Is high T really "Safer" long term?

**CraigWatts** · 02-01-2013, 10:27 PM

Disclaimer: The content of this post is purely based on information I have read. No offense is intended to any group.

I was reading about longevity and have many times over the years heard that african american men have shorter lifespans in general.

I was just brainstorming as to the causes and realized that they tend to have higher rates of heart disease and prostate cancer. Earlier in life.

I believe AA men tend to have higher T on average than most other races. If this generalization is wrong I apologize.

Yet they struggle with the very diseases that conservative doctors use as the very reason why they're reluctant to prescribe Testosterone .

If a certain population has known higher T levels, and higher incidence of prostate cancer and heart disease, couldn't one come to a certain conclusion about Testosterone?

Higher T levels may be great for sex drive, great sex, muscle tone, bigger muscles, bigger penis, etc .... but is it a situation of "Live fast die young" ?

Ideally I would like to get the stats (if there are any) on what the average T level is in the african american population. Then maybe use that number as the danger zone for Testosterone supplementation. Supplement only up to a point that is below that level. Then maybe I'd feel better about T supplementation long term in 30's 40's 50's 60's ....

Thoughts?

**MickeyKnox** · 02-01-2013, 10:35 PM

Id be interested to see those numbers as well. Are you a researcher/doc Craig?

**Bonaparte** · 02-01-2013, 10:49 PM

Of course high test levels increase the risk of heart disease.
But you can't overlook the cultural diet differences, either.

**jseek** · 02-01-2013, 10:59 PM

Highest t levels are probably when makes are 18-25 and I don't hear of advanced heart disease, Alzheimer's, pvd, ddd, etc in kids that age

But as we age, and t declines, and other metabolic issues develop, fatty deposits rise, estrogen levels rise, and so do the ahd, pvd, cad, other autoimmune type issues

So at what point can a researcher say high t caused the problems when in most males problems start at low t

**DanMan250** · 02-02-2013, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

Disclaimer: The content of this post is purely based on my medical knowledge. No offense is intended to any group.

I was reading about longevity and have many times over the years heard that african american men have shorter lifespans.

Just brainstorming as to the causes. The reasons were a higher risk of heart disease. A higher risk of prostate cancer. Earlier in life.

Its a known fact that on the average, african american men have significantly higher testosterone levels than other races.

Yet they struggle with the very diseases that conservative doctors use as the very reason why they're reluctant to prescribe Testosterone .

If a certain population has known higher T levels, and higher incidence of prostate cancer and heart disease, couldn't one come to a certain conclusion about Testosterone?

Higher T levels may be great for sex drive, great sex, muscle tone, bigger muscles, bigger penis, etc .... but is it a situation of "Live fast die young" ?

Ideally I would like to get the stats (if there are any) on what the average T level is in the african american population. Then maybe use that number as the danger zone for Testosterone supplementation. Supplement only up to a point that is below that level. Then maybe I'd feel better about T supplementation long term in 30's 40's 50's 60's ....

Thoughts?

It is low testosterone that shortens life span and increases the risk of cardiovascular disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer & osteoporosis not high normal testosterone levels. It must be made clear that no one should have high (above ref range) T levels, but high normal is very healthy and increases life span.
I have also heard that men of West African decent e.g. African American men on average, have higher T levels than other races, but I don't know if they have significantly higher T levels. Do you have any studies you can cite to support this claim?
Btw another fallacy you state above, higher T levels do not necessarily increase sex drive and do not make the penis bigger. I have also heard that men of West African decent on average have a longer penis than men of other races. Whether or not this is true, I have no idea, nor do I care, but if it is true, it is not because they have higher T levels.

**DanMan250** · 02-02-2013, 12:58 AM

Have a read of this http://health.usnews.com/usnews/heal...mens-lives.htm

**Edwin23q** · 02-02-2013, 01:56 AM

As hard as it may seem to believe, African American males or just African males have an average penis size of 6.5 inches. So the fact that they have longer penis's is just a myth.

The way to look at it is also that Japanese adults have the highest smoking (cigarette) rate in the world, but also have the lowest rate of any type of cancer in the world.

What's the point I'm trying to make? In my opinion it's related to the genes of certain races but also the diet of certain cultures.
My 2c worth.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

**CraigWatts** · 02-02-2013, 08:37 PM

It is low testosterone that shortens life span

I understand that this is the opinion of people here. So I was posting some thoughts that might challenge that theory.

Highest t levels are probably when makes are 18-25 and I don't hear of advanced heart disease, Alzheimer's, pvd, ddd, etc in kids that age

The difference here is that its a short duration. I am referring to men who have high testosterone for the duration of their lifetime, and have documented shorter lifespans.

I agree diet is significantly different in that culture. And I agree it would play a significant role. Probalby in heart disease. Not sure about Prostate cancer, though I did hear that 1 soda a day doubles your risk of prostate cancer down the road.

So maybe its all diet, but are we willing to take that risk? I am still weighing my options at age 38 whether i want to get on T or just leave things alone until later. I assume its this very concern that makes doctors afraid to prescribe T.

**jseek** · 02-02-2013, 09:20 PM

What sources, research wise or otherwise that objectively follows a certain or general group of persons from puberty to old age measuring all the vital labs that we ask our trt docs to measure, ...what sources of this do u have?.

With that, in retrospect, we could accurately state things and squash biases in the gym, street or world.

But I've never seen or heard of such a 50 yr study that you are proposing...from say 13 yo to 60-70 yr olds...

Maybe in the future with scifi-esk nano probes in our system and quick easy real time labs could something like that be done

But to setup a good double blind study where only one variable changes by research group, or a massive lab research and follow up/retro review group....would b tough.

The changing variables of hormone levels, general labs/genetics/beliefs/foods/exercise or work habits/recreational habits/anatomical changes/lean mass/body fat/sleep hours...the list gets crazy looking at it...doesn't allow for the kind if research conclusions u seek.

And dont try getting into a jimmy the Greek like discussion about how a certain group was an abnormal selection of the fittest...that would grind this discussion to a halt rapidly.

So why don't drs prescribe wellness meds like test...vs pharmaceuticals? When most studies say trt is safe? Possibly old school of thought "it's never been done so I'm not going to start that?", or not a lot of marketing by pharmaceutical companies in the direction of hormones (no profit) vs m*ds (lots of $$), or education in general of docs being on reactive pharmaceuticals and surgery with cursory discussion of anabolic steroids ?

I'm not sure if high test beliefs long term in a certain or several genetic groups is an accurate reason for docs not prescribing trt...

Anyway...kindly post the research you have so we can all learn please...

And thanks for the thought provoking thread!

**DanMan250** · 02-02-2013, 10:39 PM

CraigWatts, you are a dead set, fully fledged idiot!

**lovbyts** · 02-02-2013, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

I understand that this is the opinion of people here. So I was posting some thoughts that might challenge that theory.

The difference here is that its a short duration. I am referring to men who have high testosterone for the duration of their lifetime, and have documented shorter lifespans.

I agree diet is significantly different in that culture. And I agree it would play a significant role. Probalby in heart disease. Not sure about Prostate cancer, though I did hear that 1 soda a day doubles your risk of prostate cancer down the road.

So maybe its all diet, but are we willing to take that risk? I am still weighing my options at age 38 whether i want to get on T or just leave things alone until later. I assume its this very concern that makes doctors afraid to prescribe T.

What option? If there is an option/choose then the answer is obvious, NO you dont get on TRT. It should not be looked at as an choose or option unless it's your last choose. It's not something I or most anyone here would choose if we had another option or new of one at the time before starting.

I started at 45. I'm 50 now and if I could have waited until I was 55 or 60 I would have without a doubt.

**Tron3219** · 02-02-2013, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

I understand that this is the opinion of people here. So I was posting some thoughts that might challenge that theory.

The difference here is that its a short duration. I am referring to men who have high testosterone for the duration of their lifetime, and have documented shorter lifespans.

I agree diet is significantly different in that culture. And I agree it would play a significant role. Probalby in heart disease. Not sure about Prostate cancer, though I did hear that 1 soda a day doubles your risk of prostate cancer down the road.

So maybe its all diet, but are we willing to take that risk? I am still weighing my options at age 38 whether i want to get on T or just leave things alone until later. I assume its this very concern that makes doctors afraid to prescribe T.

Is sickle cell t related too?

-TroN-

**BallSak** · 02-02-2013, 11:47 PM

My thoughts are that starting this thread is silly and based completely on speculation. Let's not waste our time on speculation.

High test is bad. Low test is bad. That's what the studies say.

**jseek** · 02-03-2013, 07:52 AM

After many long answers here, easiest thing to say is this to Craig watts

Craig watts survived till mid 30's with at first normal higher than now t, and now possibly declining t as is normal for your age.
Trt is simply maintaining a reasonable level of t to support normal levels of function, and maintain homeostasis in a human body. And if your t is currently in normal range then you don't really qualify for trt anyways.

Trt is "not" to place a person on a high level of t that you are worried about.

So read the threads here from people who are experiencing life changing benefits from trt and stop worrying about high t. Dr crisler has helped many many people who benefited from trt. And when or if the time comes for you to need trt as your normal t slips below normal range and you need to supplement to return to your younger day levels...you'll be safe.

**boxingfan30** · 02-03-2013, 09:39 AM

My own opinion based soley on being around people of different cultures (my Wife is Korean, good friend is Filipino) is that each culture has it's own differences. Black people seem to have more fun, they laugh more, dance more when they're out (I work at a bar sometimes), but they also seem to be more emotional vs. other cultures... asians, whites, etc. That in itself would raise blood pressure. This is all just observation and just from my own experiences of course.

I do know, as most of you here i'm sure have seen, when you fill out the paperwork at a Doctors office it usually asks something about high blood pressure and then says "if not African American". There is pretty much always a genetic factor when one eats correctly, exercises, etc. but still has high blood pressure. Then you have other people with genetics such as myself where my blood pressure is almost always under 110 and under 70. Last time was 106/64. Is it the genetics? Or that I take 6-8 grams of Fish oil a day, plus many other supplements and I try to keep my diet very clean? My sister's (who doesn't eat clean) gets so low she HAS to eat more salt which she craves... my Father had low blood pressure all of his life, while my Mother has to take blood pressure meds... but her diet is poor.

Genetics and diet are the largest causes for these issues ... IMO of course.

**boxingfan30** · 02-03-2013, 09:58 AM

by the way, if your T is high enough that it's causing those problems and you still have a clean diet then you are either bulking and on a cycle that would get off of after 10-12 weeks anyway, or if it's a TRT dose, you might think about adjusting it to find a happy medium.