Converting From Test Cyp to Androgel 1.62% (takes one minute to read)

[rocksolidcypfan]

Evening Gents. This is my first post on this board. Def isn't the first time on the site, as I've come across it many times in my research. But I know there is a wealth of information and anecdotal experience from you all and I'm hoping you can shed some light on my current situation.

Diagnosed with low T by my nurse practitioner of all people. Though she is a NP, she is *definitely* closer to the "naturopathic" side of the spectrum. We had tried antidepressants, etc for the usual symptoms (low motivation, poor concentration, low work tolerance, inability to gain or maintain muscle mass despite *religious* workout schedule and decent diet with protein supplementation). So when it came around to testing for T levels and they came back at mid 200's total, and available in the bottom 5% range (can't remember exact number but it was almost off the reference range) it was like Lewis and Clark reaching the Pacific. That was 18 months ago.

I was extremely lucky to have a provider that wanted to work with me. I have a young daughter, and so I went to her with all my T research pushing for injection right off the bat to avoid exposure to my daughter (also knowing injection to be a solid route of administration). She agreed, and very soon the initial prescription for 50mg/weekly IM Test Cyp was changed to 100mg/weekly, then after a month, 120mg/weekly. To be on the safe side and cover herself, she referred me to an Endo just to go over the blood work and the protocol we came up with. I could hardly communicate with the guy, so I ended up telling her I trusted her, wanted to work with her, and that we'd learn what worked together, over time.

One of the best things I could've done for myself. The overall result has been me being able to push myself harder at work, have more energy at home, pursue hobbies that I considered for *many years* but never had the guts to execute. There was a "honeymoon" phase of a few months, where the effects were most pronounced, before tapering to a point where injection day was really the same as any other.

The last six months or so I've noticed that a lot of the side effects I experienced initially (facial flushing - my face was red all the time. People asked me constantly where I'd been that weekend thinking I had laid out in the sun at the beach or something, night sweats, feeling of increased blood pressure) have been nonexistent. I haven't gotten labs for probably six or eight months. The last time I checked T was in the 800-900 range, which my doc and me were fine with (Estradiol was low).

The problem is this: While the sides have gone away, so have a lot of the positive mental effects. I'm still doing well at the gym, with the testosterone continuing to remodel my physique, which must have been going south for a long time before getting on T. It just seems I'm reaching a plateau, and I question the effectiveness of my dose and my protocol in general.

Consequently, I talked my doc into giving me a scrip for Androgel 1.62. She prescribed two pumps per day, which I know damn well won't be enough to match the 120mg weekly Test Cyp in my quadriceps (vastus lateralis). So, three days ago I decided to try and integrate the 1.62 into my regimen. I've been doing one pump each day in the am, the first day of which I noticed a *definite* increase in energy, drive, and libido. Today was my shot day, but instead of .30mg of Test Cyp, I did only .20mg (I do two shots weekly to give the most even levels possible).

1. Have any of you ever successfully switched from shots to Androgel 1.62 or used *both* effectively for an extended period? I know people usually go from the gel to shots. But I just wonder if the daily administration of gel, combined with increased DHT levels, might possibly provide an equivalent or possibly even better subjective benefit, even if the actual total T level is possibly 10%-15% lower than with injection

2. The next time I get blood drawn, I want a *true hormonal picture* not just Test, cholesterol, and Estradiol. I've seen some people post labs that have a whole host of measurements. That's what I want. Can someone tell me specifically which tests I should get, or shoot me a link to what they are?

I know this was a long post. But I also know there are a lot of you out there who are just like me. Young, motivated, hitting the gym, moving forward, trying to do their best and survive in this competitive world we live in. Any responses are well appreciated.

[AXx]

There is a stickie at the top titled "Finding a TRT doc. There is a complete panel of bloodwork there.

Total test
Free and weekly bound
Estradiol
DHT
CBC
CMP
Thyroid panel
LH
FSH
IGF-1
Vitamin D

May have missed some. Check the sticky out and I'm glad you feel better

[Ricci82]

I have never been prescribed test cyp. But i have had the 1.62 gel for 9 days now and i feel pretty good. 2 pumps is equal to about 41 MG's /day. Thats about 250 MG's a week. I would guess and say about 150 MG's actually gets absorbed throughout the week. Hope it works out for you.

[edmundo22]

If your estradiol is too low forget about receiving any benifets from increased test levels get it where it needs to be.

[kelkel]

It's normal to have the "rush" or euphoric feeling when you first start testosterone therapy. Then it will subside and normalize. If you're looking for that same initial feeling forget it, your body adapts. There is a sticky by GD on the topic of what to expect from T therapy so take a minute and read up. Read all the stickies for that matter. Good stuff there.

So, your doc actually prescribed you agel along with cyp? Did I read that correctly? Impressive and surprising at the same time. Never heard of a doc (NP) doing that. Not really sure what your looking to get out of this protocol. Both are testosterones just with different delivery systems. Yes, gels are known to raise DHT levels (did with me) and there's nothing wrong with DHT. There really is no "perfect" level of DHT either. It's how you feel. All testosterones turn to DHT everywhere in the body except skeletel muscle via the 5-AR enzyme. The little bit that makes it into muscle is basically killed off by another enzyme. DHT is also a natural estrogen antagonist on three different levels. So, if you're managing your E2 it may effect that also. Further, I have searched for studies on combining the two T's to no avail.

Another interesting point with the gel is that if you apply moisturizer over top of the gel, an hour or so after gel application that is, you can increase the absorption by app 14-17% if I recall correctly. Read the insert carefully (who does? well, me. That bored) it's right on it.

Great first post BTW. Welcome to the forum. Stick around, contribute and learn! Pay it forward!

[rocksolidcypfan]

It's normal to have the "rush" or euphoric feeling when you first start testosterone therapy. Then it will subside and normalize. If you're looking for that same initial feeling forget it, your body adapts. There is a sticky by GD on the topic of what to expect from T therapy so take a minute and read up. Read all the stickies for that matter. Good stuff there.

So, your doc actually prescribed you agel along with cyp? Did I read that correctly? Impressive and surprising at the same time. Never heard of a doc (NP) doing that. Not really sure what your looking to get out of this protocol. Both are testosterones just with different delivery systems. Yes, gels are known to raise DHT levels (did with me) and there's nothing wrong with DHT. There really is no "perfect" level of DHT either. It's how you feel. All testosterones turn to DHT everywhere in the body except skeletel muscle via the 5-AR enzyme. The little bit that makes it into muscle is basically killed off by another enzyme. DHT is also a natural estrogen antagonist on three different levels. So, if you're managing your E2 it may effect that also. Further, I have searched for studies on combining the two T's to no avail.

Another interesting point with the gel is that if you apply moisturizer over top of the gel, an hour or so after gel application that is, you can increase the absorption by app 14-17% if I recall correctly. Read the insert carefully (who does? well, me. That bored) it's right on it.

Great first post BTW. Welcome to the forum. Stick around, contribute and learn! Pay it forward!

Great responses guys. Just a little clarification. She isn't prescribing both concurrently. Though I have some of my previous Test Cyp prescription, and it seemed like a bad idea to just switch from injection to gel one day to the next- I wanted to see what the gel was like without fully going off my injections. My fear is that my T level will crash and I will be left dead dog tired. My concerns about DHT stem from everything i've heard regarding DHT and prostate enlargement/male pattern baldness. I currently have neither and want to keep it that way. I'm not really looking to get the initial euphoria back either. I realize that was just my body jumping for joy at finally having what was missing. I'm just wanting my energy to stay high, and my sex drive to be solid- both of which have seemed to wane in recent months. I thought, maybe pulsatile administration is just as important as keeping T levels high. Then I read online reports of so many guys wanting to go from gels to injections and thought, well hell...

Awesome tip on the moisturizer. I need to read that complete novel they include with the gel.

One other question... I workout in the afternoons quite a bit. If I apply the gel in the morning, and I work out at noon or 1pm, am I wasting most of that application? I couldn't find anything on the length of time it takes to absorb.

Finally, I heard of a study with AIDS patients that compared gel to injections, and found gel to provide a higher degree of "well being". I didn't read the entire study though...and I'm curious if those conclusions had something to do with large single doses and injection frequency of once a month or longer. With as many peaks and valleys as you'd have from that extended dosing schedule, it's no wonder the patients would prefer the gel, even if their T level was relatively low. Any comments or knowledge of this study?

[rocksolidcypfan]

Any other suggestions?

[Times Roman]

mate

the reason no one goes from shots to gel is primarily three (3) fold:

1) messy. if kids or women come in contact, they can experience undesireable sides
2) expensive. gel is expensive, and not very effective compared to injections
3) hassle. you have to mess with gel every day. with injections, once a week, preferably at home.

[kelkel]

^^^What TR said. Also, unless you have an existing prostrate issue or some metabolic imbalance I really wouldn't worry about DHT that much.
When it comes to MPB that deals with the 5 AR enzyme which is dominant in the scalp. But, enzyme or not you are either prone to hair loss or your not.

I'd be interested to know how you feel if you add small amounts of gel to your existing protocol. The caveat is that more is not always better in TRT.