Gyno question about treatment when E2 is 20. Letro? BW re-Posted

[harley121]

I'm 47, 174lbs, 5'6", 16% bf, been working out on an off for 20+ years, on TRT for about 8 mo. finally dialed in at 100mg test. c/ week. I posted my bloodwork here a few weeks ago and got some great help as I was experiencing protruding / sensitive nipples. BW is re- posted. Test. level was a bit high for my Dr. at 1121 and the free test. was "above range", etc. BUT sensitive E2 test showed 20 which is very good.
I went to Dr. yesterday requesting progesterone, prolaction, and all the other BW tests that I was pointed to here and he wants to wait about a month to do these till my "levels to settle out" as we just dropped from 200mg/ wk to 100/ week due to these earlier results.
Now, after about 6 weeks of the nipple thing the left one is sore, a little swollen and has a lump about the size of a button under it- its not too hard but def. there and sore to touch. I have some Letro coming by the weekend and really don't want to wait till I grow a girl boob on one side and have and irreversable condition to start treatment. So, I was going to self medicate w/ the Letro but wanted to double check w/ the Vets/ Pro's. The letro is going to take my already low Estridol levels to nothing Im sure, so if this was your boob and Dr. what would you do?

[Sworder]

Take 0.5mg letro EOD, ease off the letrozole dosage if you are feeling like estrogen is crushed, you want to manage estrogen, not start an estrogen ablation therapy. Get some tamoxifen(this will reduce the lump, hopefully) and run it 40mg/20mg/20mg/20mg/20mg(per day/week).

[harley121]

Take 0.5mg letro EOD and get some tamoxifen 40mg/20mg/20mg/20mg/20mg(per day/week).

Sounds good and less aggressive than the Gyno article I read on the stickys, wondering what your thoughts are on your recommendation in comparison to the ramping up to 2.5mg ED staying there then ramping down as described in the sticky article on it? I would love to minimize the sides and make this go away.

[Sworder]

Ramping up to 2.5mg doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would you start at a low dose when your estrogen is high? Wouldn't it make more sense to start at 2.5mg and once you notice e2 getting too low ramping off? I don't know what the reasoning is behind that protocol, as logic isn't.

It is an aggressive method, just not detrimental to your health and well-being.

If you want to make sure estrogen is near rock bottom start high(2.5mg) and then ease off very quickly(to 0.5mg eod) when you feel like death, joints hurt, no libido and the other great things that come with 0 estrogen.

[ShredMN]

Kind of was wondering the same thing about ramping up to 2.5mg? The only thing I could think of was assessing tolerance, but still, anyone that's using letro for their nipples wants to destroy their estrogen (at least I do since aromasin didn't do it). Wondering if you have a preference for when to take the letro, or does it not make any difference.

[Sworder]

If taking high dose 2.5mg I do 1.25mg in the morning and the rest at night. You will probably wake up a lot having to pee. Sleeping while letro is going to town on estrogen isn't pleasant. Neither being awake. I don't like having high estrogen but I get it very easily. Even if I don't bring it down to 0. Bringing it down quickly is gruesome, which is why I recommended 0.5mg EOD. To control estrogen from further aggravating gyno. It doesn't have to be 0 for the reversal to work.

[ShredMN]

I take one medication for depression at night that makes me sleep like a baby. Hopefully it will allow me to sleep through the need to pee while on letro.

[jimmyinkedup]

I subscribe to the same line of thought. Use an ai to MANAGE e2 and a serm to treat gyno is the basic premise im my case. Tamioxifen or even better yet raloxifene, however tamox has plenty of clinical data to support its effectiveness. E2 p;lays a role in too many things for it to be prudent to crush it long term when the option of blocking the recptor in brest tissue exsists while allowing managed levels of e2 to perorm its essential functions.

[ShredMN]

I should say I have no nipple sensitivity, itchiness, or a hard lump behind it (my bf% is below 10% so it's not fat). I don't think nolva is the solution for my situtation, as I've tried it for a long time without progress.

[Sworder]

If you have tried nolva for "a long time", it is probably beyond the stage of reversal. You can reverse a "flare up" as I call them, but not once it is settled. A surgeon's blade could persuade the gyno tissue to leave..

[ShredMN]

I have no reason to believe it's settled as it's not fibrous at all. Also no surgeon will touch me because it's hardly noticeable at all (I've already seen a couple before I heard about chemical treatment). I was on nolva for about two months, I know it can take a lot longer than that to reverse it on nolva, but I'm impatient and can handle the side effects of letro, so I'm taking that route. Whether it's a good idea or not to go the letro route is debatable, but I've already started and don't plan on stopping for a couple of weeks. I should note that is has been getting better (I believe aromasin is to thank for that) but once again, I'm impatient and willing to withstand side effects.

[jimmyinkedup]

I think most clinical studies for reversal using tamox are 6 months .....

[MickeyKnox]

Hey Shred, why dont you start your own thread so as not to derail or side bar this one. Harley came in here specifically looking fore help and your stories are not helping.

Thanks for understanding.

[MickeyKnox]

Ramping up to 2.5mg doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would you start at a low dose when your estrogen is high? Wouldn't it make more sense to start at 2.5mg and once you notice e2 getting too low ramping off? I don't know what the reasoning is behind that protocol, as logic isn't.

It is an aggressive method, just not detrimental to your health and well-being.

If you want to make sure estrogen is near rock bottom start high(2.5mg) and then ease off very quickly(to 0.5mg eod) when you feel like death, joints hurt, no libido and the other great things that come with 0 estrogen.

Sworder, did you notice that Harleys e2 was at 20? Just thinking aloud and wondering if he was to begin at 2.5 that this may lower him to a potentially uncomfortable level. Again just wondering..

[ShredMN]

Yeah, sorry Knox. Didn't mean to highjack the thread haha.

[Sworder]

Sworder, did you notice that Harleys e2 was at 20? Just thinking aloud and wondering if he was to begin at 2.5 that this may lower him to a potentially uncomfortable level. Again just wondering..

Yes, running it at 2.5mg will have it down close to 0 pretty quickly. Which is why I recommend 0.5mg EOD.

Starting at 2.5mg then switching to 0.5mg is he wants "near rock bottom" estrogen. Which I personally don't find too joyful.

[MickeyKnox]

Yeah, sorry Knox. Didn't mean to highjack the thread haha.

No worries mate.

[MickeyKnox]

Ramping up to 2.5mg doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would you start at a low dose when your estrogen is high? Wouldn't it make more sense to start at 2.5mg and once you notice e2 getting too low ramping off? I don't know what the reasoning is behind that protocol, as logic isn't.

It is an aggressive method, just not detrimental to your health and well-being.

If you want to make sure estrogen is near rock bottom start high(2.5mg) and then ease off very quickly(to 0.5mg eod) when you feel like death, joints hurt, no libido and the other great things that come with 0 estrogen.

Sorry i must have misunderstood this comment. All good.

[kelkel]

Shred, if you haven't crashed your E before don't be to quick to say you can handle the sides. They really suck! Good advice above. Good luck with it!

[harley121]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread....#.UJHWxG-_DbM

This was the article I was referring to w/ the ramping up, etc.
So Sworder, I do the Letro EOD and the Tamof. every day. How long at both those levels? till the symptoms go away?

[ShredMN]

Stick with one or the other. Tamox reduces the effectiveness of letro.

[Sworder]

This was the article I was referring to w/ the ramping up, etc.
So Sworder, I do the Letro EOD and the Tamof. every day. How long at both those levels? till the symptoms go away?

Yes, I know it was C Bino's thread from 2006 that you were referring to. Yes, do the letro eod @ 0.5mg, you may want to change this to 0.25mg EOD if you notice symptoms of low estrogen. The thing is, I don't know how your estrogen is going to be affected with 100% certainty, so you can't listen to me without your own subjective opinion. Some guys are given standard advice on how much AI to run during a cycle and then come back and complain they got gyno. You have to monitor it yourself. I can give you a start-off point but you have to rely on yourself to make changes when necessary. Run the SERM two weeks after the gyno has disappeared.

Estrogen is something you have to balance and figure out by yourself via blood-work, or how you feel. It is completely individual, as is the development of gyno. You are getting it at 20, some guys can be at 50 and not get any gyno symptoms.

Depending on your body-fat % it may not be noticeable, I am pretty lean and I can tell by how much "water retention" I have under my skin in the midsection. That is the easiest way for me. I notice I get really low on estrogen when I feel my joints getting "rough" or I look very lean.

[harley121]

So, I guess the real question is that if someone is developing slight gyno symptoms but has low E from blood work 2 weeks ago, is the treatment the same as someone that has high E? I am assuming that normally when someone develops gyno their E levels are high. My test/ bw was by labcorp and showed low, but other important things werent checked like progesterone, etc.

[harley121]

Yes, I know it was C Bino's thread from 2006 that you were referring to. Yes, do the letro eod @ 0.5mg, you may want to change this to 0.25mg EOD if you notice symptoms of low estrogen. The thing is, I don't know how your estrogen is going to be affected with 100% certainty, so you can't listen to me without your own subjective opinion. Some guys are given standard advice on how much AI to run during a cycle and then come back and complain they got gyno. You have to monitor it yourself. I can give you a start-off point but you have to rely on yourself to make changes when necessary. Run the SERM two weeks after the gyno has disappeared.

Estrogen is something you have to balance and figure out by yourself via blood-work, or how you feel. It is completely individual, as is the development of gyno. You are getting it at 20, some guys can be at 50 and not get any gyno symptoms.

Depending on your body-fat % it may not be noticeable, I am pretty lean and I can tell by how much "water retention" I have under my skin in the midsection. That is the easiest way for me. I notice I get really low on estrogen when I feel my joints getting "rough" or I look very lean.

Ok, thanks, that makes sense.

[harley121]

Take 0.5mg letro EOD, ease off the letrozole dosage if you are feeling like estrogen is crushed, you want to manage estrogen, not start an estrogen ablation therapy. Get some tamoxifen(this will reduce the lump, hopefully) and run it 40mg/20mg/20mg/20mg/20mg(per day/week).

Just so I get this doseage right: run the tamoxifen at Week1: 40mg/ day Week 2: 20mg/ day, etc.. till its gone then 2 weeks after at 20mg/ day but stay on the Letro the whole time?
All this is while Im still doing TRT at 100 mg/ week of Test Cyp.

[ShredMN]

Keep us updated on your status, Harley.

[harley121]

I will, I have both items coming in. Should be here by the weekend. Wow, what an education. I just wanted my pee pee to work as good as it used to, have more energy and not be like the guy on the Low T commercial- now I gotta get rid of a girl boob- WTF

[Sworder]

Just so I get this, run the tamoxifen at Week1: 40mg/ day Week 2: 20mg/ day, etc.. till its gone then 2 weeks after at 20mg/ day but say on the Letro the whole time?
All this is while Im still doing TRT at 100 mg/ week of Test Cyp.

I don't see it being needed for the whole duration. Try letro 0.5mg EOD for 10 days, after that you may be fine without the use of an AI. Drop the letro if it's too much or switch to 0.25mg EOD.

[harley121]

Here's a good question, how do you get a .5mg or .25mg dosed correctly when the liquid (l-dex) is 2.5mg/ mg? That just a tiny drop

[MickeyKnox]

Here's a good question, how do you get a .5mg or .25mg dosed correctly when the liquid (l-dex) is 2.5mg/ mg? That just a tiny drop

Use a 1ml dropper from the pharmacy for liquid AI's and SERMS.

[harley121]

Thanks Mickey, you guys have been super helpful. Ill pick one up b4 my liquids get here

[harley121]

Ok, got my stuff, just to check- I take the Letro and Tamox together for the 1st 10 days?

[harley121]

Ok, just dosed- Question, is the recommended way to feed this to your "lab rat" to squirt it under their tongue and wash down w/ water? They said the taste is still in their mouth and is nasty

[jimmyinkedup]

Just squirt it in the back of your throat and drink something right away.

[harley121]

Tomorrow that will be the plan. I still taste battery acid in my mouth.