may need trt at 26!

[sawyer86]

hello everyone, so as the title says i have been told by my doc i may need trt. i have abused steroids due to lack of knowledge and stupidity. i ended up in hospital and have been off cycle for around 5months. ive had bloods took and my testosterone came back at 5.6! the doc said i may need trt but he wants to speak to a specialist and see me next week. i also put a sperm test in today. i am only 26 and want more kids. i no it is dangerous to have no testosterone but i no it wont come back whilst on trt. suppose il have to see what the the specialist says. just thought i'd try and talk to some people who know what they talking about.

[Brohim]

Did you do a proper PCT - Post cycle Therapy. It is where you take HCG and Clomid/Nolvadex for 6-7 weeks to "restart" your system. I would try this protocol first and then get retested. TRT will only raise your test it won't help you restart your system. If you are simply shutdown from steroid abuse 90% of the time you can restart your system and get it working again to a decent test level. One member on here had to do 3 "cycles" of HCG and clomid theraphy before his system rebooted. Depending on the hormones you took, it could take that long. At 26 it is not age related decline - you have great chance with HCG/Clomid to get back on your feet.

[austinite]

Do you have a copy of your bloodwork you can upload, sawyer? Or can you post your levels including ranges here?

[Vettester]

Agree, would like to see the rest of the labs. Presume your serum was nmol?

[sawyer86]

yea i did 7 weeks of pct. the course i had was sus deca oxymethylone. before that trenbalone. i dont have my results but my testosterone was 5.6 and should be between 10-30. for my age around 17. i was told everything else was normal however i an back next week for another blood test.

[oldnsedentary]

deca . . .

How long has it been since the last shot of Deca? That stuff suppresses forever and ever . . . several months was my experience. What was your dosage?


Also, your "sus" is a mixture that includes a decanoate ester, so it may be that this stuff was in your system a lot longer than you thought.

[HRTstudent]

At only 5 months, you may see continued improvement over time. Some people take longer than others. That may mean you. You can't discount this.

But there are better options to try first than TRT if fertility is important to you. Off the top of my head I would say low dose clomid is a good place to start.

[oldnsedentary]

Ok, 5 months, I missed that. Ought to be coming back by now, but Nandralone Decanoate can still be detected up to 6 months after administration. Something to keep in mind.

[oldnsedentary]

yea i did 7 weeks of pct.

What does this mean? What did you do, exactly?

[sawyer86]

pct was 10 days of hcg at 500iu a day followed by nolvadex 40mg a day for 2 weeks then 20mg a day for 5 weeks.

[sawyer86]

bump?

[HRTstudent]

bump?

What are your goals?

Do you want to go on TRT? Avoid it?

Nothing really much to say at this point. You've taken some pretty harsh, suppressive drugs. There will be some shut down of course, and your body may simply have yet to recover. Of course, maybe it was always low. We don't know without prior labs.

And what symptoms do you have now that you didn't before abusing androgens?

[sawyer86]

my goals are to add lean mass whilst keeping bodyfat low. although i am struggling to to put weight on. i am trying for another baby at the minute. i am always tired amd run down and keep geting bad. and my balls are tiny! if i need trt i dont mind if its what my body needs apart from wanting a baby

[HRTstudent]

my goals are to add lean mass whilst keeping bodyfat low. although i am struggling to to put weight on. i am trying for another baby at the minute. i am always tired amd run down and keep geting bad. and my balls are tiny! if i need trt i dont mind if its what my body needs apart from wanting a baby

Fertility is far, far more important than adding lean mass and keeping bodyfat low. I would be talking to my doctors about low dose clomid, avoiding TRT for now.

[TraceMYD]

Go to a fertility clinic and get your sperm count tested and start freezing a few vials for storage as a backup plan incase you become not fertile on TRT.

That's what I did as a precaution before instarted TRT and it's a good thing because its going to be the only way I have another kid now because my sperm count is nothing now that I'm on TRT.

[HRTstudent]

Go to a fertility clinic and get your sperm count tested and start freezing a few vials for storage as a backup plan incase you become not fertile on TRT.

That's what I did as a precaution before instarted TRT and it's a good thing because its going to be the only way I have another kid now because my sperm count is nothing now that I'm on TRT.

Great advice. I wish I had thought of that beforehand JUST for the peace of mind.

It's just something now that lingers... "what if".

But I could have avoided it quite easily. Would have been worth the 7 grey hairs...

[sawyer86]

i done a sperm test last week. should have the results one day this week. ive got a feeling its going to be low or no good at all! seen my doc thursday for another blood test and hopefully sperm result. hes also geting advice from a specialist so he should know a littl bit more when i see him. i hope so anyway, as i get the impression most docs dont have a clue and you guys on here have better knowledge.

[Trific]

I've heard a story where a guy had to try three times to restart before it worked for him...think I'd try that if you can handle it and maybe somewhere in that time the wife will become PG and then after that you can see where your total is off of everything and then determine if you need TRT.

[powerlifterty16]

does restarting usually work for guys like me who have never used roids and just have low t naturally?

[Trific]

does restarting usually work for guys like me who have never used roids and just have low t naturally?

You could always try since you are young, could try clomid monotherapy...but I think the wise people will say that most likely when you take away the clomid that your level will go back to where it was before clomid....this should all be in your thread but I think the next thing I'd do if I were you would be to check if it's a varicocele or not.

[sawyer86]

I've heard a story where a guy had to try three times to restart before it worked for him...think I'd try that if you can handle it and maybe somewhere in that time the wife will become PG and then after that you can see where your total is off of everything and then determine if you need TRT.

yea thanks mate. ill see what info the doc has thersday and ill post it for some advice. hopefully he suggests a restart and yea would be great if she got preg in the meantime!

[sawyer86]

just been to see the doctor. my sperm test came back normal! so ive got low testosterone (5.6 and should be around 17) but normal sperm. where do i go from here? doctor didnt really no what to do.

[fit2bOld]

Do a good pct with clomid and nolva. 4 weeks
Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Hcg 250 iu 3x week

Then retest your blood 3-4 weeks after
I don't recommend you start any TRT until you try to restart.
Your doctor is likely not to know a thing about this.

[sawyer86]

thanks for the advice. your right, my doc hasnt got a clue! so you think i should just sort this out myself?

[powerlifterty16]

nolva is a carcinogenic and i wouldn't go on clomid

[sawyer86]

anyone else?

[powerlifterty16]

u dont trust me? search google boss.

[sawyer86]

not that i dont trust you buddy, just trying to get as much info as possible.

[HRTstudent]

just been to see the doctor. my sperm test came back normal! so ive got low testosterone (5.6 and should be around 17) but normal sperm. where do i go from here? doctor didnt really no what to do.

Fertility and TRT are two really different things...

Are you interested in having children in the next 2 years?

What are your thoughts about going on testosterone? What about trying alternative routes such as clomid?

[Trific]

And maybe some of this:

HMG (Human Menopausal Gonadotropin) is used for stimulating hormones by triggering FSH and LH production in the body. This drug was originally designed for use in women where it stimulates the ovaries to produce multiple follicles, thus making them more fertile.The dosage varies from woman to woman, and HMG has been shown to induce ovulation in about 75-85% of patients that it is administered to.

In men, HMG can be used to stimulate natural testosterone production and to keep or restore the natural function of the testes. Those using HMG after testicular dystrophy often report an increase in sex drive and sense of well being as well as an increased rebound in fertility.

HMG is a drug similar to HCG in use and some of its function, but also has the added benefit of FSH stimulation, which triggers extra receptors to produce testosterone. While HCG is known mainly for testicular stimulation, HMG will also increase the amount of sperm the body is producing, which HCG isn’t as effective at. Although it hasn't been around as long and isn't as recognized as HCG, HMG is steadily picking up more interest in the medical community for the roles it can play in testosterone recovery. Those who don't see the results and recovery they want from a typical PCT protocol may find HMG beneficial since it is able to stimulate the body's receptors at a wider range of points than HCG is able to.

HMG can be most effective when ran alongside other LH stimulating drugs such as HCG, clomid, and nolvadex. A typical dose of 75-150iu a day for 2 weeks is sufficient for restoring normal testicular function and sperm count in males. One may also wish to run an anti-estrogen such as aromasin during administration of this drug due to the possibility of elevated estrogen levels.

[sawyer86]

i was wanting another child soonish yea. why do you just ask about 2 years? my thoughts are if i need it i dont mind going on it. what what would you suggest about chlomid? chlomid nolva hcg been suggested in a earlier message but then told not to?

[powerlifterty16]

search clomid the big lie

[VTX1800]

trific, what's your take on using HMG while on TRT to try and increase sperm production? My wife and I ate trying to have our first child, Im currently taking clomid with my hcg to try and keep natural sperm levels up. )if possible) I've read ALOT about fertility and TRT an I realize the seriousness of the fertility issue so we can save that subject for a later thread. Just curious to see if you think it would help? I was browsing earlier today and found some HMG for around $49...

[VTX1800]

search clomid the big lie

Browser won't open your page? ��

[Trific]

trific, what's your take on using HMG while on TRT to try and increase sperm production? My wife and I ate trying to have our first child, Im currently taking clomid with my hcg to try and keep natural sperm levels up. )if possible) I've read ALOT about fertility and TRT an I realize the seriousness of the fertility issue so we can save that subject for a later thread. Just curious to see if you think it would help? I was browsing earlier today and found some HMG for around $49...

It looks promising but I haven't dug very much up on it yet...

[VTX1800]

Sorry for the long post but its the link power posted and I felt like sharing!

Hey everyone, I found this info and I thought it would be very useful to post it here and get some comments and discussion going about it. I haven't seen this anywhere on the forums, so I thought I might as well post it right now. The author of this article is Nelson Montana, and I unfortunately don't know where this is from, because I just found this in a document file on my computer. I'm also going to post this in the Educational Threads section, because there's alot of important knowlege one can gain from reading this article. Anyhow, this is gigantic just to let you know... here it is:


-------------------------------------------------------------------

CLOMID - THE BIG LIE


Like everyone else who has ever read a single book (or every book for that matter) on the proper use of anabolics, I usually included a course of Clomid after each cycle. It was the responsible thing to do. So they say. There was just one little problem with this procedure. It seemed to make the recovery and the return of libido, testicular size, sperm count, seminal volume and normal testosterone levels worse. How can this be? Maybe I was just a weird exception to the rule. One doctor suggested I might have some bizarre feedback loop that gave the drug its negative effects. Maybe I was crazy. Maybe not.

The simple truth of the matter is this: the thinking on Clomid is based on some very sketchy evidence which has been parroted endlessly among the bodybuilding community. In a way, I'm at fault myself. Allow me to explain.

A few years back, I co-wrote an article with Brock Strasser called "The Steroid Summit." In that piece, I mentioned Clomid and ejaculate volume. Where I was going with this was the fact that I noticed a definite decrease in ejaculate volume and this would indicate that Clomid wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. Brock replied "Oh yeah, Clomid will definitely increase ejaculate" and he went on to say how male porn stars are using it to enhance their "bursts of drama" so to speak. We were tackling a lot of topics and I didn't want to dispute his contention so I let it go. At any rate, wouldn't you know... the rumor about porn stars and Clomid ran rampant. I started hearing it everywhere, even in places unassociated with bodybuilding.

I knew I couldn't be the only person experiencing negative effects from Clomid so I did a little personal survey. It turns out I wasn't as weird as I thought. Out of over 100 bodybuilders I questioned, about 1 in 4 experienced in the use of steroids and aromatase blockers admitted that Clomid didn't have the effects they were hoping for. Many also claimed that Nolvadex , which has a very similar structure to Clomid, caused a loss in libido and a weak ejaculation. Even among those who felt it helped them, there were
complaints about "emotional distress" and "weepiness", both of which suggest an increase in estrogen. So how can anyone be sure Clomid is actually beneficial?

Still, the rumors persist.

I was on a popular internet message board recently and someone was claiming that they weren't getting back their atrophied testicles even after using 50mgs of Clomid for two weeks. The resident "guru" suggested taking 100mgs for another two weeks. This line of thinking is straight from the middle ages when doctors prescribed leeches to cure a disease -- if the patient got sicker from the treatment the solution was; more leeches! Ridiculous? Of course. Some things never change.

There are several major problems associated with Clomid, as well as Arimidex , Nolvadex, Teslac or any other estrogen blocker. For one thing, all these compounds are indiscriminate in how much estrogen they block. So what's bad about that? Well, the whole point of using an anti-estrogen is to protect against the spillover of estrogen that comes with the excessive use of androgens. If the body can't metabolize all that testosterone , it aromatizes into estrogens. What the experts fail to address is the fact that the amount of aromatization varies greatly from individual to individual. If the steroid dosages are moderate, there might not be any aromatization of any consequence, and the anti-estrogens may lower levels below what they were normally! And keep one very important fact in mind. A little estrogen in men is necessary for a healthy libido. (It's also necessary for other things such as bone density, skin tone, etc., but I can't think of anything more important to most men than their dicks.)

More recently, it's even been suggested that estrogen may play a role in the proliferation of androgen receptors. This may explain why some experienced steroid users claim that they get decreased results when adding an anti-estrogen to their stack. It was once thought that anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex decreased IGF-1, but this has not been validated with any concrete evidence. Nevertheless, studies done on rats found that androgen receptor binding was dramatically increased after the administration of estradiol, increasing the anabolic potency of the androgenic steroid. If nothing else, this shows that estrogen is, on some level, directly or indirectly involved in the process of promoting muscle growth. There's also the added element of strength and size gains due to the water retention that estrogen inflicts. And just as a kicker, anti- estrogens may also increase sex hormone binding globulin which is the last thing you want when coming off a cycle.

In the case of Clomid, the effects may be even worse than other anti-estrogens since Clomid is a mild estrogen itself. The basic theory behind its use (which is sounding more and more stupid every day) is essentially that the Clomid will occupy the estrogen receptor sites thus disallowing the formation of more estrogen. Maybe. What's more likely in cases where estrogen levels are normal, the Clomid will simply add more estrogen. This may the reason for some people's apparent aversion to Clomid and its estrogen-like side effects. Even if Clomid did lower estrogen, there's no evidence that lower estrogen will necessarily lead to increased testosterone, yet this is the premise which everyone follows. Clomid has also been known to produce a decrease in the LH response to LH releasing hormone. This is something that has been known for a while, (findings on this date as far back as 1978) yet curiously ignored. Naturally, studies aren't conducted to benefit the bodybuilder on steroids, so we must learn to read between the line sometimes. In doing so, conclusions can be drawn. All too often steroid gurus draw them incorrectly.

The notion of increased sperm count is also one of contention. Allow me to cite this quote from a study done on Clomid:

"Treatments with idiopathic oligospermia for six to nine months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin testosterone and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with low sperm count below normal basal FSH levels. In cases where sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibitory effect."

What this suggests in plain English is that not everyone reacts to Clomid treatment in the same way and sperm levels must be abnormally suppressed for the drug to be of any benefit. And even in situations where that is the case, the side effect was lowered Follicle Stimulating Hormone, which as you may know, controls the amount of Leutinizing Hormone we release which in turn regulates how much testosterone we have. This is why so many bodybuilders claim to crash after coming off of the Clomid.

Judging from this information it's clear that Clomid, at best, is a crap shoot and its benefits, if any, are temporary. So why is everyone still taking it? Of course, this is hypothesis on my part and a lot of the pedants and pundits will refuse to acknowledge it. After all, all the pros use Clomid. Why should anyone listen to me? They don't have to, but they should.

I was speaking with Jerry Brainum on this very subject. I should mention, Jerry, unlike some of the self-appointed experts that abound on the internet and the world of underground newsletters, is one of the most knowledgeable people in the business on the subject of nutrition and pharmacology. He's been writing on the subject before most of these pseudo whiz kids were born. He knows everybody who is anybody in the world of bodybuilding. When I mentioned my theories about Clomid he said to me; "You're not alone. I don't know a single pro who still uses Clomid." This in itself speaks volumes. Of course, it may not be the best validation for my argument since there are plenty of pro bodybuilders who are complete jackasses when it comes to knowledge and application of anabolics. He or she usually hires someone who knows something, or more likely, can get something. The protocol is then to load the syringe to the top and keep shooting until the stash is gone. Nevertheless, the fact that Clomid has lost its allure among the higher echelon on the bodybuilding ranks is a sure sign it isn't working well. If it did, they'd all use it, even if they stayed on 365 days a year. Who wouldn't want to maintain testicular size and increase natural production while keeping estrogen low? If Clomid was effective in doing so, there'd be no reason to stop. They know what works and what doesn't. And they know that Clomid sucks. (Of course, there's always some lunkhead who doesn't catch on right away.)

One last thing to keep in mind: Back in the 60's and early 70's no one used antiestrogens. Look at the pictures of the stars of that time and you'd be hard pressed to find a case of gyno anywhere. Food for thought. The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed -- even if it worked well, which it doesn't. Forget Clomid. For more effective methods of keeping excess estrogen in check, read on.

IF YOU MUST...


When it comes to anti-estrogens, the best bet may be not in occupying the receptor sites, as does Clomid, but to compete with the testosterone/estrogen balance. At one time, Proviron was deemed a valid choice as an anti-estrogen agent until some of the sophomoric steroid students argued that it didn't have any direct anti-estrogenic properties. True, but it still looks as if it's the best choice if you feel the need to guard against estrogen build up. It does so because DHT acts as a gyno antagonist. (Yet another thing that has been oddly overlooked.) Even when DHT is applied topically it's been shown to reduce gyno in cases where the gyno hadn't been a chronic condition.

Beyond the direct effect of DHT, Proviron has distinct benefits, the first being that as a derivative of DHT it isn't capable of forming estrogen, yet it has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than does testosterone. That means administering it with another aromatizable compound will prevent estrogen build up due to the fact that DHT binds to the aromatase enzyme so strongly. There's also been some suggestion that Proviron may downgrade the actual estrogen receptor, thereby making it twice as effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels. And because DHT has such a high affinity for SHBG it leaves more free testosterone to impart its anabolic effects.

It makes sense that the use of Proviron is a more practical and rational method of dealing with the possibility of excess estrogen than the aforementioned method of attempting to add a weaker estrogen in the hopes that it will prevent aromatization.

William Llewellyn touches upon this in Anabolics 2000. He says...

"(Proviron) is in contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks estrogen's ability to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues." (such as breast tissue)

In other words, the World Anabolic Reference was right when it stated; "Proviron cures the problem of aromatization at the root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms. "

Proviron in moderate doses has been shown to be remarkably safe and free of side effects in most men. If you must use an anti-estrogen, Proviron is the way go.

[VTX1800]

It looks promising but I haven't dug very much up on it yet...

I may just have to give it a whirl, do you think it may screw around my BW? My FSH and LH are LOW LOW LOW as it is. Guess it couldn't hurt, just don't need the doc suspecting something fishy.

[Trific]

I may just have to give it a whirl, do you think it may screw around my BW? My FSH and LH are LOW LOW LOW as it is. Guess it couldn't hurt, just don't need the doc suspecting something fishy.

I doubt HMG would alarm your doc in the BW and you could stop checking FSH and LH because TRT makes them go low and that's normal.

[powerlifterty16]

are fsh 2.9 and lh 2.0 good? that was what my values were october 2010
total test was 535 at the time also

[HRTstudent]

are fsh 2.9 and lh 2.0 good? that was what my values were october 2010
total test was 535 at the time also

Well, I would say that LH and FSH were sufficient to get you to a nice testosterone level. And that's what really counts.