HRT Expert Dr. Mark Gordon on why arimidex may not be needed and how he avoids it

**HRTstudent** · 10-28-2012, 07:01 PM

As you may know, I feel that some of our best information comes from doctors on the front lines treating patients and contributing to the body of knowledge that is HRT. Dr Mark Gordon is one of these doctors, and here are some really interesting words I came across while googling. I thought it was important that I share this with everyone.

From http://www.antiagingspace.com/aa-wik...question_id=26 circa 2011

First off why would anyone need an estrogen blocker? Not rhetorical but, I can't hear your answer. So here is my take on this whole issue of testosterone replacement . If you replace or supplement the body with the amount of testosterone that it makes you don't run into needing estrogen blockers EBs. A number of studies from as far back as 1963 (in my collection) show that healthy solid males between the age of 25-35 produce from 4.1-10mg of T a day. That is about 60mg a week (median). So why would you need more?

I believe that the medical world has relied on the bodybuilding world for directions in how to abuse our bodies with super physiological doses of T. In 15 years with over 10,000 patient cycles (3 months) I've never used EBs to recover from E2 overload in a male. Also, Zinc blocks conversion of T to E2 by competitive inhibition of magnesium at the estradiol synthetase enzyme that we call Aromatase. So if you perform comprehensive assessments of your patients before starting hormones then add the Zn.

More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg of T a week. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week. A rare 100mg a week. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space.

He also mentions Zinc as an aromatase inhibitor as well:

As Ryan at Access has known for almost 3 years I completed an 8 year Zinc Citrate study and the results supported all the information that was available in the scientific literature but never fully clinically tested. I did the testing with hundreds of Males. I have started to write Medical Tidbits for AAS and ACCESS. The inaugural one is on Reverse T3. Lots that needs to be checked before just giving Cytomel or T3 as treatment. Then the subsequent one will be on Estrone and DHEA and 7-Keto-DHEA. I finished a 2 year clinical study on that one too. It is just a matter of going back to some of the foundational aspects of Endocrinology. All these nuances will be part of the coming 2 day workshop called - The LIE, The Laboratory of Interventional Endocrinology. It is an expansion of the course I gave on The Clinical Application of Interventional Endocrinology. The information that will be shared can make a hugh difference in physicians scratching the surface and digging deep into the problem.
All the best.
Mark

A previous poster talks about Dr Gordon's protocol for Zinc:

"Dr. Mark Gordon he says to lower your testosterone dosage to physiologic levels and take 60mg of Zinc citrate 3x/day. Arimidex is Not good for your body."

I do not know where he specifically has written about his take on Copper when you supplement with such large doses of Zinc. This would, I imagine, be very important to consider and I imagine he definitely supplements with added copper.

**vetvso** · 10-28-2012, 07:46 PM

That is very intersting since I started my Zinc suppliments last thursday, and all of a sudden my energy and power in the gym increased in a major way.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-28-2012, 09:02 PM

I personally think that Dr. Gordon is one of, if not, the top medical authority on male hormonal health in the vertical.

I think it's interesting that he uses terms like "estrogen blocker" when compounds like anastrozole are not "blockers" technically it's incorrect unless he's talking about something else.

Anastrozole competes and does NOT block.

Additionally, the excerpts posted here are limited in scope.

If a middle aged man presenting with age related androgen deficiency who is now seriously over weight and presenting with elevated E2 and very suppressed Testosterone serum levels will need an AI when they start a TRT protocol...that's a fact.

E follows T in most middle aged androgen deficient men and any increase in Testosterone levels will only add fuel to the fire if you will.

So while I would see Dr. Gordon in a heart beat I am willing to bet a ton of beer and pizza that he wouldn't disagree with my commentary here.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-28-2012, 09:16 PM

Let me add; this is why I love this guy, kid you not:

"More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg of T a week. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week. A rare 100mg a week. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space."

Really nice find HRT, brings many of us to the realities.

gd

PS This "interventional endocrinology" is his terminology and isn't one you will find in the medical vertical. He's still one of the best in my personal opinion...read his papers and you will know.

**bp2000** · 10-28-2012, 10:00 PM

I agree that lower doses should be tried first. But 60mg of Test Cyp. is not 60mg of T. You would need to dose a little higher to compensate for the long ester. 40mg x2 a week seems like a good place to start.

**lovbyts** · 10-28-2012, 10:29 PM

Interesting about the Zinc. I was reading on it a couple of weeks ago and posted the findings somewhere on here and for someone who was looking for a natural AI. I started taking zinc also but I'm not good at EVERY day.

**MuscleInk** · 10-28-2012, 10:46 PM

Interesting post. I'm a proponent of zinc as there are several benefits. Some in the research and clinical community however, believe that elemental zinc supplements may increase the risk of prostate cancer by as much as two fold. I'm spending a bit of time lately reviewing the literature further as this would be a considerable concern if accurate since anabolic agents often elevate PSA. Preliminary reports suggest a correlation between zinc and prostate cancer RISK, and not causality.

**bass** · 10-28-2012, 11:12 PM

Interesting discussion guys. I thought zinc was supposed to be good for prostate!

**steroid.com 1** · 10-28-2012, 11:16 PM

Every man should take 50mg of zinc every day...but don't count on it to act as an AI...it won't do it effectively.

**MuscleInk** · 10-28-2012, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by bass

Interesting discussion guys. I thought zinc was supposed to be good for prostate!

Yes, I've come across that too - originally why I was an advocate of Zn.

I'll be looking into this further. If a topic of interest, I'd be happy to start a thread with information for discussion.

**Renholder** · 10-29-2012, 04:09 AM

I`m also interested if he has anything to say on copper.

I never tested copper, but zinc was bottom range. After supplementing for a short time, 50 mg per day, my zinc increased to top of the range. This time I also measured copper and it was bottom range. There is copper in my multivitamin, but I suppose I may need to take more.

Regards,

Renholder

**kelkel** · 10-29-2012, 08:44 AM

Zinc and Testosterone :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875519

Here's a link to zinc on Examine.com (great site btw. Save to your favorites.) I've talked to the owner of this site. Nice guy, vitamin nerd, or so he calls himself:

http://examine.com/supplements/Zinc/

**MickeyKnox** · 10-29-2012, 09:15 AM

^^ Hey buddy im diggin the new avi! It appears more and more guys are humanizing their avi's. Looking lean and mean bro!

HRT, fabulous find! Thanks for sharing that!

**kelkel** · 10-29-2012, 09:23 AM

Lean is subjective. Mean? Well, I'm Irish....

**HRTstudent** · 10-29-2012, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Let me add; this is why I love this guy, kid you not:

"More than 80% of my population use 60-40mg of T a week. I have some very physically active males with 257.2 who use 40mg twice a week. A rare 100mg a week. I am in shock at the number of traditional physicians that start a patient on 200-300mg a week and automatically use an EB. I am even more perplexed over those of us who trained in interventional endocrinology and use excessive amounts. If we are to promote ourselves as safe alternatives to traditional medicine should we not provide that to our patients? All the best. M L Gordon. Watch for my new Medical Tidbits coming exclusively to the Anti-Aging Space."

Really nice find HRT, brings many of us to the realities.

gd

PS This "interventional endocrinology" is his terminology and isn't one you will find in the medical vertical. He's still one of the best in my personal opinion...read his papers and you will know.

That was very noteworthy to me as well. I imagine the low dose of T has more (not all) to do with never needing an AI than the zinc.

**xtitan1** · 10-29-2012, 12:15 PM

Interesting discussion. I know in Shippen's book written over 10 years ago he talked about Zinc for lowering e2, but he still prescribes AIs. Next appointment I will try to remember to ask him about this. Maybe I will record a video on my iPad or something.

**HRTstudent** · 10-29-2012, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by xtitan1

Interesting discussion. I know in Shippen's book written over 10 years ago he talked about Zinc for lowering e2, but he still prescribes AIs. Next appointment I will try to remember to ask him about this. Maybe I will record a video on my iPad or something.

Please do let us know.

Specifically useful would be:

1 what dose he uses,
2 does he split it up,
3 what form of zinc,
4 what does he do, if anything, about copper, and
5 roughly what percentage of men on TRT does he recommend zinc to?

If you could get that info to us... it would be great! I'm excited... maybe you can email his office? lol

**kelkel** · 10-29-2012, 06:07 PM

^^To a point, yes. It's all about balance right? Another reason to routinely give blood.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-29-2012, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK

I am surprised one would advocate Zinc while on injectable testosterone, since it can aid in elevating Hematocrit and Hemoglobin, one of the biggest worries when using injectable testosterone.

Hell, my TRT Physician compounds in 2mg of Zinc right in my Test Cyp.

In order for it to raise Hematocrit and Hemoglobin one needs to take in a lot more zinc than the recommended dosage.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-30-2012, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK

Well I personally would find a new physician, I have seen it hundreds of times. It does not take much to elevate Hemo, on top of that, I personally am not going to throw gasoline on a fire. Its not like I pulled that out of my ass, many well renowned HRT docs have said it.

On this forum such as ours we like to see proof or empirical evidence when it comes to definitive statements; show us just 20 of those "hundreds of times" where you've seen it so we can understand your point.

My TRT Physician, by the way, is one of the best in the county when it comes to Hormone Replacement Therapy in men and you think you know more then a Harvard schooled hormonal specialist?

Dr. John Crisler speaks and writes much about Zinc deficiency in men (it's actually a very high rate by the way) relative to elevated E2 levels and promotes men taking 50mg of Zinc every day; in fact it's one of his top nutrients for men.

Here's another fact: More than 70% of men do not obtain the minimum daily requirement of zinc from their diets. Understanding that 70% of men are Zinc deficient and knowing that this mineral is necessary for all aspects of male reproduction, including overall hormone metabolism (effects all pathways) and balance, prostate function, and sperm formation and motility...you can see why supplementation of a daily low dose of 50mg daily can help reverse these pathologies.

Read Dr Dzugan papers on nutritional supplements for aging men and he states the same thing re Zinc in the recommended dosages.

One of the biggest reasons for elevated E2 serum levels in man today is due primarily to dietary Zinc deficiency; again, the recommended dosage is 50mg ZN/2mg Cu QDn.

Prove your point with something substantial and validate yourself and please don't take this as a personal affront; our goal here is to provide correct information to members and quests as best as we possibly can.

Peace.

gd

**vetvso** · 10-30-2012, 07:28 AM

According to the research I have found so far.

Zinc as an E2 blocker will need to be in the 100mg plus range.

**kelkel** · 10-30-2012, 11:12 AM

Interesting information Det-Oak. I still have concerns with it over the recommendations of docs such as Gordon, Crisler, Shippen, as well as Scally but I will none the less give it consideration. Differing points of view are encouraged here and it is up the the members to decide which course of action is best for them in conjunction, hopefully, with an astute doctor and proper blood work, right!

My doc as well encouraged zinc from day one so this theory is very prevalent. Blood work from 10/25/12 had my Hemo at 14.1, scale 12.6 - 17.7and my Hema at 43.9, scale 37.5 - 51.0. Frequent monitoring of your blood is obviously key in the TRT world to managing your health, IMHO.

I'm interested in hearing more from both GD and you on this as I think it's a relevant conversation and I appreciate it, as I'm sure other members do as well.

Thanks to the both of you,

kel

**steroid.com 1** · 10-30-2012, 01:07 PM

This ---> If you disagree, I am ok with that.

I wouldn't say I totally disagree with you as your points are very well stated and clearly you have clinical experience...at least it appears that way.

You are correct in that my statements were focused on the larger male population and not necessarily men on TRT protocols.

But to kel's point, almost every hormone replacement Physician that I have studied all recommend 50mg of Zinc daily.

In fact, there are several studies out there that suggest that zinc plays a critical role in regulating the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. Granted, they were animal studies if I recall, but they surmised that dietary supplementation with zinc slowed the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

Dr Mark Gordon almost never uses an AI in his approach to TRT protocols in men but rather uses high-dose zinc to inhibit the aromatase enzyme. In Gordon's book he discusses Zinc Citrate dosages in the amounts of 160mg per day, in divided doses. (Any man thinking of taking this amount must add Copper to their supplements in the ratio of roughly 25:1 of zinc:copper.)

Zinc is key in that it helps make thyroid releasing hormone (TRH) in our brain. This in turn signals the pituitary to make thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH).

Low zinc levels, whether or not a man is on a TRT protocol or not, is associated with low T3 serum levels and a reduced ability to convert T4 to T3 (similar to the need for selenium for Thyroid health).

Also, if a man ingests a 50mg pill he'd be very luck if 5% to 7% of that compound actually made it into his bloodstream after the digestion process and first pass effect...so at the end of day it's still a very low dosage amount.

At any rate, it's all good discussion and it's what stimulates us all here to learn more and understand that there is no "one way" in TRT management for men.

Thanks for the response and contribution Det-Oak.

gd

**kelkel** · 10-30-2012, 04:21 PM

The last two posts define this forum IMO. It's what makes it such a worthwhile place to visit and learn from so many other like minded, yet diverse individuals with common goals.

Thanks!

kel

**Sworder** · 10-30-2012, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

But to kel's point, almost every hormone replacement Physician that I have studied all recommend 50mg of Zinc daily.

In fact, there are several studies out there that suggest that zinc plays a critical role in regulating the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. Granted, they were animal studies if I recall, but they surmised that dietary supplementation with zinc slowed the conversion of testosterone to DHT.
gd

Why do they recommend it? Yes, it plays a critical role in conversion to DHT, but is this why it is prescribed?

Yes, I did read the part about the aromatase.. Surely this isn't the reason to why it is prescribed.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-30-2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Why do they recommend it? Yes, it plays a critical role in conversion to DHT, but is this why it is prescribed?

Yes, I did read the part about the aromatase.. Surely this isn't the reason to why it is prescribed.

70% of men in the general population are deficient in Zinc due to dietary causes.

Men need Zinc...see some of my reasons posted above.

Have at it: http://www.lef.org/search/?q=zinc%20...ion&c=Magazine

**Sworder** · 10-30-2012, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

You are correct in that my statements were focused on the larger male population and not necessarily men on TRT protocols.
gd

Yes, that makes sense. Still peculiar that TRT docs would prescribe it, in my opinion. What deficits are looked at to determine if supplementation is needed? Or perhaps it is simply as you state, most men are deficient so lets give him some.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-30-2012, 10:36 PM

Honestly, I think it's just this---->"Or perhaps it is simply as you state, most men are deficient so lets give him some."

Men need zinc and we don't get enough in our regular daily diet; in fact one of the leading TRT Practitioners uses it as a natural aromatase inhibitor...what this entire thread is about.

There's something to it...

**Sworder** · 10-30-2012, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Honestly, I think it's just this---->"Or perhaps it is simply as you state, most men are deficient so lets give him some."

Fair enough

**steroid.com 1** · 10-30-2012, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK

and I thought we were on the right track and now we have went backwards lol

He asked "in a general sense" and I believe it's just a matter of knowing that men, for the most part, are deficient in Zinc due to dietary intake and good Physicians know that a moderate supplementation protocol is a better insurance policy than having nothing.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or are you always like this???

**steroid.com 1** · 10-31-2012, 12:15 AM

This thread was originally started by HRT in regards Dr. Mark Gordon's use of a daily high dose Zinc regiment combined with a low dose Testosterone replacement protocol and no need for an AI in controlling E2 and the success he's had with it.

Read his book, I have, and its very convincing by a cutting edge highly respected TRT Physician.

BTW, it's not just one TRT Doc recommending Zinc supplementation in men...it's most of them.

You must know somethings they don't...

I had enough, I am going to bed.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-31-2012, 12:37 AM

"So he can sell his book to someone else."

That's the response I pretty much what I expected to see; I'd give my right arm to see you debate Dr. Gordon...maybe both LOL!

**HRTstudent** · 10-31-2012, 12:41 AM

And for what it's worth, I love to find out if I'm dead wrong about something. But I need to be thoroughly convinced of it, like most people

.

If I find myself abandoning old "facts" then it must mean I am learning something new, perhaps more valuable, and surely it should aid me in figuring out whatever I am trying to figure out! I'd hate to try to find a sun-rise if I were to always travel west!

**steroid.com 1** · 10-31-2012, 12:42 AM

This is the problem HRT when you talk about mass populations----> "Also, what kind of diet are people consistently getting enough zinc that they have no need to supplement?"

In the mass population diets are deficient in Zinc...why is it so freaking hard to get that point across???

And it's use as a natural AI has been proven by Dr. Gordon in his research and clinical practice.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-31-2012, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by HRTstudent

And for what it's worth, I love to find out if I'm dead wrong about something. But I need to be thoroughly convinced of it, like most people

.

If I find myself abandoning old "facts" then it must mean I am learning something new, perhaps more valuable, and surely it should aid me in figuring out whatever I am trying to figure out! I'd hate to try to find a sun-rise if I were to always travel west!

Love it!!!

That's precisely why you are Red my brother!!!

**HRTstudent** · 10-31-2012, 01:53 AM

Thanks for that study (first link) on zinc. I just started reading it and it's really good so far. But i'll have to finish reading it tomorrow.

Also, I've read that zinc citrate might not be THE best form of zinc (its far from the worse though, and even the above article cites citrate improves zinc absorption). I thought about it as well as to why Dr Gordon uses it. I would really like to hear from him why he chooses it. But right now, I figure that he uses it because it works and he knows how to use it clinically.

**kelkel** · 10-31-2012, 10:00 AM

That's half the issue. Most people do not have a proper diet and most will not radically change theirs. People are creatures of habit, atavistic in nature. IMO, the conversation about zinc has ended and now it's about who is correct. The people here can make up their minds with help from their docs if needed. When it comes to debating a doctor such as Gordon or one of the others mentioned, I highly doubt anyone here would stand a chance, including yourself as well.

Everything we ingest causes our bodies to have an action and subsequent reaction. Every vitamin out there has a long list of side effects, even water soluble ones. Matter of fact, if aspirin were just now developed odds are it would be a controlled substance. My point, we all just have to use caution with all we injest when trying to improve our health.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-31-2012, 10:01 AM

[QUOTE=THE-DET-OAK;6238647]

and what about the copper recommendation ? no mention on that I guess.[QUOTE]

I did mention about copper in this thread: "(Any man thinking of taking this amount must add Copper to their supplements in the ratio of roughly 25:1 of zinc:copper.)"

**kelkel** · 10-31-2012, 10:34 AM

It has been a good discussion, to a point. I have spoken to many docs myself who would not hold a candle to many of us in certain aspects, particularly TRT. I'm in regular contact with Crisler and Scally as a matter of fact. The doc's referred to in this thread are some of the best in their field. Quite honestly are you saying that your knowledge, skill and abilities surpass the mentioned docs?