HCG and or pregnenolone + DHEA

[ctenosaura]

My buddy a personal trainer asked me a few questions I didn't have answers for so I was hoping some of you could help?

1) Would taking DHEA and pregnenolone by itself be beneficial?

2) Is there any harm in taking 250iu's of HCG 2 to 3 x a week alone for 6 weeks?

3) Since a TRT program is for life, what are the long term implications of the Testosterone telling your body to stop producing test and HCG telling your body "to" produce test? Like two forces constantly fighting each other.

Thanks!

[MickeyKnox]

This is a great start...

hCG and Pregnenolone; What you should know.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread....#.UJWP6mfX_fs

[gbrice75]

My buddy a personal trainer asked me a few questions I didn't have answers for so I was hoping some of you could help?

1) Would taking DHEA and pregnenolone by itself be beneficial?

2) Is there any harm in taking 250iu's of HCG 2 to 3 x a week alone for 6 weeks?

3) Since a TRT program is for life, what are the long term implications of the Testosterone telling your body to stop producing test and HCG telling your body "to" produce test? Like two forces constantly fighting each other.

Thanks!

Exogenous test doesn't exactly tell your body to 'stop' producing test, but rather, tells your body there's no need 'TO' produce test. If anything, it's telling your body to stop producing LH/FSH, which in turn stops the production of test. Same result, slightly different mechanism. HCG will 'trick' your body by sending the signal (as an LH analogue) to the testes to produce endogenous test. Therefore, you're not really looking at 2 forces fighting eachother. As long as the signal is there to produce test, production should continue.

PS - this is not my area of expertise, but this is how I understand it. If i'm off the mark, feel free to right me.

[steroid.com 1]

You got it correct gb.

HCG, if a man is Secondary Hypogonadal, will cause some increases in natural production and will not really effect HPTA in a negative way like Testosterone can do.

[M302_Imola]

You got it correct gb.

HCG, if a man is Secondary Hypogonadal, will cause some increases in natural production and will not really effect HPTA in a negative way like Testosterone can do.

Interesting! I thought that some negative feedback to the HPTA would occur with prolonged HCG use when one is not on exogenous test.

[Granovich]

You got it correct gb.

HCG, if a man is Secondary Hypogonadal, will cause some increases in natural production and will not really effect HPTA in a negative way like Testosterone can do.

I thought HCG does suppress HPTA thats why its not used during PCT

[steroid.com 1]

HCG usage doesn't HPTA suppress men who are already androgen deficient because of age or pathology...they are already HPTA suppressed.

Don't confuse the use of HCG in HRT for men and aas use...these are two totally different discussions.

In the HRT world for men we use HCG to keep their testicles functioning (as an LH analog) properly while living a regimented and life long HPTA suppressed life which a life long term use of exogenous Testosterone causes...so keep in mind, HCG does not keep HTPA intact per se but allows a re-start an easier proposition if the testes still function properly...plus a bunch of other stuff the HCG sticky I wrote covers.

If a man is diagnosed as Secondary (or even Primary for that matter as HCG has a neuro effect on men) hypogonadal the typical dosages would not suppress HPTA as the subject is already in a state of HPTA suppression generally caused by age related androgen deficiency or the related pathology.

The use of HCG as a mono therapy for Hypogonadism has a proven track record of being largely ineffective and why clinicians who are trained properly go to either a transdermal or injection protocol for Testosterone.

Please, don't confuse the use of HCG in the Primary or Secondary Hypogondal male to a man using aas for other purposes...they are two different scenarios.

[MickeyKnox]

Excellent ^^ I was waiting for that.

Quick question for GDevine. Is the reason for excluding hCG in PCT because of the self induced suppression from exogenous Test, and that the hCG will only serve to prolong the self induced suppression in a otherwise healthy male? Do i have this right?

Thanks in advance.

[steroid.com 1]

Below.

[steroid.com 1]

Excellent ^^ I was waiting for that.

Quick question for GDevine. Is the reason for excluding hCG in PCT because of the self induced suppression from exogenous Test, and that the hCG will only serve to prolong the self induced suppression in a otherwise healthy male? Do i have this right?

Thanks in advance.

Your question is a bit confusing.

A man who wants to restart from a exogenous use of Testosterone will need HCG as part of their restart protocol...there are other drugs a Physician may use as well but HCG is a staple to get the HPT axis restarted.

The use of HCG in the HPTA suppressed male who is not Primary Hypogonadal will go to help with a restart all things considered even those who use aas.

[MickeyKnox]

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my question Gdivine. However i may have confused you and myself..lol

Let me word it differently. In an otherwise healthy male (not on TRT) who decides to use AAS for a 12kwk cycle, why is hCG NOT used during PCT? Is this because the hCG would prolong the self induced suppression of the HPTA?

Basically my question is what is hCG not used during PCT, the rest of my wordy question was to simply cover any "loose ends."

[steroid.com 1]

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my question Gdivine. However i may have confused you and myself..lol

Let me word it differently. In an otherwise healthy male (not on TRT) who decides to use AAS for a 12kwk cycle, why is hCG NOT used during PCT? Is this because the hCG would prolong the self induced suppression of the HPTA?

Basically my question is what is hCG not used during PCT, the rest of my wordy question was to simply cover any "loose ends."

HCG is used in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) to restart the Hypothalamus (as it acts as an LH analog), Pituitary and Testicular Axis...what we call commonly as HPTA.

A man who shuts himself down either through the use of aas or the through the medically prescribed use of hormones for medical reasons will need HCG to re-start HPTA so as long they are not Primary Hypogonadal.

Why a man wouldn't use HCG to restart during a PCT is beyond me...I always thought it as a staple for PCT if I get your question correctly Mickey.

[Tron3219]

Gd, do U have any idea at what dose you'd become desensitized to the hcg. I'm assuming the desensitized receptor would b the lh receptor?

The reason I ask is because of the pct protocol...power pct I believe is what they're calling it. The one with hcg at pretty high dosage, an ai, clomid? And vit e

-TroN-

[steroid.com 1]

Gd, do U have any idea at what dose you'd become desensitized to the hcg. I'm assuming the desensitized receptor would b the lh receptor?

The reason I ask is because of the pct protocol...power pct I believe is what they're calling it. The one with hcg at pretty high dosage, an ai, clomid? And vit e

-TroN-

Good question.

It's not so much about "desensitization" (if that even exists) as it is the concern for increase in unwanted E2

When a man utilizes high in levels of HCG, say in the range of 350 iu daily, it can/may increase E2...but more importantly, it can/may increase intratestesticular E2---which an AI is largely ineffective in controlling.

I love Dr. Crisler's approach to the use of HCG: no more then 350 iu on any one dosage and no more then two of those dosages a week with the exception of transdermal users where he like 100 iu daily of HCG.

Personally, I like even smaller doses more frequently if you inject IM.

I do HCG 250 iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday and all is good including E2

[Tron3219]

Gotcha, is there a counter action for intertesticular
E2 elevation?
-TroN-

[Tron3219]

Good question.

It's not so much about "desensitization" (if that even exists) as it is the concern for increase in unwanted E2

When a man utilizes high in levels of HCG, say in the range of 350 iu daily, it can/may increase E2...but more importantly, it can/may increase intratestesticular E2---which an AI is largely ineffective in controlling.

I love Dr. Crisler's approach to the use of HCG: no more then 350 iu on any one dosage and no more then two of those dosages a week with the exception of transdermal users where he like 100 iu daily of HCG.

Personally, I like even smaller doses more frequently if you inject IM.

I do HCG 250 iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday and all is good including E2

Now is this during pct or on cycle?

-TroN-

[MickeyKnox]

HCG is used in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) to restart the Hypothalamus (as it acts as an LH analog), Pituitary and Testicular Axis...what we call commonly as HPTA.

A man who shuts himself down either through the use of aas or the through the medically prescribed use of hormones for medical reasons will need HCG to re-start HPTA so as long they are not Primary Hypogonadal.

Why a man wouldn't use HCG to restart during a PCT is beyond me...I always thought it as a staple for PCT if I get your question correctly Mickey.

What youre saying is making sense to me but im confused. Until this post i was under the impression that hCG belonged on cycle, NOT during the recovery period. I no longer include PCT (S/A TRT) but i often discourage others from using it during PCT as opposed to on cycle. IOW, you wither use it on cycle or at the very least you can blast it BEFORE your PCT.

Here is a quote form S.w.i.f.t.o when i asked this specific question...

“Because when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this period there is a leydig cell refractory period, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even fro a few day) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.

This refractory period is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.

Endogenous LH levels can rise fairly quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too.

Good enough reason?”

Based on this i have been recommending others, and have done this myself included, to use hCG on cycle and stop about 3-4 days before you commence PCT. I have never recommended using it during PCT.

Can hcG be used during cycle AND in PCT? Or if used on cycle, not during PCT? OR if not on cycle use during PCT?

Your thoughts? Thanks for sticking with this brother.

[Tron3219]

What youre saying is making sense to me but im confused. Until this post i was under the impression that hCG belonged on cycle, NOT during the recovery period. I no longer include PCT (S/A TRT) but i often discourage others from using it during PCT as opposed to on cycle. IOW, you wither use it on cycle or at the very least you can blast it BEFORE your PCT.

Here is a quote form S.w.i.f.t.o when i asked this specific question...

“Because when we inject HCG endogenous testosterone spikes twice, not once. It spikes it the first time almost immediately and then the larger spike in Test is around 72 hours. During this period there is a leydig cell refractory period, where the leydig cells are non-responsive. We don't want to be going into PCT (even fro a few day) with our leydig cells un-responsive and testes unable to increase Test.

This refractory period is over if we do our final injection more than 4-5 days out from PCT. The added endogenous Test, if we went into PCT, may also cause androgen and estrogen inhibition at the hypothalamus if used too close to PCT IMO as well.

Endogenous LH levels can rise fairly quickly during PCT, in days, not weeks too.

Good enough reason?”

Based on this i have been recommending others, and have done this myself included, to use hCG on cycle and stop about 3-4 days before you commence PCT. I have never recommended using it during PCT.

Can hcG be used during cycle AND in PCT? Or if used on cycle, not during PCT? OR if not on cycle but can be used during PCT?

Your thoughts?

Exactly my upcoming series of questing in many more words and less posts! Lol

-TroN-

[DanMan250]

HCG is used in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) to restart the Hypothalamus (as it acts as an LH analog), Pituitary and Testicular Axis...what we call commonly as HPTA.

A man who shuts himself down either through the use of aas or the through the medically prescribed use of hormones for medical reasons will need HCG to re-start HPTA so as long they are not Primary Hypogonadal.

Why a man wouldn't use HCG to restart during a PCT is beyond me...I always thought it as a staple for PCT if I get your question correctly Mickey.

gdevine, you are way off the mark! I read a post from you a few months back stating that HCG keeps the HPTA intact, but was too lazy to sign in and pull you up on it. This time, I can't help myself.
Since HCG is a LH analogue, the hypothalamus senses this and reduces the amount of GnRH sent to the pituitary, so therefore far less LH is secreted by the pituitary. HCG can maintain testicular function by stimulating the leydig cells to produce testosterone, but it is suppressive to both the hypothalamus and pituitary. This is why it is a mistake to use HCG during PCT. You want the hypothalamus and pituitary to regain their normal function after an AAS cycle, not stay suppressed which is what HCG does.
Here is an article written by Dr John Crisler:
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) every third day, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. This is infinitely better than waiting until they have seriously atrophied. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. This drives up estrogen levels, unopposed by increased testosterone production. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. They have been shown to represent the rate-limiting step in HPTA recovery (usually). LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of testicular stimulation by same. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 50mg QD for Clomid, 20mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator—the class of drugs Nolvadex and Clomid belong to) at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures), BEFORE beginning to taper down the SERM. Tapering the SERM is a must at the end, dropping the dose in half every five days until you are taking only 12.5mg of Clomid, or 5mg of Nolvadex, before stopping.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG a week or so after the end of the cycle. Exactly how long you take it depends upon the half-life of the AAS used, and their dosing. Otherwise, the testosterone production HCG induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatizable steroids is a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

[steroid.com 1]

Dan - I am well versed in Crisler's protocols. I know him, have spoken to him on more than a few occasions and we email somewhat frequently. His paper you copied and pasted above I know well.

I should have been clearer when I posted last night (actually early this morning) as I was a bit bleary-eyed.

My thought process was more centered on the man who used aas without the use of HCG and is in state of HPTA suppression. That man will need HCG to get re-started...hopefully, as noted by DRJ.

You guys are correct, when HCG is used during cycle will need to stop as again noted by DRJ. My head was rapped around the guy who didn't use HCG not the guy who used.

Sorry for the confusion fellows.

gd

[MickeyKnox]

Thank you very much for clearing that up Gdevine. As always, I appreciate your feedback and expertise.

[steroid.com 1]

Thank you very much for clearing that up Gdevine. As always, I appreciate your feedback and expertise.

Thanks Mickey... gotta stop dropping in at these crazy early morning hours man...I can't think that hard LOL