adex dosing while on T cream

**raym** · 03-13-2013, 02:52 PM

I've been on TRT for about 6 weeks. Started with a total T of 232 (348 - 1197) and my 4 week BW has me at 348 (291-739). Anyways, I've got a gut which I've been working on losing, and I believe I am at a good risk of aromitization. My 4 week estradiol was 34 (< 40). I've got joint pain, libido issues and a couple of other things that lead me to believe I have an e2 issue.

My doc is not a believer in AI, so I'm kind of on my own on this one. I've got a bottle of liquidex and have no problems ordering my own BW to monitor e2.

Been reading the forum and looking at advice. It seems like most advice is to time adex with T injections. I'm doing a compounded cream 2x a day, every day. Would that change the dosing schedule?

Also, is dosage bodyweight dependent to any degree?

Also - I'm retaining water like a son of a gun. Is this a general T thing? e2 related? ??

Thanks!

Ray

**zerodarkthirty** · 03-13-2013, 03:24 PM

A lot of folks on TD cream do not need AIs. Do you know if the estradiol test was the sensitive assay or just the general test for E2? This could make a big difference. I had similar (i.e. poor) results with cream and have several threads on my experience with them. I'm now on shots, and feel better, although not quite dialed in yet. I also had water retention with the cream. Any anxiety shortly after putting on the cream?

**raym** · 03-13-2013, 03:51 PM

Thanks for the reply. One of the reasons I am wondering if I need to worry about this is that I am pretty overweight - I could easily lose another 40 pounds. I've been told that excess bodyfat is a very powerful aromatization source. I've also been told that for some people creams will aromatize even more because of the skin/subq absorption path.

Regarding the test - I do not know if it is sensitive or not. The test had different reference ranges for men, children and women. I believe the test I had was "Estradiol, Males, Children or Postmenopausal Females by Tandem Mass Spectrometry"

Can't really tell about anxiety - been feeling pretty anxious for about a year or two before starting TRT. I will say that I felt really really good for about 4 days after a week on the cream, then everything went sideways & the joint pain and water issues started.

Ray

**zerodarkthirty** · 03-13-2013, 04:06 PM

You are correct about the general correlation between body fat and aromatization. I've heard the same about the creams for some folks. I had the same response with the cream -- it was a very short-lived positive effect.

The joint pain can often be a result of LOW estradiol levels (cracking joints, etc). Are you self-administering the liquidex? Any nip sensitivity? Any other symptoms?

I know nothing about liquidex, but arimidex is very stout brew. Big time. Bazinga. Lights out powerful for a lot of folks. You may have driven your E2 into the dirt. I did, and I thought I was high.

**raym** · 03-13-2013, 04:11 PM

I have not started it taking it yet. Was waiting to get my test results back before I did anything. A level of 34 out of 40 does not seem that extreme, but the symptoms are pretty annoying. I'm mainly getting the joint pain, water retention, libido issues, lack of morning wood, brain fog.

**Rusty11** · 03-13-2013, 05:52 PM

Honestly, the only way you're going to know for sure is to get the sensitive estradiol test. Your test seems to be the regular test. Some say those are accurate enough to get an estimate. Some say they are meaningless.

I don't know where you live, but if your Dr. won't do it, you can get it done yourself thru privatemedlabs. Way back when, my doc did regular estradiol tests. First one came back at 48. Three months later, it was 24. I hadn't taken anything new. This indicated to me that it wasn't very accurate. I Paid for the sensitive test myself and now I know where I really stand. Btw,I'm on a gel and most guys don't need an AI. But as you know, we're all different.

**HRTstudent** · 03-13-2013, 10:59 PM

looks like you did not get the right E2 test, although I can't be certain - I don't know all of them out there.

But, to use arimidex on a gel is simpler than shots because your levels are more stable and diurnal. Having said that, I would start with the lowest possible dose or just .25mg per week. If you wanted to split it up, it would just be a matter of spacing it out evenly. For example, when if I did 1mg per week I would do .5mg Monday morning then the other .5mg Thursday night.

Before I did any of this I would of course talk to my doctor and get the right E2 test. The sensitive assay. It really sounds like you need to find a new doctor though who specializes in male HRT.

**raym** · 03-14-2013, 02:04 PM

Thanks for all the replies. So, my course of action is to get the sensitive estradiol test (hello, privatemdlabs), figure out reasonable adex dosing if necessary, and find a new TRT doctor.

**kelkel** · 03-14-2013, 02:47 PM

Great answers above! Listen up and keep reading and you're on the right path.

Cream twice a day. Once a day is bad enough! You'll be on injections soon I'd bet!

Keep us posted on this thread.

**HRTstudent** · 03-14-2013, 03:26 PM

Cream twice a day. Once a day is bad enough! You'll be on injections soon I'd bet!

lol

It might not be that bad if you were a nudist though...

**raym** · 03-14-2013, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Great answers above! Listen up and keep reading and you're on the right path.

Cream twice a day. Once a day is bad enough! You'll be on injections soon I'd bet!

Keep us posted on this thread.

It's worse than that. The Doc was not happy with my test increase after 4 weeks of cream, so instead of 2 clicks (1/2 mL) on upper arms twice a day, he now has me on two clicks on upper inner thigh in the morning + the morning and evening upper arm site. He said that some of it would rub on my scrotum and give me even more of a test boost. Anyways it was a very interesting experience being spreadeagle on the bathroom floor waiting for this crap to dry.

I'm ready and willing to go the injection route, just this guy does not believe in them. Says they're for bodybuilders only

. His only saving grace is that office visits and bloodwork is covered by insurance. Still paying for the prescriptions out of pocket.

Gotta get off my butt and find a new doctor.

Ray

**HRTstudent** · 03-14-2013, 07:47 PM

injections only for bodybuilders... now that's ignorant.

**kelkel** · 03-14-2013, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by raym

It's worse than that. The Doc was not happy with my test increase after 4 weeks of cream, so instead of 2 clicks (1/2 mL) on upper arms twice a day, he now has me on two clicks on upper inner thigh in the morning + the morning and evening upper arm site. He said that some of it would rub on my scrotum and give me even more of a test boost. Anyways it was a very interesting experience being spreadeagle on the bathroom floor waiting for this crap to dry.

I'm ready and willing to go the injection route, just this guy does not believe in them. Says they're for bodybuilders only

. His only saving grace is that office visits and bloodwork is covered by insurance. Still paying for the prescriptions out of pocket.

Gotta get off my butt and find a new doctor.Ray

Yes. Yes you do. Geez, at least switch to androgel 1.62 as it dries in a minute and it's once a day.

**HRTstudent** · 03-15-2013, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Yes. Yes you do. Geez, at least switch to androgel 1.62 as it dries in a minute and it's once a day.

Androgel was very nice to actually apply compared to Testim, IMO. If I had to go on a transdermal again (pfft!) I would try androgel 1.62 because I could actually put a shirt on quite soon after and not have a sticky mess!

**EverettCD** · 03-15-2013, 05:28 PM

My new Dr prescribed Fortesta. It's night & day better than Axiron. Axiron was like applying WD-40, it took foooorever to dry. The Fortesta dries in a minute or so with no sticky residue.

Sent from my iPhone that was manufactured in a sweat shop in China

**Rusty11** · 03-15-2013, 05:54 PM

Again...we are all different. I put a medical glove on, apply the testim, drink my coffee...15 mins later , put a bit of baby powder on...smooth as silk all day. No sticky, no smell, no big deal. I realize everyone's lifestyle is different.

**BillyBob210** · 03-16-2013, 04:36 PM

Everyone is truly different. I do 2 tubes of Testim daily and run a steady 900 total T everytime. Almost 4 years now. Takes a whole 5 minutes every morning...not difficult. Air out for a while as I drink my coffee and then get dressed. Easy! I cover myself when necessary to avoid transfer. It is not that hard when you are aware of the danger. I also keep it on (12 hours later) during sex with my wife and she is fully aware. The little transfer helps her libido. Win/win.

**Rusty11** · 03-16-2013, 04:50 PM

Right On, bro...

Btw, I was doing two tubes/day 'til I started hcg . Now, I'm at a higher level with 1 1/3- 1 1/2 tubes/day.

**Bonaparte** · 03-16-2013, 07:23 PM

Those are symptoms of low E2 (or just aging).

Your T levels are still real low, so you basically need to double your dose.

Your Estrogen is in range, but only because you aren't getting enough test.

Right now, an AI would not be a good idea. Wait until you get your test levels up higher before thinking about it.

**raym** · 03-27-2013, 10:28 AM

Just a quick update. I got a blood panel from privatemdlabs. Did BW first thing in the morning, but I did apply my T cream since the lab folks said it would not make a difference to the test. Anyways, estradiol came back as 52.9 (HIGH) 7.6 - 42.6, and the other surprise that total T came back as 1192 (348 - 1197). Note that I'd increased my T cream by another two clicks per day about two weeks earlier.

So, looks like I either screwed up the results by applying cream before the test, or that the cream started to kick in. Plus, my e2 is too high.

Ray

**Trific** · 03-27-2013, 10:49 AM

Looks like you will be using some AI, it probably would be nice to see what your test is doing on the next labs with waiting to apply the gel after the lab...I'd probably keep taking the amount of test you've been doing lately with the increased clicks.

It's nice to know what your E2 is really doing...hopefully you won't take too much AI now and crush E2 too low because that would make you feel bad too.