Scally and Crisler posts removed from sticky

[Video Vic]

Dr Scally says that anyone who uses HCG every day is an idiot who doesn't understand how HCG works. What do you have to say about that gdevine?

[2Sox]

Dr Scally says that anyone who uses HCG every day is an idiot who doesn't understand how HCG works. What do you have to say about that gdevine?

Please cite the reference source for your statement so that we can see the context in which it was used. Thanks.

[AnabolicDoc]

Dr Scally says that anyone who uses HCG every day is an idiot who doesn't understand how HCG works. What do you have to say about that gdevine?

I saw that same comment that Scally made on Meso Rx, where Scally and Crisler are both members but Scally is much more active - they really go at it sometimes as they disagree on a lot.

Either way, Scally makes a good point too. The take home is that this is not an exact science bc of the lack of studies, and there is room for variation. I like Scally's beliefs, but he is harsh in his comments. Just like you Video Vic, why the hostility to GD? It's ok to not agree but we all try to be respectful here at least.

GD is a fan of Crisler's. Scally disagrees with a lot of Crisler's beliefs and theories and vice versa. So it's not surprising that you found a post from Scally that contradicts GD. No one has all the answers. You take bits and pieces from everyone and come to your own conclusions until the medical community gets its act together and starts doing randomized controlled trials on this stuff.

[2Sox]

ADoc,

"why the hostility to GD? It's ok to not agree but we all try to be respectful here at least."

I second that.

Can you send a link or cut and paste Scally's reference so we can take a look at it? Thanks.

[AnabolicDoc]

I'm pretty sure I bookmarked the page so when I get to my PC I'll post it. But those actually were Scally's exact words. But you have to understand, that was a comment probably indirectly meant for Crisler. Scally seems to really have it out for him.

[AnabolicDoc]

In response to:
"Dr Crisler has said that he thinks the best TRT protocol is daily T gel application and 100iu HCG daily. For those that require HCG, do you think something like 250iu twice a week would be best?"

Dr. Scally responded:
"I am not trying to avoid your question. And, I think it is important to understand what is the purpose of the hCG. The purposes are: (1) testosterone, (2) Spermatogenesis, (3) Testes volume (TV), (4) Extragonadal, (5) "Backfilling." IIRC, (4) & (5) are promoted by some, which is no more than BS. Are there other purposes?

And, this is separate from the idiotic idea of daily hCG use. And, it is as stupid as stupid gets. Can anyone point me to any clinical study where there is daily hCG use? There are 1000s of hCG studies. Point me to ONE (1). If someone wishes to inject themselves daily, go ahead, but know why it is done."

http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-...tml#post871270

The excerpt I posted is from page 3 of the thread, although there are many posts, to a similar effect, by Dr. Scally on that page and throughout the entire thread. He explains that for men who have primary hypogonadism (which he says is roughly 50%), that there is little to no purpose for hcg. In another thread (and maybe this one too) he talks about extra-gonadal LH/HCG receptors or rather the lack of evidence for their existence. Here is that excerpt and link:

In response to:

"Ok so rather than daily HCG, in your opinion (for those who require it during TRT), what is the best way of implementing it? 250iu twice a week perhaps?"

Dr. Scally replied:

"I am not being difficult, but first one must decide what is the purpose of the hCG. Following is some info on Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R].

There have been some statements that there exists Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R], particularly within the Central Nervous System (CNS), that are functionally significant. Moreover, they use these statements as reasoning for the use of human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) within Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). Not surprisingly, these practitioners provide no evidence foe these claims. [IIRC, they point to a possible short feedback loop as evidence, which is unproven. If this is the evidence for its use, then any drug is okay for just about anything! pros/cons of HCG with TRT? ]

In a 2007 review, the authors’ concluded, “further evidence is needed before the extragonadal LH/hCG-R expression can be considered functionally significant.” In a recent communication a study author stated, “Further information is accumulating, but I would still stick to our old original conclusion. You can find recent publication on LHR expression in the uterus, but I am still not convinced about their functional significance.

There is NO, NADA, ZIP, ZERO evidence for functional Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R] within the CNS and more especially in males.


Pakarainen T, Ahtiainen P, Zhang F-P, Rulli S, Poutanen M, Huhtaniemi I. Extragonadal LH/hCG action—Not yet time to rewrite textbooks. Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 2007;269(1-2):9-16. ScienceDirect.com - Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology - Extragonadal LH/hCG action—Not yet time to rewrite textbooks

Gonadotropins are indispensable in both sexes in the regulation of gonadal sex steroid production and gametogenesis. In addition to their well-established classical actions, numerous recent publications have indicated the presence and function of luteinizing hormone/chorionic gonadotropin receptors (LH/hCG-R) in a variety of extragonadal tissues. However, the physiological significance of such effects has remained unclear. We have generated two genetically modified mouse models, one with excessive production of hCG and the other with targeted disruption of LH/hCG-R gene, and used them to address the functions of LH and hCG. Numerous gonadal and extragonadal phenotypes were found in the models with the two extremes of LH/hCG action. However, when the extragonadal effects were scrutinized in greater detail, they all appeared to arise through modification of gonadal function, either through enhanced or inhibited response to LH/hCG stimulation. Hence, further evidence is needed before the extragonadal LH/hCG-R expression can be considered functionally significant."

http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-...tml#post871289

page 4 of the thread

2Sox, please PM me in the future in regards to links to other forums. I think it's bad etiquette to go on one steroid/TRT forum and post a link to another. I may have done this in the past, but it was without any forethought. If you PM me, I will gladly respond. Please understand that my tone here is only of kindness, wanting to help, and appreciation to our present forum and not meant to condemn you at all.

[2Sox]

2Sox, please PM me in the future in regards to links to other forums. I think it's bad etiquette to go on one steroid/TRT forum and post a link to another.

Absolutely. I agree. My only small issue with VideoVic was that a statement was made without a source reference. Simple matter to simply state something like, "If anyone is interested in my source, please PM me and I will respond with a link." OR just include the entire quote with a footnote.

And thanks for the above. Very interesting reading. It's good to get varying viewpoints.

IMO, it's very important that if we are to make statements, it's an absolute MUST to back it up with facts. Otherwise it's just forum gossip and we are perpetuating myths or passing along false information - which, need I say, will hurt all of us in the long run.

[Video Vic]

ADoc,

"why the hostility to GD? It's ok to not agree but we all try to be respectful here at least."

I second that.

Can you send a link or cut and paste Scally's reference so we can take a look at it? Thanks.

Gosh i'm not being hostile to GD. I was stating that Dr Scally said that men who take HCG daily are idiots.
I read through a good debate on the site that Scally posts on regarding why HCG should not be administered frequently. He posted a bunch of studies and basically no one was able to refute him. GD has so far not commented on that...

[2Sox]

Dr. Scally responded:
"I am not trying to avoid your question. And, I think it is important to understand what is the purpose of the hCG. The purposes are: (1) testosterone, (2) Spermatogenesis, (3) Testes volume (TV), (4) Extragonadal, (5) "Backfilling." IIRC, (4) & (5) are promoted by some, which is no more than BS. Are there other purposes?

Something that I have observed on this forum and others is exactly what Dr. Scally is doing here: He is making grand statements, not explaining what he means (for those less informed) and NOT backing up what he says with facts.

And, this is separate from the idiotic idea of daily hCG use. And, it is as stupid as stupid gets. Can anyone point me to any clinical study where there is daily hCG use? There are 1000s of hCG studies. Point me to ONE (1). If someone wishes to inject themselves daily, go ahead, but know why it is done."

WHY is it stupid? Where is the explanation? Again, why is it that the good doctor cannot cite one or two of those THOUSANDS of studies for our edification? Please explain what you mean, doctor. Why do you think it (daily injection) IS done?

http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-...tml#post871270

The excerpt I posted is from page 3 of the thread, although there are many posts, to a similar effect, by Dr. Scally on that page and throughout the entire thread. He explains that for men who have primary hypogonadism (which he says is roughly 50%), that there is little to no purpose for hcg. In another thread (and maybe this one too) he talks about extra-gonadal LH/HCG receptors or rather the lack of evidence for their existence. Here is that excerpt and link:

In response to:

"Ok so rather than daily HCG, in your opinion (for those who require it during TRT), what is the best way of implementing it? 250iu twice a week perhaps?"

Dr. Scally replied:

"I am not being difficult, but first one must decide what is the purpose of the hCG. Following is some info on Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R].

There have been some statements that there exists Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R], particularly within the Central Nervous System (CNS), that are functionally significant. Moreover, they use these statements as reasoning for the use of human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) within Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). Not surprisingly, these practitioners provide no evidence foe these claims. [IIRC, they point to a possible short feedback loop as evidence, which is unproven. If this is the evidence for its use, then any drug is okay for just about anything! pros/cons of HCG with TRT? ]

No explanation again.

In a 2007 review, the authors’ concluded, “further evidence is needed before the extragonadal LH/hCG-R expression can be considered functionally significant.” In a recent communication a study author stated, “Further information is accumulating, but I would still stick to our old original conclusion. You can find recent publication on LHR expression in the uterus, but I am still not convinced about their functional significance.

What "review" and what "communication"? If we can "find [a] recent publication on LHR expression", show the reader where and how to find it.

There is NO, NADA, ZIP, ZERO evidence for functional Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R] within the CNS and more especially in males.

Now if this is true, then people on this forum and others should either stop saying this or should prove otherwise - cite evidence that Dr Scally is wrong. This is an opportunity for the knowledgeable members of the forum to show their stuff.


Pakarainen T, Ahtiainen P, Zhang F-P, Rulli S, Poutanen M, Huhtaniemi I. Extragonadal LH/hCG action—Not yet time to rewrite textbooks. Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 2007;269(1-2):9-16. ScienceDirect.com - Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology - Extragonadal LH/hCG action—Not yet time to rewrite textbooks

I don't know what the f_ _k he's talking about here.

Gonadotropins are indispensable in both sexes in the regulation of gonadal sex steroid production and gametogenesis. In addition to their well-established classical actions, numerous recent publications have indicated the presence and function of luteinizing hormone/chorionic gonadotropin receptors (LH/hCG-R) in a variety of extragonadal tissues. However, the physiological significance of such effects has remained unclear.

Again, cite references and give the proof.

We have generated two genetically modified mouse models, one with excessive production of hCG and the other with targeted disruption of LH/hCG-R gene, and used them to address the functions of LH and hCG. Numerous gonadal and extragonadal phenotypes were found in the models with the two extremes of LH/hCG action. However, when the extragonadal effects were scrutinized in greater detail, they all appeared to arise through modification of gonadal function, either through enhanced or inhibited response to LH/hCG stimulation. Hence, further evidence is needed before the extragonadal LH/hCG-R expression can be considered functionally significant."

I'll definitely need someone to translate this for me.

http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-...tml#post871289

page 4 of the thread

I guess the point I'm trying to make is what all of us already know; this forum is an important place for knowledge. Many of us have found it completely by accident and it has literally saved our bodies - and minds. At the risk of being preachy, I feel it's absolutely crucial that facts be respected and statements not be thrown around irresponsibly. And I take this very much to myself.

Edit: There is something else I need to say. Whenever a teacher or a so called "authority" - including a doctor - uses technical terms without some sort of explanation to his audience, there are only two reasons for it; either to look important and show off - they want to "own" the knowledge, or hide his own lack of knowledge. There is a third: To manipulate facts for his own agenda. Take this from a 30 year veteran teacher who had done this early on in his career - and seen it in countless others. So if this applies to anyone on this forum, admit it to yourself and change. It doesn't do any of us any good.

[steroid.com 1]

Dr Scally says that anyone who uses HCG every day is an idiot who doesn't understand how HCG works. What do you have to say about that gdevine?

I tend to go along with Licensed Medical Specialists who see patients on a day-in-day-out continuous basis and who see first hand the results (subjective or otherwise) from their protocols.

Dr. Crisler is literally in the care of thousands of men nationwide and his findings are what they are; I tend to believe in those types of clinicians.

Don't get me wrong, I like Dr. Scally a lot and we correspond somewhat regularly and I believe him to be at the top of his game as well; but what Dr. Crisler does every day and what Dr. Scally does every day are two entirely different things when it comes to directly treating men who are Hypogonadal or otherwise.

I consulted my TRT Specialist on daily low doses of HCG and he said there are likely no studies to support any injection protocol for TRT utilization but that daily low doses makes sense from a "common sense" perspective as it mimics more of how our bodies function...sort of like daily TD use. His biggest concern is patient compliance and being able to stay consistent on a protocol like that; he said it's hard enough sometimes to get men to remember to inject Test weekly LOL!

BTW, I think anyone calling Dr. Crisler "an idiot" on this front just has an axe to grind, Vic. It's been no secret for some time now that these two men despise one another.

[VTX1800]

[QUOTE=Video Vic;6483289]Gosh i'm not being hostile to GD. I was stating that Dr Scally said that men who take HCG daily are idiots.
I read through a good debate on the site that Scally posts on regarding why HCG should not be administered frequently. He posted a bunch of studies and basically no one was able to refute him. GD has so far not commented on that...[/

Looks like you plain and simply called GD out. All I can say is ^^^ this was an awesome read, good find.

[jwws9999]

sounds like a bunch of drama, who needs it

[nyjetsfan]

I tend to go along with Licensed Medical Specialists who see patients on a day-in-day-out continuous basis and who see first hand the results (subjective or otherwise) from their protocols.

Dr. Crisler is literally in the care of thousands of men nationwide and his findings are what they are; I tend to believe in those types of clinicians.

Don't get me wrong, I like Dr. Scally a lot and we correspond somewhat regularly and I believe him to be at the top of his game as well; but what Dr. Crisler does every day and what Dr. Scally does every day are two entirely different things when it comes to directly treating men who are Hypogonadal or otherwise.

I consulted my TRT Specialist on daily low doses of HCG and he said there are likely no studies to support any injection protocol for TRT utilization but that daily low doses makes sense from a "common sense" perspective as it mimics more of how our bodies function...sort of like daily TD use. His biggest concern is patient compliance and being able to stay consistent on a protocol like that; he said it's hard enough sometimes to get men to remember to inject Test weekly LOL!

BTW, I think anyone calling Dr. Crisler "an idiot" on this front just has an axe to grind, Vic. It's been no secret for some time now that these two men despise one another.

Don't know too much about Scally but I would find it hard to follow a "professionals" opinion that calls others "idiots" or "stupid". If the The testes are the single largest producer of the hormone pregnenolone (important for proper mental functioning, and is the precursor to all of the steroid hormones such as DHEA, testosterone, DHT, estrogen, cortisol) ill take my chances with hcg on trt 3 times a week.

[Moparman]

My doc says 250 iu eod so that's what I do.

[system admin]

From my understanding its NOT an exact science and there is no by the book protocol for people. It requires blood work and for the patient to have good communication with his doctor to discuss how he is feeling. I personally am no expert in this, but the people around me have never said a daily or even an every other daily injection of HCG is recommended. I have also heard that taking too much HCG on a regular basis can REALLY mess up your body and cause your brain to stop communicating with your testes if not careful.

One thing is for sure, when I take HCG 2 times a week (800mg a week) I feel SO much better and my sex drives wakes up like I was a teenager. But that may not be good for someone else.

I would be very careful before taking this drug often unless you have someone around you who knows what they are doing and you have blood tests frequently. Remember, its not about whos idea is wrong or whos idea is right.... its about education, trial and error, and input from MANY different perspectives so that this medicine is more and more understood.

[junk2222yard]

Scally and Crisler posts removed from sticky

Huh? I don't see how the title of this thread matches with the discussion? Was "Scally and Crisler posts removed from sticky" as a title changed after the thread was started? I don't get the context? What sticky? Where?

[powerlifterty16]

Absolutely. I agree. My only small issue with VideoVic was that a statement was made without a source reference. Simple matter to simply state something like, "If anyone is interested in my source, please PM me and I will respond with a link." OR just include the entire quote with a footnote.

And thanks for the above. Very interesting reading. It's good to get varying viewpoints.

IMO, it's very important that if we are to make statements, it's an absolute MUST to back it up with facts. Otherwise it's just forum gossip and we are perpetuating myths or passing along false information - which, need I say, will hurt all of us in the long run.

anabolicdoc you just posted links from mesorx am i missing something here? I'm confused on what sox did differently

[HRTstudent]

If someone were to always rely on the science and the leading medical professionals... then who is ever going to find anything new?...

As mentioned above, a guy like Dr. Crisler sees many many patients and has a lot of first hand, real world experience where it counts. His opinions cannot be discounted, but they also should not be taken as gospel. People vary. Find what works for you.

[steroid.com 1]

[QUOTE=VTX1800;6484097]

Gosh i'm not being hostile to GD. I was stating that Dr Scally said that men who take HCG daily are idiots.
I read through a good debate on the site that Scally posts on regarding why HCG should not be administered frequently. He posted a bunch of studies and basically no one was able to refute him. GD has so far not commented on that...[/

Looks like you plain and simply called GD out. All I can say is ^^^ this was an awesome read, good find.

You must know that this is a shot at Crisler and nothing more. No one can produce any studies re best practices for HCG injection protocols for men on TRT.

There's a war between these two so know that and take that into consideration when you read their posts.

[kelkel]

[QUOTE=gdevine;6484997]

You must know that this is a shot at Crisler and nothing more. No one can produce any studies re best practices for HCG injection protocols for men on TRT.

There's a war between these two so know that and take that into consideration when you read their posts.

In bold above about sums it up. I look at it this way. HCG has a half-life. If I don't have to inject something every day then thank god for that! Whether I'd be subjectively "better" doing so would be up to personal experimentation. Both Doc C and Scally bring important points to the forefront. Until science definitively answers the question choose your own path in conjunction with your doctor.

[jasondd1]

For now i am trying 350iu hcg the day after my twice a week 75 mg test cyp injection. Is there a better way?

[system admin]

I like HCG injections on the 5th and 6th day.

Hey, the more people like Dr. C and Scally get into heated debates, the more we all benefit from it. This will give motivation to get more answers. I love it and lets face it, top dogs will always fight with each other to prove who is the bigger dog. We all win in the long run

[Juced_porkchop]

DR.Scally is an ideot with a BIG ego and not much common sense.
I make a few informative posts on meso and he (i guess) got his ego worried and acted like a complete child trying to make me look like a tool but ended up making himself look like the ideot, I havent botherd to post again, miller (owner) even agreed it was a bit much. scally has studies comming out the ass... thats great... but he doesnt have the sense to tie them into our community.
attacking em on pointsed base don exp AND research.
scally has ALOT of research but no exp in many things.

one example he tried ot bash me in, my letro dose of 0-25-0.6mg eod -e3d. he tried to make me look stupid by stating i am wrong because studies say to use 2.5mg ed?!?!?!

or that a serm is better for gyno control/prevention then an AI?!?!

on meso my accoutn name is just "juced" look at my last 4 threads and see how much of a fool scally is! i COULD NOT belive his ignorance! I used to think he knew alot, but he doesnt grasp alot of what he thinks he does.

here are a few links, i hope this is not against rules, i am NOT promoting him or the site, i think scall yis a joke and actually pity him now.

some examples of his ignorance:

1) http://thinksteroids.com/forum/stero...134335511.html
2)http://thinksteroids.com/forum/stero...134335334.html
3)http://thinksteroids.com/forum/stero...134335333.html
4)http://thinksteroids.com/forum/stero...134335397.html
* i wont post again to him because im a better man and its his loss to the forum*

Mind you im up for debate and DONT know everything, his attacks were no debate, just him fortifying himself being right to protect his ego. but i know i can peace together information understanding that studies many times DONT translate to our uses (eg anadrol for aid patients giving it for 6+ months at 100-150mg ed.... we would ofcourse not tell people to run orals that long, one of many examples)
I cant STAND scally now, since i have had my eyes open by his ignorance.
few good points yes.
but he is merely someone that lives in his on little world up top his throne.... pretty sad really.

[nyjetsfan]

Wow, just wow. One thing I hate is a bully. Whats great about this site is the guys here are grown ups that really want to help and don't flame. You won't see me on his site for sure lol

[powerlifterty16]

mesorx is a joke. scally, dr jim, and idmd are the worst. I am not a fan of crisler either...he is a douschebag. I only come here for now on to be honest.

[system admin]

Scally and I were "friends" and have met several times in the past, but his behavior toward me at one point was a bit crazy and he had a really bad attitude. We have not spoke since then. I am not sure about Scally, but that is just my own personal feeling. I still think its good for guys like him to be around, but I dont like him for personal reasons.

mesorx (thinksteroids.com) and Millard (the owner) is a great place to go for some good information. Its just a different steroid website. I do know that Scally runs around over there and is friends with Millard.

[Ryanmcd]

mesorx is a joke. scally, dr jim, and idmd are the worst. I am not a fan of crisler either...he is a douschebag. I only come here for now on to be honest.

Crisler is a douschebag I agree and he was my doc but once you get it nailed down you don't need them anymore because nothing really changes. I remember one time when I had to do a follow up call he did not even know if I ever went to his office before and this was my 4-5th call, he always seems like he's out of it on the phone and I think he works too much, but then that 50+ page thread about his personal shit he posts daily about "war on men" how he beat his wife or whatever kinda dropped his quality to me.

[powerlifterty16]

this may sound narrow minded, but i've always prefferred to go to an american educated MD, as oppose to a do or car. md. For 600 dollars a visit that's my preference. It's not that I feel that the do and md schools differ much in educational curriculum, it's just, why couldnt he get into the md school?

Aside from that, crisler has been arrested in the past for beating his wife, and also his patient consent form is ridiculous..you sign away all of your rights. He also makes you use his pharmacy, or pay 15 percent to use another. Guy is a greedy bastard lol.
If I ever need an expert i have shippen here. I've heard sketchy things about him too, but if ever win the lotto i could try him out LOL.

Crisler is a douschebag I agree and he was my doc but once you get it nailed down you don't need them anymore because nothing really changes. I remember one time when I had to do a follow up call he did not even know if I ever went to his office before and this was my 4-5th call, he always seems like he's out of it on the phone and I think he works too much, but then that 50+ page thread about his personal shit he posts daily about "war on men" how he beat his wife or whatever kinda dropped his quality to me.

[powerlifterty16]

I can't imagine how hard it is to contact crisler. hahahha

Crisler is a douschebag I agree and he was my doc but once you get it nailed down you don't need them anymore because nothing really changes. I remember one time when I had to do a follow up call he did not even know if I ever went to his office before and this was my 4-5th call, he always seems like he's out of it on the phone and I think he works too much, but then that 50+ page thread about his personal shit he posts daily about "war on men" how he beat his wife or whatever kinda dropped his quality to me.