Risks of trt

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 04:28 PM

So I been studying and talking to mike lowt, and have learned quite a bit. Some I understand some I don't. My t is low, I'm 45 so learning and debating with the wife to make an informative decision. My ? Is are there long term risks? How about life length expectations, does it lengthen it or shorten it?

**64509chvl** · 05-19-2013, 05:05 PM

I'm 37 with low t...gettin started with trt right now. Prolly not an answer you're lookin for, but I think the only risk you'd really be taking is not being treated & living a stressful, down, low drive/motivating life! As far as affecting the duration of your life goes...prolly prolong it from feeling/being healthy?!

**bass** · 05-19-2013, 05:30 PM

There was a study done and found that most men who died from heart attack had one thing in common, low T. I believe man's health depends on balanced hormones. Remember, the biggest killer for men and women is stress, unbalanced hormones can drive people into depression, so you have a choice, live miserably and still die young or live a better life and take the chance. Did you know that ibuprofen is far deadlier than testosterone ?

**powerlifterty16** · 05-19-2013, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by bass

There was a study done and found that most men who died from heart attack had one thing in common, low T. I believe man's health depends on balanced hormones. Remember, the biggest killer for men and women is stress, unbalanced hormones can drive people into depression, so you have a choice, live miserably and still die young or live a better life and take the chance. Did you know that ibuprofen is far deadlier than testosterone?

what does balanced hormones mean? my tt is 339 and estro is 10..so technically shouldnt i be at low risk for heart attacks since my t to e ratio is optimal?

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 06:28 PM

[QUOTE="bass"]There was a study done and found that most men who died from heart attack had one thing in common, low T. I believe man's health depends on balanced hormones. Remember, the biggest killer for men and women is stress, unbalanced hormones can drive people into depression, so you have a choice, live miserably and still die young or live a better life and take the chance. Did you know that ibuprofen is far deadlier than testosterone ?[/QUOTE. Yes, I know that a lot of medications we use even OTC can be deadly if not used properly. Tylenol is one of the most abused medicine and causes a lot deaths. I used to pop 4-5 at a time when I was young, I was very lucky.

**trikydik** · 05-19-2013, 06:34 PM

I used to pop 4-5 at a time when I was young, I was very lucky.

- I am very surprised you have a liver left.....

I was going to suggest antibiotics (which have massively been over prescribed) are more dangerous than TRT...

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 06:42 PM

Well I suffer from severe headaches which run in the family so when I was young I didn't know no different. So yes I'm surprised to, but thankfully I learned before it was to late.

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 06:43 PM

Ok I'm getting the message, it could be more risky not going on TRT. Keep it coming!

**64509chvl** · 05-19-2013, 07:16 PM

I just don't get the "risk", lol! What's really "risky" about it?! Only real risks that I can see is going through a primary care doctor for insurance coverage reasons of which doesn't know much about TRT...having to deal with that sort of thing is maybe risky. Thing that was a little risky to me was the fact of being a life long commitment & paying out of pocket/able to afford a couple hundred a month for the rest of my life! My wife & I figured we can make that happen though. As far as health risks...I just don't see anything there, unless u already have cancer/tumor or whatever & the TRT will just speed it up?! Other than that under a good physician/doctor it should be a smooth ride...that's what we're payin for

!

**2Sox** · 05-19-2013, 07:33 PM

If you have the symptoms of low T or the numbers that show it, the only risk is not being completely educated on what TRT is before you begin. It's been said many times on this forum: TRT is for life. Yes, you can change your mind and stop, but a person would be very debilitated for some months before getting back to where he was before he began. It's my understanding that getting back to that point doesn't always happen. But the question is, if you have low T and your quality of life is suffering, why WOULDN'T you want to go on TRT? Everything gets better - cognition, energy, sex life, heart health, bone density, muscle mass - and the list goes on.

I wasted fifteen years before I began on TRT last July at the age of 65. My baseline was 240 total when I began. But fifteen years ago, I believed my doctors who said I was in the "normal" range. Walked out and thought my symptoms were in my head. The Internet was different fifteen years ago and I wasn't able to get the information that's available today. Being on TRT makes me feel as if I'm back feeling like 40. Then I was running 35 miles a week and weighed in at 143 lbs. Now I walk three miles a day and weigh in at 150. Feeling great!

Do your homework. This is the only way you can make an informed decision. There are a couple books you can read as primers. "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Dr. Eugene Shippen and Testosterone Deficiency: The Hidden Disease, by Dr. E. Barry Gordon. Both are over ten years old but the information on the main subject - testosterone's effect on the body - in my opinion, is sound. You may want to pick up Nelson Vergel's book as well, "Testosterone: A Man's Guide." Abraham Morgenthaller's also: "Testosterone for Life.

This forum is an invaluable source from which to learn. Stick with it.

**powerlifterty16** · 05-19-2013, 07:37 PM

dr gordon looks good on paper..but was a total quack when isaw him

**Metalject** · 05-19-2013, 07:41 PM

Men who suffer from low testosterone are at a much greater risk for:

*Osteoporosis
*Heart Disease
*Alzheimers Disease
*Diabetes

This doesn't mean those things won't happen if you don't suffer from low testosterone but the odds are in your favor when testosterone levels remain optimal. In my opinion the benefits of TRT based on the above far outweighs any risk.

**2Sox** · 05-19-2013, 07:42 PM

Powerlifter,

His usual protocol is very questionable, but his office is coming around to a new way of thinking. My wife receives HRT there. Many of his patients are getting weekly injections at the doses discussed on this forum and many self pin at home. He's got a long way to go in other regards, but this in itself is VERY good news. He is probably the only doctor I know of in the NYC area who accepts all insurance for TRT - including Medicare. But let's get back to the main subject......

**powerlifterty16** · 05-19-2013, 07:47 PM

2sox im glad you are having a good experience with him....but my medicaid urologist is better than gordon...so i disagree.

**bass** · 05-19-2013, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by powerlifterty16

what does balanced hormones mean? my tt is 339 and estro is 10..so technically shouldnt i be at low risk for heart attacks since my t to e ratio is optimal?

Meaning all your hormones are in optimal range.

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by 64509chvl

I just don't get the "risk", lol! What's really "risky" about it?! Only real risks that I can see is going through a primary care doctor for insurance coverage reasons of which doesn't know much about TRT...having to deal with that sort of thing is maybe risky. Thing that was a little risky to me was the fact of being a life long commitment & paying out of pocket/able to afford a couple hundred a month for the rest of my life! My wife & I figured we can make that happen though. As far as health risks...I just don't see anything there, unless u already have cancer/tumor or whatever & the TRT will just speed it up?! Other than that under a good physician/doctor it should be a smooth ride...that's what we're payin for

!

That's why I'm asking, lol I don't know so I'm trying to learn to make an informed decision. Lord knows if I did everything drs tell me I couldn't live life. DRs are human too and make mistakes like the rest of us. I'm educating before medicating.

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

If you have the symptoms of low T or the numbers that show it, the only risk is not being completely educated on what TRT is before you begin. It's been said many times on this forum: TRT is for life. Yes, you can change your mind and stop, but a person would be very debilitated for some months before getting back to where he was before he began. It's my understanding that getting back to that point doesn't always happen. But the question is, if you have low T and your quality of life is suffering, why WOULDN'T you want to go on TRT? Everything gets better - cognition, energy, sex life, heart health, bone density, muscle mass - and the list goes on.

I wasted fifteen years before I began on TRT last July at the age of 65. My baseline was 240 total when I began. But fifteen years ago, I believed my doctors who said I was in the "normal" range. Walked out and thought my symptoms were in my head. The Internet was different fifteen years ago and I wasn't able to get the information that's available today. Being on TRT makes me feel as if I'm back feeling like 40. Then I was running 35 miles a week and weighed in at 143 lbs. Now I walk three miles a day and weigh in at 150. Feeling great!

Do your homework. This is the only way you can make an informed decision. There are a couple books you can read as primers. "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Dr. Eugene Shippen and Testosterone Deficiency: The Hidden Disease, by Dr. E. Barry Gordon. Both are over ten years old but the information on the main subject - testosterone's effect on the body - in my opinion, is sound. You may want to pick up Nelson Vergel's book as well, "Testosterone: A Man's Guide." Abraham Morgenthaller's also: "Testosterone for Life.

This forum is an invaluable source from which to learn. Stick with it.

Thanks 2sox, ill check that book out. I was asking cause I don't know and knew there is plenty of ex here.

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 08:40 PM

Thanks for the replies, I think I'm getting it. I was worried about fertility and mike set me straight on that and you guys are easing my mind and doubts. Thanks ?

**FRDave** · 05-19-2013, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by ppwc1985

Thanks for the replies, I think I'm getting it. I was worried about fertility and mike set me straight on that and you guys are easing my mind and doubts. Thanks ?

Fertility is the only risk I came across before starting TRT and is probably the biggest worry for the majority of us. With this in mind, I'm curious as to what Mike told you to ease your mind.

**64509chvl** · 05-19-2013, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by ppwc1985

That's why I'm asking, lol I don't know so I'm trying to learn to make an informed decision. Lord knows if I did everything drs tell me I couldn't live life. DRs are human too and make mistakes like the rest of us. I'm educating before medicating.

No doubt...I completely understand bud! Last few weeks I've been reading/searching till my eyes were bleeding, lol! Was pretty skeptical at first...I gotta say though, once I actually registered on here & actually started a couple threads, asked a few questions on my situation & got more involved realizing I'm not all alone on this, I felt alot better on making a good decision! Once u understand the majority of it which won't take long, if you're truly low for your age, it all comes down to one thing...u live with the shitty symptoms always wondering if u should have done TRT...ordo TRT & enjoy life with all the benefits it presents! That's my thought

**kelkel** · 05-19-2013, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

If you have the symptoms of low T or the numbers that show it, the only risk is not being completely educated on what TRT is before you begin. It's been said many times on this forum: TRT is for life. Yes, you can change your mind and stop, but a person would be very debilitated for some months before getting back to where he was before he began. It's my understanding that getting back to that point doesn't always happen. But the question is, if you have low T and your quality of life is suffering, why WOULDN'T you want to go on TRT? Everything gets better - cognition, energy, sex life, heart health, bone density, muscle mass - and the list goes on.

I wasted fifteen years before I began on TRT last July at the age of 65. My baseline was 240 total when I began. But fifteen years ago, I believed my doctors who said I was in the "normal" range. Walked out and thought my symptoms were in my head. The Internet was different fifteen years ago and I wasn't able to get the information that's available today. Being on TRT makes me feel as if I'm back feeling like 40. Then I was running 35 miles a week and weighed in at 143 lbs. Now I walk three miles a day and weigh in at 150. Feeling great!

Do your homework. This is the only way you can make an informed decision. There are a couple books you can read as primers. "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Dr. Eugene Shippen and Testosterone Deficiency: The Hidden Disease, by Dr. E. Barry Gordon. Both are over ten years old but the information on the main subject - testosterone's effect on the body - in my opinion, is sound. You may want to pick up Nelson Vergel's book as well, "Testosterone: A Man's Guide." Abraham Morgenthaller's also: "Testosterone for Life.

This forum is an invaluable source from which to learn. Stick with it.

Very well said 2sox!

**ppwc1985** · 05-19-2013, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by FRDave

Fertility is the only risk I came across before starting TRT and is probably the biggest worry for the majority of us. With this in mind, I'm curious as to what Mike told you to ease your mind.

He told me that's what Hcg is for.

**Keep_It_Moving** · 05-19-2013, 11:30 PM

I've read Nelson Vergel's book and it's definitely a good beginner book to the world of TRT. It had excerpts of his own experience in there which is interesting as well.

Originally Posted by 2Sox

If you have the symptoms of low T or the numbers that show it, the only risk is not being completely educated on what TRT is before you begin. It's been said many times on this forum: TRT is for life. Yes, you can change your mind and stop, but a person would be very debilitated for some months before getting back to where he was before he began. It's my understanding that getting back to that point doesn't always happen. But the question is, if you have low T and your quality of life is suffering, why WOULDN'T you want to go on TRT? Everything gets better - cognition, energy, sex life, heart health, bone density, muscle mass - and the list goes on.

I wasted fifteen years before I began on TRT last July at the age of 65. My baseline was 240 total when I began. But fifteen years ago, I believed my doctors who said I was in the "normal" range. Walked out and thought my symptoms were in my head. The Internet was different fifteen years ago and I wasn't able to get the information that's available today. Being on TRT makes me feel as if I'm back feeling like 40. Then I was running 35 miles a week and weighed in at 143 lbs. Now I walk three miles a day and weigh in at 150. Feeling great!

Do your homework. This is the only way you can make an informed decision. There are a couple books you can read as primers. "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Dr. Eugene Shippen and Testosterone Deficiency: The Hidden Disease, by Dr. E. Barry Gordon. Both are over ten years old but the information on the main subject - testosterone's effect on the body - in my opinion, is sound. You may want to pick up Nelson Vergel's book as well, "Testosterone: A Man's Guide." Abraham Morgenthaller's also: "Testosterone for Life.

This forum is an invaluable source from which to learn. Stick with it.

**APIs** · 05-20-2013, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by bass

There was a study done and found that most men who died from heart attack had one thing in common, low T. I believe man's health depends on balanced hormones. Remember, the biggest killer for men and women is stress, unbalanced hormones can drive people into depression, so you have a choice, live miserably and still die young or live a better life and take the chance. Did you know that ibuprofen is far deadlier than testosterone?

I remember seeing the study Bass mentions. I believe someone posted it here awhile back. IMO, living an unhealthy life style combined with poor physical fitness puts one at greater risk than TRT ever could by itself. Never mind the "possible" risks involved, most here will tell you that TRT (combined with the proper Medical Care) has truly enhanced their lives. Personally I can't imagine having to live pre-TRT again...

**bass** · 05-20-2013, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by APIs

I remember seeing the study Bass mentions. I believe someone posted it here awhile back. IMO, living an unhealthy life style combined with poor physical fitness puts one at greater risk than TRT ever could by itself. Never mind the "possible" risks involved, most here will tell you that TRT (combined with the proper Medical Care) has truly enhanced their lives. Personally I can't imagine having to live pre-TRT again...

i'm one of them.

**Rusty11** · 05-20-2013, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by APIs

I remember seeing the study Bass mentions. I believe someone posted it here awhile back. IMO, living an unhealthy life style combined with poor physical fitness puts one at greater risk than TRT ever could by itself. Never mind the "possible" risks involved, most here will tell you that TRT (combined with the proper Medical Care) has truly enhanced their lives. Personally I can't imagine having to live pre-TRT again...

Great post, APIs!

**powerlifterty16** · 05-20-2013, 07:03 PM

one risk is going bald...which scares me as i have nice hair

**2Sox** · 05-20-2013, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by powerlifterty16

one risk is going bald...which scares me as i have nice hair

Minoxidil.. It works. (a.k.a. Rogaine)

**Rusty11** · 05-20-2013, 09:45 PM

I was looking for something else and came across this..A Harvard expert shares his thoughts on testosterone-replacement therapy - Harvard Health Publications

Half way down, it talks about risks. Sorry, on my phone and don't know how to cut/paste the info that's pertinent to this thread.

**APIs** · 05-21-2013, 07:18 AM

^^Dated 2009, but still very interesting. Especially one of the last paragraphs:

"I think we’ll also find out in five years that there very well may be general health benefits of having normal testosterone compared to low testosterone . There are growing data for all-cause mortality that men who have low testosterone die earlier than those who have normal testosterone. A study by the Veterans Administration reported about a year ago showed low testosterone levels were associated with a dramatically increased mortality rate. It’s hard to know why that is, but I think we’ll be focused on that in the coming years."

What amazes me though is the guy is a Harvard Doc and still listed Testosterone Cypionate being administered every 2-4 weeks as a viable regimen for TRT, not to mention in-office injections too! You'd think this guy over anyone else would understand half-life of the drugs he administers to patients. Simply amazing...

**Rusty11** · 05-21-2013, 07:33 AM

Yea. I did notice that, as well. Maybe he has changed his position. I don't know. I mainly posted this because he discussed the unlikely correlation between prostate issues and trt. Seems to be the most talked about concern.

***LowT Mike*** · 05-21-2013, 10:20 AM

The Harvard Guy is---- "Testosterone : A Man's Guide." Abraham Morgenthaller's also: "Testosterone for Life. Dr. Morgenthaller is the one responsible for dispelling all the myths and 60 years of dogma weve had with TRT. The studies just keep coming out. If your testosterone is not 580 or higher. You run the the risk of developing all the big pathologies that plague US men. Alztimers dementia, Coronary artery disease, Metabolic syndrome, Insulin Resitant, Type 2 diabetes, High cholesterol, High Blood pressure, the list goes on and one. High blood pressure and high cholesterol is often the result of LOWT. There is a direct correlation with all the pathologies Ive mentioned and LOWT. I've pulled many men of there statins, diabetic meds, SSRI's and anti depressants, blood pressure medications, many many more. Big pharma does not like well trained TRT docs. Ill tell you that. lol.

Read some Mogenthaller. I listen to his talks every year at a4m and what he has proven in TRT is the sole reason this medicine is coming out of the dark ages. Although his research is noteworthy. His treatment protocols I dont totally agree with. Hes a urologist and very conservative. He has finally changed his stance on every 2 week admin of T. Thank god. This protocol is 8-10 years out dated. Take his treatment with a grain of salt. But the studies...You cant disprove a double blind placebo resistant. hahaha. So my hat is off to Abraham. For example, the biggest misconception out there...Prostate Cancer. Doctors are still saying TRT cause prostate cancer. Not true at all. completely the opposite:

A common misconception among physicians is that testosterone administration adversely affects the normal prostate. This idea is not supported by the medical literature. A 2002 study indicates that testosterone is actually beneficial for the prostate gland in the vast majority of cases. In this study, researchers looked at multiple parameters, including prostate volume, prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels, and lower urinary tract symptoms in a group of men with low or low-normal testosterone levels . Of the 207 men studied, 187 responded favorably to testosterone treatment. These positive responders all showed improvement in almost every parameter measured: their prostate glands all decreased in size, PSA was lower, and urinary symptoms such as frequency, urgency, dribbling, and getting up at night to urinate all improved.
In a separate recent study that looked at a similar group of men, the authors observed, “No treatment-related change was observed in prostate histology, tissue biomarkers, gene expression, or
cancer incidence or severity. Treatment-related changes in prostate volume, serum PSA, voiding symptoms, and urinary flow were minor.”

On the question of whether testosterone therapy causes prostate cancer, the answer clearly appears to be “NO”. In a landmark review article published in 2004 in the New England Journal of Medicine, the authors report “there appears to be no compelling evidence at present to suggest that men with higher testosterone levels are at greater risk of prostate cancer or that treating men who have hypogonadism [low testosterone ] with exogenous androgens increases this risk.” A long- term study revealed that there is a less than 1% incidence of prostate cancer occurrence among patients receiving testosterone treatment. This supports again that treatment is beneficial to the prostate when you compare these findings to the national average that 1 in 7 men get prostate cancer. However, since testosterone stimulates cell growth, it is possible that it can accelerate the growth of an existing prostate cancer. Cancer-screening tests such as a PSA test are necessary before replacement therapy. Testosterone treatment is contraindicated in men with known prostate cancer and breast cancer.

**powerlifterty16** · 05-21-2013, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by APIs

^^Dated 2009, but still very interesting. Especially one of the last paragraphs:

"I think we’ll also find out in five years that there very well may be general health benefits of having normal testosterone compared to low testosterone . There are growing data for all-cause mortality that men who have low testosterone die earlier than those who have normal testosterone. A study by the Veterans Administration reported about a year ago showed low testosterone levels were associated with a dramatically increased mortality rate. It’s hard to know why that is, but I think we’ll be focused on that in the coming years."

What amazes me though is the guy is a Harvard Doc and still listed Testosterone Cypionate being administered every 2-4 weeks as a viable regimen for TRT, not to mention in-office injections too! You'd think this guy over anyone else would understand half-life of the drugs he administers to patients. Simply amazing...

i noticed that too, and what is worse is that he even acknowledged roller coaster

***LowT Mike*** · 05-21-2013, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by powerlifterty16

one risk is going bald...which scares me as i have nice hair

I DO NOT RECOMMEND FINESTRIDE OR DIRESTRIDE. These compounds wreak havoc on your endocrine system. There is a Yahoo forum of men who have used these products and now have such horrible endocrine pathology that even a few of them have commited suicide. DO NOT USE THESE PRODUCTS. To protect the prostate from DHT. Use a Prostate restore product. Saw palmetto, beta systerol, pegyum bark, needle root, ect. These do work if you go with a good brand that is USP or GMP approved.

When it comes to hair loss. Abraham Mortengaler--Studies support DHT conversion while on treatment does not aggravate male pattern baldness (MPB). When a man becomes andropausal all the DHT he needs to aggravate MPB is present. Having more DHT once on treatment won’t change or advance this. Studies show that there is not an increase in MPB in placebo vs. testosterone therapy groups.

However if a teenager who is not andropausal and has the MPB gene does a cycle of steriods it is very possible for his MPB to kick in sooner than later. He is not andropausal yet.

Talk to a compounding pharamacy. They use a product that you can apply transdermally like shampoo. I want to say it responds to aplha channel receptors and contains an active ingrident that is in direstride without the endo complications.