hes in his 30s) so perhaps its a genetic thing.

In terms of the cost, this is a huge issue for me. My dad doesn't make as much as he used to and paying huge medical bills will be a difficult thing; I believe an MRI is a couple grand?

My lifestyle is pretty good actually. I currentlyat a calorie surplus for about 300 over maintainence. Maintainence for a guy my size calculated using the formulas.

I weigh all my food out and make sure to eat clean but sometimes I cheat and have some fast food if I need to get cals in. Protein intake is 130g per day and current bodyweight is about 124. I'm about 16% body fat according to my digital scale measured every morning.

I tend to put on almost fat exclusively while on a bulk despite how hard I train. I just finished my arms workout today and it looked something like this.

Preacher Curl 5 sets 6-8 reps
Skullcrusher 5 sets 8-10 reps
Concentration Curls 4 sets 10 reps
Rope Pulldowns 4 sets 6-8 reps
Closed Grip Benchpress 3 sets 6 reps
Bicep Cable bar curl 4 sets 8-10 reps

I'm usually in the gym for 2 to 2 1/2 hrs and I go hard. I don't mess around and socialize like most people. I've been doing this for nearly 1 year now and my progress is pretty bad for how much time and energy I've put into it. I never considered steroids before but I don't think they are wrong either. I discovered this forum due to frustration and searching for an answer to my problem.

Other than that, I usually eat oatmeal, brown rice, chicken fajita meat (boneless, skinless) in whole wheat wraps with cheese. Protein shakes, Creatine, Preworkout etc.

Other than that I'm usually pretty tired during the day even though I get around 9 hours of sleep every night. I'm usually up until 1 or 2 AM but during school I'm in bed by 12 or so.

I hope I can get to the bottom of this. If the doc won't help me, I was seriously thinking of cycling test enanthate for a few weeks to see how it goes.

[xtitan1]

Secondary Hypogonadism, where your testosterone is low because of a problem with the pituitary gland, as opposed to with the ability of the testes to make testosterone (primary hypogonadism), can sometimes be caused by benign tumors or scarring of the pituitary. An MRI is necessary to see those. By benign, I don't mean they aren't messing with your health, I mean they are not cancerous, as in they aren't going to spread to your lymph nodes and bone marrow and then your organs and kill you. Nonetheless, the tumor in some cases can push on your optic nerves causing visual disturbances or even blindness. Not to mention causing the main problem, of course, which is hypogonadism or perhaps even full blown hypopituitarism.

As far as your insurance goes, I don't have much experience arguing with insurance companies. I've been fortunate in that mine covers almost everything I do, so I don't have great advice here. From the labs you've already done, however, it's clear you have a hormone problem and you are below reference range. If they don't cover at least more blood work, that is BS in my opinion. But hopefully some of the other guys have some useful advice. But yes, an MRI is a couple of grand if you're paying out of pocket. I think my last shoulder MRI was $5k (with contrast dye), but that's the 'billing the insurance company' price. It seems they charge you a little less if you're paying out of pocket.

Again, you have a real, objective hormone problem. You seem to be trying to convince us that there is a problem based on your lifting gains compared to your work-out routine, but that's not necessary. We can see from your B/W that there is definitely an issue here. Although I will say that 2.5 hours is a long ****ing workout. I've read that after an hour to an hour and a half you're getting steep decreasing returns on time. But that's getting off scope of this forum.

Try to resolve this the legitimate way with the advice of a well-informed health professional. It will be cheaper in the long-run as well (assuming your insurance will cover cost of medication) than buying stuff illegally. You also need that blood work in order to dial in your levels, which again if you are able to get straightened out with the insurance company will be cheaper than paying out of pocket doing self-medication.

If the Doc won't help you, go get a better Doc (advice on that in the sticky 'finding a TRT physician')!

[Allaaro]

Don't be afraid of getting the MRI, since most times it comes back negative.....but the odd time, if they do catch something, that makes them pinpoint what is wrong and treat it....sucks that it costs money if insurance doesn't cover but guess you'll need to make the choice.

[Far from massive]

I am no expert in all this but my suggestion would be to make sure your endo (male or female makes no difference) is well respected. Then go to them and give them a shot, if you walk into a good endo's office and start trying to stuff a bunch of website info based around TRT down their throat before they have even run a consultation they are likely to be turned off or worse suspect that all you want is juice and that you may be manipulating your test scores to achieve those goals. In the latter case it could have catastrophic results as they might overlook the actual cause of your low test.

Even though it should not be the case doctors are human and often a pompous lot and like mechanics hate for you to walk in the door and tell them how to use their tools LOL. Feeding a shitty doctor good information off the web is not likely to make him a good doc...conversly doing the same to a potentially good doc may cause them to be much less effective due to the reasons stated above.

Anyhow just my 2 cents,

FFM

[BengalWoman]

Great advise from the guys!

[Veins Of Frost]

Secondary Hypogonadism, where your testosterone is low because of a problem with the pituitary gland, as opposed to with the ability of the testes to make testosterone (primary hypogonadism), can sometimes be caused by benign tumors or scarring of the pituitary. An MRI is necessary to see those. By benign, I don't mean they aren't messing with your health, I mean they are not cancerous, as in they aren't going to spread to your lymph nodes and bone marrow and then your organs and kill you. Nonetheless, the tumor in some cases can push on your optic nerves causing visual disturbances or even blindness. Not to mention causing the main problem, of course, which is hypogonadism or perhaps even full blown hypopituitarism.

As far as your insurance goes, I don't have much experience arguing with insurance companies. I've been fortunate in that mine covers almost everything I do, so I don't have great advice here. From the labs you've already done, however, it's clear you have a hormone problem and you are below reference range. If they don't cover at least more blood work, that is BS in my opinion. But hopefully some of the other guys have some useful advice. But yes, an MRI is a couple of grand if you're paying out of pocket. I think my last shoulder MRI was $5k (with contrast dye), but that's the 'billing the insurance company' price. It seems they charge you a little less if you're paying out of pocket.

Again, you have a real, objective hormone problem. You seem to be trying to convince us that there is a problem based on your lifting gains compared to your work-out routine, but that's not necessary. We can see from your B/W that there is definitely an issue here. Although I will say that 2.5 hours is a long ****ing workout. I've read that after an hour to an hour and a half you're getting steep decreasing returns on time. But that's getting off scope of this forum.

Try to resolve this the legitimate way with the advice of a well-informed health professional. It will be cheaper in the long-run as well (assuming your insurance will cover cost of medication) than buying stuff illegally. You also need that blood work in order to dial in your levels, which again if you are able to get straightened out with the insurance company will be cheaper than paying out of pocket doing self-medication.

If the Doc won't help you, go get a better Doc (advice on that in the sticky 'finding a TRT physician')!

Thank you. I will have to talk to my family about possibly helping me out since there is no way I can afford a couple grand at my age. This really is not fun :\

Don't be afraid of getting the MRI, since most times it comes back negative.....but the odd time, if they do catch something, that makes them pinpoint what is wrong and treat it....sucks that it costs money if insurance doesn't cover but guess you'll need to make the choice.

I will be going overseas next summer for a wedding. Over there it only costs 300 dollars for an MRI, perhaps that could be a viable option. Is there any other symptoms indicating that I could possibly have a pituitary problem?

I am no expert in all this but my suggestion would be to make sure your endo (male or female makes no difference) is well respected. Then go to them and give them a shot, if you walk into a good endo's office and start trying to stuff a bunch of website info based around TRT down their throat before they have even run a consultation they are likely to be turned off or worse suspect that all you want is juice and that you may be manipulating your test scores to achieve those goals. In the latter case it could have catastrophic results as they might overlook the actual cause of your low test.

Even though it should not be the case doctors are human and often a pompous lot and like mechanics hate for you to walk in the door and tell them how to use their tools LOL. Feeding a shitty doctor good information off the web is not likely to make him a good doc...conversly doing the same to a potentially good doc may cause them to be much less effective due to the reasons stated above.

Anyhow just my 2 cents,

FFM

Totally agreed. I'm very hesitant of going into a doc's office and telling them how to do their jobs. However, sometimes I feel that docs don't really know what they are talking about. They seem to have forgotten what they learned in medical school (probably due to lack of "outlier" cases like mine). Furthermore, it seems taboo to question a doctor. According to friends and family, "they finished 8 years of school and you read something on the internet, who to believe..." Well I know you guys are way more knowledgeable in this aspect than my doc, so lets go with it :]

[Veins Of Frost]

Alright, I got an appointment set up with an Endo. She said she mainly deals with diabetic patients but will see me. I might cancel the appointment because she said this over the phone.

Also, I forgot to mention this but I do have some developed secondary sexual characteristics such as pubic hair. I barely grow facial hair though.

Finally, I did not know this was significant but I did some research and apparently test levels are highest in the morning. My blood test was taken appx 5 PM... could this skew the results?

I'm not arguing with anyone here, just giving some extra info to see if it helps you all better. Thank you. -Veins

[TRTony]

I am in same boat. Except kaiser says 250 is average. So with my bloods at 326 i am out of luck.

[Times Roman]

I am in same boat. Except kaiser says 250 is average. So with my bloods at 326 i am out of luck.

I'm confused. Why would you want to start trt at 22 (your age) if your test levels are NOT below normal?

just to be clear, and in general, testosterone replacement therapy is really an old man's remedy for an old man's problem.

[TRTony]

326 for a 23 year old isnt low? Low energy. Comstant injuries. Hold on to fat. Hard time gaining muscle.

[oscar1990]

326 is ridiculously low for a 23 year old. That is ridiculous. Dude, you need to get a full hormone panel done. Check other forums to see what a full hormone panel consists of, it usually has:

TT, Free T, SHBG, LH, FSH, DHEA, OEST2, estrogen sensitive, T3, T4, TSH, I would also look into liver and kidney function plus adrenal glands. In addition to all this, you should check C-Reactive Protein (inflammation levels).

Im 22, and my TT is around 950's and my free t is 2.2% of my TT, my SHBG is pretty shitty but in the 35's to 40's.

You can have a something else going on in your body, also some good posts above.

Read dude read.

Goodluck

[oscar1990]

BTW- I just saw that your training for 2 and a half hours? DUDE you really need to re-evaluate your time in the gym. That can definitely be dampening your TESTOSTERONE LEVELS , you should know this by now. Training regimes should resemble 45minutes and 60 minutes in more advanced trainers.

YOU need to: STOP TRAINING SO LONG (45 MINS MAX), induce COMPOUND MOVEMENTS only: squats, dead-lifts, bench, clean, pull-ups, lunges etc.

This is just advice though

Goodluck

[TRTony]

I dont trin 2 hts. 1 hr a day. 30 if its cardio. I got test. Free test. Prolactin is 6. Lh is 2.1. Estrogen is 70. Forgot was tsh is.

[Times Roman]

326 is ridiculously low for a 23 year old. That is ridiculous. Dude, you need to get a full hormone panel done. Check other forums to see what a full hormone panel consists of, it usually has:

TT, Free T, SHBG, LH, FSH, DHEA, OEST2, estrogen sensitive, T3, T4, TSH, I would also look into liver and kidney function plus adrenal glands. In addition to all this, you should check C-Reactive Protein (inflammation levels).

Im 22, and my TT is around 950's and my free t is 2.2% of my TT, my SHBG is pretty shitty but in the 35's to 40's.

You can have a something else going on in your body, also some good posts above.

Read dude read.

Goodluck

it is on the lower end, but not "Ridiculously" low for a 23 year old. I agree it is not optimal. But I think that many here, when they see their test levels are on the lower end of the scale, the knee jerk reaction is TRT. This should be a last resort, NOT the first thing one thinks of. Explore all other options/remedies before starting on a life long rememdy he may not need.

[Hackamaniac]

it is on the lower end, but not "Ridiculously" low for a 23 year old. I agree it is not optimal. But I think that many here, when they see their test levels are on the lower end of the scale, the knee jerk reaction is TRT. This should be a last resort, NOT the first thing one thinks of. Explore all other options/remedies before starting on a life long rememdy he may not need.

Agree, I'm 32 and my test levels were alot lower.....I've been on trt for several months and still feel like shit... I think people are too quick to jump on trt imo...Me included, and it's just not a fix everything therapy.

[oscar1990]

Agree, I'm 32 and my test levels were alot lower.....I've been on trt for several months and still feel like shit... I think people are too quick to jump on trt imo...Me included, and it's just not a fix everything therapy.

Dude, your 10 years older than the kid. I agree that TRT is not a saviour to the problem amongst individuals with low-t, however if individuals are within a certain age and are of healthy nature with LOW T that definitely should be looked into assuming there is no genetic or hereditary factors stoking low-t, just my two cents.

[Hackamaniac]

Dude, your 10 years older than the kid. I agree that TRT is not a saviour to the problem amongst individuals with low-t, however if individuals are within a certain age and are of healthy nature with LOW T that definitely should be looked into assuming there is no genetic or hereditary factors stoking low-t, just my two cents.

My point was at 22, trt should be your last resort...After you check everything else and do lots of research... Why does he have low t though?? I would want to know that if i'm 22.

[Veins Of Frost]

My point was at 22, trt should be your last resort...After you check everything else and do lots of research... Why does he have low t though?? I would want to know that if i'm 22.

UPDATE: So I went to the endo today. I walked into the clinic and she asked me the usual questions, family history etc etc.

I showed her the test results and she said "oh that's not too bad?", there's some variation here and there." I told her that I was not happy with the results and it reflects on the low labido, low energy life I've been living. I didnt mention anything about the gym and she didn't ask me if I worked out (indicating that my muscle mass sucks).

She said at my age trt shouldn't be something I should consider and that it will probably make me sterile.

I feel very betrayed by all this. My luck so far has been absolute shit and I'm getting very depressed about this issue

Just tonight there was this girl at a party telling me to come to the bar with her and I just felt like going home instead. My friends were all like dude what's wrong with you?

[xtitan1]

Am I getting this right? You went to an endocrinologist with a total t of mid 200s and symptoms to match all at 22 years old and her response was "that's not too bad" and then sent you on your way? That's so bizarre I'm having trouble believing it.

[Veins Of Frost]

Am I getting this right? You went to an endocrinologist with a total t of mid 200s and symptoms to match all at 22 years old and her response was "that's not too bad" and then sent you on your way? That's so bizarre I'm having trouble believing it.

It was the same endo the doctor before referred me to. She seemed rather cautious to start trt on someone my age. She didn't just send me on my way but like tried to tell me how unsafe it is at my age. She recommended I get more rest and "eat a balanced diet" then get tested again. I was extremely upset at the time so I guess I didn't mention the above. But it's still nothing like I expected.

[xtitan1]

New doctor time.

[Veins Of Frost]

New doctor time.

Is there any you know of in dfw area that aren't so conservative?

[xtitan1]

Dfw?

[Veins Of Frost]

Dfw?

Yes sir. Please send PM if there is anything You can do. Thank you

[xtitan1]

Oh lol I was asking what dfw stood for but I figured it out, Dallas fort worth. I'm a northeasterner so I can't help ya there

[ZenFitness]

I live in DFW - just PM'd you my doc. I had no difficulty whatsoever getting TRT with him... in fact he wanted to do it sooner than I did!

[TheS1tch]

Yeah u have to make sure ur doc is cool first and is an endocrynologyst and part of hormone therapy network going to primary caare physician is a waste of $$

[Hackamaniac]

Yeah u have to make sure ur doc is cool first and is an endocrynologyst and part of hormone therapy network going to primary caare physician is a waste of $$

Not true, alot endos are clueless when it comes to trt.

[Veins Of Frost]

Not true, alot endos are clueless when it comes to trt.

I think this was the same problem I had with the endo I posted about in the thread.

[Hackamaniac]

I think this was the same problem I had with the endo I posted about in the thread.

You need to find someone that specializes in trt....Where are you located?? I'm sure someone on here could point you to a good doctor in your area.

[xtitan1]

You need to find someone that specializes in trt....Where are you located?? I'm sure someone on here could point you to a good doctor in your area.

He's in DFW which I now know means Dallas Fort Worth. I think zen fitness pm'd him a doc a couple of posts up.

[Hackamaniac]

He's in DFW which I now know means Dallas Fort Worth. I think zen fitness pm'd him a doc a couple of posts up.

My bad, thanks for straigthening me out bro Surely there's alot of trt specialist in that big of an area.

[Veins Of Frost]

I talked to zen (thanks man!) and wanted to know if anyone else has any docs to recommend. Trying to find best price since I just have a HSA plan which requires me to pay out of pocket

[Veins Of Frost]

A few days back I was looking at my chest and I noticed something after doing more research until my appointment. I'm not sure but maybe you all can chime in and give an opinion.


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First picture is current, the other ones with the white flash are when I was cutting. I eventually couldn't cut past a point because body held onto fat so I started a bulk.

Change X's to t's

Is this gynecomastia ? Notice how my nipple sticks out a bit. It forms sort of a cone shape which is kind of weird. I looked up pictures many times but they only seem to show severe cases and the mild cases are hard to rule out. I know it's difficult to tell from a picture but please do the best if possible.

This could possibly mean estrogen levels are high right? :\