Use of HCG or Clomid for a restart without the use of steroid/s - opinions please?

[oscar1990]

Hi there all,

In your own opinion based on your knowledge with or without your experiences with the use of HCG.

Could one please answer if it is to risky to use HCG or/and Clomid without using steroid/s for a restart?

I have used a multitude of sports supplements and am convinced that my nuts have shrunken a-little, if I was to administer HCG will it possibly reverse the 'shrinkage'? will it make it worse (cause atrophy)? will it not do anything? I know that HCG acts on LH and FSH, so im predicting it will have some level of stimulation, but will it be temporary or everlasting?


Supplements used: Jack3d, N.O Shot-gun, N.o Xplode 1.0 and 2.0, Black-label, 1.M.R

Never used anything anabolic, never ever cycled anything. Nuts seem a-little smaller though. I have discontinued supplement use for 3 good months.

Advice appreciated.

[oscar1990]

I think I should of posted this in the PCT forum, however I would still appreciate the sophisticated answers from this forum on this thread. Cheers.

[oscar1990]

anyone...

[oscarjones]

hCG is suppressive in a sense, however Dr.'s have been known to prescribe a course of injections for stimulation of the gonads in hopes of "jumpstarting" a natural production of hormones. As such, Clomid therapy would only show temporary improvement, and as soon as discontinuation of the drug, hormone levels are likely to balance back out again, which is a good thing I believe.

Likewise, it may not be a futile attempt, especially before crossing over to a complete replacement protocol.

[oscar1990]

how is it a supressive if it stimulates lh?

[oscarjones]

You really should see a Dr. You need to ask yourself "why are my nuts shrinking, what is the cause and diagnosis?" Hypogonadism? Etc?

Firstly, the use of hCG can cause a reduction in the concentration of membrane receptors in the testis, and secondly by administering hCG you're essentially creating an environment for FSH deficiency. All this can lead to sterility and shouldn't be taken lightly. http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/62/6/1184.short

Furthermore, hCG doesn't stimulate natural LH exactly, it acts as analog to help to stimulate gonado steroidal hormones by stimulating the interstitial cells of the testis to produce androgens. It's used in men who are hypogonadal to help regulate cell communication.

[oscar1990]

I dont think its hypogonadism, when I saw shrinkage I dont mean literally like a sucked up package my nuts are still there but they dont feel as heavy, round and full.

So you are saying HCG decreases/suppresses FSH? Does other types of exogenous forms of androgens surpress FSH?

I remember when I was taking pre workouts, my LH was 6 and my FSH was 1... a few months later I got my LH and FSH tested again just for a general check up and I was off pre-workouts or other supplements and my LH was 4.5 and FSH of 2. I am convinced that PWO have some types of androgens in them.. Please correct me if im overlooking something, e.g. caffeine or stimulants which may also surpress FSH and increase LH.

[oscarjones]

I dont think its hypogonadism, when I saw shrinkage I dont mean literally like a sucked up package my nuts are still there but they dont feel as heavy, round and full.

So you are saying HCG decreases/suppresses FSH? Does other types of exogenous forms of androgens surpress FSH?

Yes, and yes. Most exogenous androgens will suppress natural production to some degree.

I remember when I was taking pre workouts, my LH was 6 and my FSH was 1... a few months later I got my LH and FSH tested again just for a general check up and I was off pre-workouts or other supplements and my LH was 4.5 and FSH of 2. I am convinced that PWO have some types of androgens in them.. Please correct me if im overlooking something, e.g. caffeine or stimulants which may also surpress FSH and increase LH.

It's hard to speculate considering I have no idea what you were taking exactly, and it's hard to base labs with little to no difference without an extensive knowledge of your current and past overall medical history.

As far as stimulants go, I don't see how they could directly affect your endogenous male hormone production to a significant degree. Again, these are my thoughts and I wish I could help more. It wouldn't hurt to bring these questions up to your Dr. (if you are seeing them for your blood testing) and try to be more specific about what you were supplementing with. If it was a pro-hormone type of supplement, then that's a whole different ball-game.

[oscar1990]

I dont think I will see a doctor about it, as with my last blood-work

TT: 24
LH:4.5
FSH:2

He said it was all normal and that was it. Literally, full stop. I have never taken any pro-hormones, steroids etc. What do you think is an ideal FSH and LH level?

[oscarjones]

I dont think I will see a doctor about it, as with my last blood-work

TT: 24
LH:4.5
FSH:2

He said it was all normal and that was it. Literally, full stop. I have never taken any pro-hormones, steroids etc. What do you think is an ideal FSH and LH level?

Assuming the values are in mIU/ml then your FSH is on the lower end I believe. I think the range is typically 1.5 - 12.4 mIU/ml, however again I can't speculate because you'd probably be better off going to a different Dr., if you really cared, and getting some extensive blood testing done. Remember, there's a high propinquity in diagnosing issues related to hormone imbalance, not just within the adrenal androgen pathway, but through corroboration of a wide range of metabolic factors.

If you DID want to see a Dr. (which I would recommend, because I mean jeez they are way more scientifically inclined than anyone you'll meet on this board {probably}) you could pick and choose from the following testing. I would recommend all for true efficacy, but not all are financially capable.

• Total Testosterone
• Free Testosterone
• SHBG
• DHT
• Estradiol, sensitive
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Progesterone
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA
• IGF -1, IGFBP-3
• Pregnenolone
• Aldosterone
• Cortisol
• DHEA
• Free T4 (Thyroxine)
• Free T3 (Tri-iodothyronine)
• Reverse T3
• TSH
• Iron, Serum w/ TIBC (% of saturation,
iron serum, total iron binding capacity,
unsaturated iron binding capacity)
• Vitamin D

Good luck!

[oscar1990]

Ok, well I think I will look into it.

The range her is australia for it was

under 60 years <7

over 60 years >7