TRT and DHT

**Nate02** · 12-22-2012, 06:52 PM

Hi everyone! I am concerned about keeping my hair throughout TRT. My DHT was just tested at 22 ng/dL. I am close to starting Androgel 1.62%. What are the forums thoughts on gels and injections affect on DHT? And with my DHT level would it be a better idea to begin gels or injections? It has come to my attention that gels increase DHT more than injections.

**kelkel** · 12-23-2012, 12:05 PM

Yes, gels will increase DHT levels more than injections. DHT is not a "bad" thing. It's what makes you a man and is way more powerful than test. Your level appears quite low without seeing a scale. I'd bet you'll feel better with your DHT level elevated some. It will improve mood, libido, etc. Test converts to DHT everywhere in the body except skeletel muscle via the 5 Alpha-Reductase enzyme. What does make it into muscle is killed off by another enzyme called 3-Hyrdoxy Steroid if I recall correctly.

Regarding your hair and MPB. Look at your parents and if it runs in your family then odds are probably not in your favor. Just do not think that DHT is "bad" as it's not.

**Allaaro** · 12-23-2012, 01:02 PM

My DHT is almost 3x normal range...I have no hair loss, prostate problems, etc.

**Vettester** · 12-23-2012, 08:48 PM

Agree with the above. If you have the disposition for hair loss, then you will be seeing it regardless! As for me, TRT added more hair if anything than what I had before, and my hairline is like it was at 18yo.

**Nate02** · 12-24-2012, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Yes, gels will increase DHT levels more than injections. DHT is not a "bad" thing. It's what makes you a man and is way more powerful than test. Your level appears quite low without seeing a scale. I'd bet you'll feel better with your DHT level elevated some. It will improve mood, libido, etc. Test converts to DHT everywhere in the body except skeletel muscle via the 5 Alpha-Reductase enzyme. What does make it into muscle is killed off by another enzyme called 3-Hyrdoxy Steroid if I recall correctly.

Regarding your hair and MPB. Look at your parents and if it runs in your family then odds are probably not in your favor. Just do not think that DHT is "bad" as it's not.

As usual, very informative kelkel, thank you. Okay, I wasn't sure if 22 ng/dL was considered very low or not. It is considered low in relation to the reference range; but it is so difficult to determine if scales are accurate representations.

Originally Posted by Allaaro

My DHT is almost 3x normal range...I have no hair loss, prostate problems, etc.

Very good to know. I assume your levels are closer to 300 then? Also, how long have your levels been so high for?

Originally Posted by Vettester

Agree with the above. If you have the disposition for hair loss, then you will be seeing it regardless! As for me, TRT added more hair if anything than what I had before, and my hairline is like it was at 18yo.

What do you attribute the additional hair to? I have never known that to be an effect.

Fortunately, I do not have a strong genetic predisposition for male pattern baldness. That being said, I am worried that a high enough level of DHT might still trigger it. Perhaps the predisposition might help my body to tolerate more DHT than others, but it could still have its turning point. I do not speak of absurd amounts of DHT but more like along the lines of Allaro's situation of 3x the normal amount. Could this be the case?

**Allaaro** · 12-24-2012, 09:12 AM

My last DHT levels were just under 8000. In a 860-3400 range (Canada numbers). I was above range since my first bloodtest on 100mg per week. But, this was done on 120 test per week, I'm on 160 right now and have been up to 200....so my DHT is probably above 10k right now. Been on TRT for over a year now. Doc doesn't even test it anymore since I have no sides and I have to pay for the test because OHIP doesn't cover it. Probably test it eventually again though....but no real reason except to play it safe...even if it came back 20000(unlikely) it wouldn't matter because I'm not taking those drugs to lower DHT since I think they are horrible...proscar or some crap, and I'm not stopping my TRT ever.

But really, take a step back and ask yourself, who I rather be like a normal and energetic human being? Living life and doing things because your not depression with low T and feel like crap.....and you would rather have that head of hair? Sign me up for being bald anytime if that is my options. It's just hair...I'd rather testosterone .

**Nate02** · 12-25-2012, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Allaaro

My last DHT levels were just under 8000. In a 860-3400 range (Canada numbers). I was above range since my first bloodtest on 100mg per week. But, this was done on 120 test per week, I'm on 160 right now and have been up to 200....so my DHT is probably above 10k right now. Been on TRT for over a year now. Doc doesn't even test it anymore since I have no sides and I have to pay for the test because OHIP doesn't cover it. Probably test it eventually again though....but no real reason except to play it safe...even if it came back 20000(unlikely) it wouldn't matter because I'm not taking those drugs to lower DHT since I think they are horrible...proscar or some crap, and I'm not stopping my TRT ever.

But really, take a step back and ask yourself, who I rather be like a normal and energetic human being? Living life and doing things because your not depression with low T and feel like crap.....and you would rather have that head of hair? Sign me up for being bald anytime if that is my options. It's just hair...I'd rather testosterone.

Well if you're not experiencing any hair loss as of now, then I am sure you're okay. I have asked myself that. Of course any rational human being will choose the prior and choose their quality of life. I am 20 years old and feel like I am 40; something must be done and I know this. I hope that I do not lose hair but if I do, I would move on to another therapy in hopes that there is another way in which the effects would be to my liking. For instance, in the case of hair loss I mentioned injections might be more suitable; less DHT and seemingly the same effects. I do have my priorities straight, but I am not one to settle for mediocrity and a treatment that wont tap into my healing potential.

Interesting post though, thank you.

**kelkel** · 12-25-2012, 12:15 PM

Nate I really would not stress over your DHT level. The range for dht is just that, a range based on societal norms. It doesn't really mean that much to be over the top of the scale for it. It's all about how you feel.

**Rusty11** · 12-25-2012, 03:53 PM

Shave your head. Works for me.

**kelkel** · 12-25-2012, 09:38 PM

^^ Or that!

**Nate02** · 12-26-2012, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Nate I really would not stress over your DHT level. The range for dht is just that, a range based on societal norms. It doesn't really mean that much to be over the top of the scale for it. It's all about how you feel.

That's comforting. I am just worried about hair loss and don't want it to sneak up on me; at 20 that is not something I want to deal with. Hopefully my family's hair-keeping genes will prevail.

Originally Posted by Rusty11

Shave your head. Works for me.

Can't say I am too fond of this idea.

**Rusty11** · 12-27-2012, 10:01 AM

Yea....just kidding anyway. For me, I was screwed in that area, so just decided to beat it to the punch. Thankfully, I don't have an egg head.

**Nate02** · 12-27-2012, 10:13 AM

Topical gel caused your hair loss? Do you hair loss running in your family? What are your DHT levels?

**Nate02** · 12-27-2012, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Rusty11

Yea....just kidding anyway. For me, I was screwed in that area, so just decided to beat it to the punch. Thankfully, I don't have an egg head.

Topical gel caused your hair loss? Do you hair loss running in your family? What are your DHT levels?

**Rusty11** · 12-27-2012, 10:25 AM

Nah....on my moms side, everyone was bald. I was screwed. I started losing it at around 30...way before trt.

**Nate02** · 12-28-2012, 09:30 AM

Does anyone know how injections raise DHT? I have read sites that claim it has no effect and others that claim it does.

**kelkel** · 12-28-2012, 10:31 AM

Well, testosterone converts to dht everywhere in the body except skeletel muscle via the 5-Alpha Reducatase Enzyme. DHT is a good thing, not a bad thing! This conversion does not necessarily mean it's going to elevate your level. Gels tend to elevate DHT more than injections. What little bit that makes it into muscle is pretty much killed off by another enzyme, 3-Hydroxy Steroid or something like that. Memory could be off a bit on the last enzyme....

**Nate02** · 12-28-2012, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Well, testosterone converts to dht everywhere in the body except skeletel muscle via the 5-Alpha Reducatase Enzyme. DHT is a good thing, not a bad thing! This conversion does not necessarily mean it's going to elevate your level. Gels tend to elevate DHT more than injections. What little bit that makes it into muscle is pretty much killed off by another enzyme, 3-Hydroxy Steroid or something like that. Memory could be off a bit on the last enzyme....

So you're saying that inevitably both injections and gels will convert DHT, just that conversion may or may not elevate levels?

So injections will definitely raise DHT? Just not as much as gels?

**kelkel** · 12-28-2012, 01:20 PM

Well it depends on where your at now T wise. More T can equal more conversion but how your body handles it will be unique to your physiology. Example when I was on gels my dht went through the roof. When I switched to injections within a month it was high normal, where I like it.

Whats up Nate? You seem to be stressing about this?

**Nate02** · 12-28-2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Well it depends on where your at now T wise. More T can equal more conversion but how your body handles it will be unique to your physiology. Example when I was on gels my dht went through the roof. When I switched to injections within a month it was high normal, where I like it.

Whats up Nate? You seem to be stressing about this?

What DHT level did you consider high on Androgel ? What is your last recording of your DHT level now on injections?

Yes I am very anxious about starting the Androgel. I've been feeling symptoms since I was only twelve years old; and I am excited to have found and treat the reason i.e. testosterone . However, between research, people such as yourself, and doctors I have been told contradicting information on many levels of diagnosis and treatment both. I appreciate it all; but I feel as if there is too much, too quickly to comprehend. I don't want to make a wrong move at such a young age and regret it.

It doesn't help that throughout this journey I have lost faith in the competency of doctors. I don't know where I would be right now if I didn't take control. In fact, my family physician even went as far as to patronize me for the initial inquiry.

DHT and my hair are something I worry about because baldness completely changes the way a 20 year old appears; and that is important to me. I don't want to lose my hair on Androgel, look back, and realize that simply switching to testosterone injections could of saved my hair. I am very stressed about this.

**Allaaro** · 12-28-2012, 04:24 PM

My example I gave on myself earlier was on injections from the start. I hate gels and rather pin needles all day and think it's the better route. So you can still have sky high DHT on injections....BUT, it probably would of been higher on gels.

Even if your 20, and you lose your hair....it isn't a big deal. Sure you might think it sucks....but you'll get over it. Be the bald guy who is jacked from the weightroom and scare everyone haha...but really, I'm 25 and I think the main cause of hair loss is worrying about losing your hair. Stress is bad

Go with everything in stride and don't worry about the small things...because no matter how much you love your hair, its a small thing. It isn't a lung...a liver...etc.

**Nate02** · 12-28-2012, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Allaaro

My example I gave on myself earlier was on injections from the start. I hate gels and rather pin needles all day and think it's the better route. So you can still have sky high DHT on injections....BUT, it probably would of been higher on gels.

Even if your 20, and you lose your hair....it isn't a big deal. Sure you might think it sucks....but you'll get over it. Be the bald guy who is jacked from the weightroom and scare everyone haha...but really, I'm 25 and I think the main cause of hair loss is worrying about losing your hair. Stress is bad

Go with everything in stride and don't worry about the small things...because no matter how much you love your hair, its a small thing. It isn't a lung...a liver...etc.

Thank you for the advice. That is something to keep in my mind. I really hope I am able to keep it. I am curious to see my DHT level in mid-January, when my next appointment is; if levels are high I will most likely change to injections. That is a good advice; but as someone studying psychology I would have to disagree with that last part.

**kelkel** · 12-28-2012, 04:46 PM

I don't recall numbers exactly but I believe it was about twice the norm but I had zero effects from it. Never lost a hair. On injections it came back down to high normal. I switched mainly due to not achieving the T level I wanted. DHT is not a bad thing and elevated DHT does not automatically mean you'll be a chrome dome at all! Your not going to wake up bald one morning! What Allaaro said makes sense. Stop stressing, you'll be just fine!

**Nate02** · 12-28-2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

I don't recall numbers exactly but I believe it was about twice the norm but I had zero effects from it. Never lost a hair. On injections it came back down to high normal. I switched mainly due to not achieving the T level I wanted. DHT is not a bad thing and elevated DHT does not automatically mean you'll be a chrome dome at all! Your not going to wake up bald one morning! What Allaaro said makes sense. Stop stressing, you'll be just fine!

Thanks for the advice kelkel. I'll do my best. Day #2 of the trial run hasn't been going great. Bad headache all day and my girlfriend almost touched my shoulder.

**powerlifterty16** · 05-20-2013, 09:26 PM

nate any updates?

**phaedo** · 05-21-2013, 03:55 AM

If I could offer any consolation from my experience:

Before starting TRT, my hair was thinning and had me worried. I even tried Rogain in attempt to keep a full head of hair. After TRT, I have more hair than I've ever had. In fact, it grows so fast and thick, I have to visit the barber every ten days and request thinning shears so I can at least manage it!

Now I can't give you the physiology of hair growth and hormones, but I think you'll be okay ;-)

***LowT Mike*** · 05-21-2013, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Nate I really would not stress over your DHT level. The range for dht is just that, a range based on societal norms. It doesn't really mean that much to be over the top of the scale for it. It's all about how you feel.

^^^^Exactly right. Only thing I would add. In regards to prostate health I would add if DHT is elevated to a superphysiological level. WATCH PSA. If PSA is elevated more than 1.0 unit in 6 months. Time for a DHT blocker. I DO NOT RECOMMEND FINESTRIDE OR DIRESTRIDE. These compounds wreak havoc on your endocrine system. There is a Yahoo forum of men who have used these products and now have such horrible endocrine pathology that even a few of them have commited suicide. DO NOT USE THESE PRODUCTS. To protect the prostate from DHT. Use a Prostate restore product. Saw palmetto, beta systerol, pegyum bark, needle root, ect. These do work if you go with a good brand that is USP or GMP approved.

When it comes to hair loss. Abraham Mortengaler--Studies support DHT conversion while on treatment does not aggravate male pattern baldness (MPB). When a man becomes andropausal all the DHT he needs to aggravate MPB is present. Having more DHT once on treatment won’t change or advance this. Studies show that there is not an increase in MPB in placebo vs. testosterone therapy groups.

However if a teenager who is not andropausal and has the MPB gene does a cycle of steriods it is very possible for his MPB to kick in sooner than later. He is not andropausal yet.

**Allaaro** · 05-21-2013, 07:40 PM

I honestly am curious on what my DHT levels are at sometimes considering since they have been unreadable since starting TRT dosages of test.....which I'm now above TRT dosages.

Saw Palmetto lowered mine bit before it got out of range, so it does work. Even if it didn't work that much....it still is healthy to take daily for the prostate. Especially if your on TRT or blasting/cruising.