Switching TRT Injection Protocol

[Bulldogs1]

2 Weeks ago I began TRT with 200mg of Test Cyp per week. However, I was getting pretty symptomatic of estrogen conversion (water weight, moodiness, joint pain, low energy). These were symptoms before TRT but the dosage seemed to make them worse.

Tomorrow is the day of the week I'm supposed to inject, so I contacted my doctor and he okayed me to split the dose to 2x per week to prevent the conversion to estrogen.

My question would be: Do I just go for 100mg tomorrow and then follow up with 100mg in 3.5 days? Or is there a way to transition to 100mg? He wasn't specific but I figured I'd make sure.

[JohnnyVegas]

With a long ester you won't mess things up too much. I would just pick the two days you want to inject and move over to that.

Have you actually had your E2 tested lately?

My E2 dropped when I switched to injecting twice a week. Good luck!

[Bulldogs1]

Nope. Had some numbers checked 2 weeks ago before I got on Test Cyp. Labs getting done in 4 more weeks.

[kelkel]

Just said this in another thread but I have no clue why doc's think they need to start guys out on 200mg per week. That's a high end dose and few people need it. How many other medicines do doc's start out at a max dose and then cut back?

My opinion is you should cut back to 50 x 2 per week for 100mg total and re-test in 4 weeks. Less = more in TRT. Meaning less sides, less ancillaries needed and so on. Much easier on your body to titrate up as needed than it is down, IMHO.

[MRNJ1992]

Agree with Kel. Nice leg shot Kel. Impressive as always.

[Bulldogs1]

I know, 100mg split twice in a week seems best but this is just a temporary dosage until I get lab work done. It took me a lot of effort to find a doc that prescribe test cyp to a 21 yr old and on my parent's insurance. So I'm just kind of respecting his methods for now, and he's reasonable so he'd be willing to adjust based on upcoming labs.

[Bulldogs1]

6 week labs came back, only have test and free test numbers, getting retested for test, e2, and cortisol in a week:

total test: 478 ng/dl
free test: 11.5 (8.3-26.5)

This is on 50mg test cyp twice a week, not the 100mg twice a week I originally posted. I read the label incorrectly.

The draw for this lab was a day after my 2nd injection day of the week, and I had to skip that injection (lab closed on inject day, 4th of july) so these labs reflect a number that is slightly lower than what I'd normally be at pre-injection. Back on my regular dosing schedule though, and based on my e2 levels going to up the dose or add AI.

[adam1973]

Nope. Had some numbers checked 2 weeks ago before I got on Test Cyp. Labs getting done in 4 more weeks.

oops

[Bulldogs1]

oops

whaaat?

[Bulldogs1]

bump i suppose, for thoughts/comments

[phaedo]

bump i suppose, for thoughts/comments

I think kelkel said it best.

Less really is more with TRT. I wish I knew that from the start, but like many of the uneducated, you hear the word "testosterone" and think if you take a bunch you'll get really big, really alpha, and life will be really great. Hardly.

[LowT Mike]

^^^^^I love this discussion. To the guy that thinks they need more T or try to get more T from there doc about lying about still having symptoms even though they feel great. Its just not so. More is not better...its worse.

[Bulldogs1]

New Update

Got my labs back that I took on 7/20, this was 24 hours after injection of 50mg test cyp (which I do twice per week)

Total Test: 736 ng/dL (348-1197)
Free Test: 16.1 pg/mL (8.3-26.5)
Estradiol Roche ECLIA Method: 17.9 pg/mL (7.6-42.6)
Estrone: 46 pg/mL (12-72)
Cortisol, AM: 21.8 ug/dl (6.2-19.4) HIGH

Questions, appreciate any opinions:

1. Meeting with Dr. again in 3 weeks, is it a good time to hop on HCG now? And if so what dose/schedule?
2. Can I expect my cortisol to go down with more test via HCG?
3. Can I begin injecting my test cyp subcutaneously? Currently do IM, looking for stabler levels.

No need to add AI with HCG immediately I believe since levels look good for now.


Thank you for any help

[Bulldogs1]

bump, need some advice plz

[m_donnelly]

New Update

Got my labs back that I took on 7/20, this was 24 hours after injection of 50mg test cyp (which I do twice per week)

Total Test: 736 ng/dL (348-1197)
Free Test: 16.1 pg/mL (8.3-26.5)
Estradiol Roche ECLIA Method: 17.9 pg/mL (7.6-42.6)
Estrone: 46 pg/mL (12-72)
Cortisol, AM: 21.8 ug/dl (6.2-19.4) HIGH

Questions, appreciate any opinions:

1. Meeting with Dr. again in 3 weeks, is it a good time to hop on HCG now? And if so what dose/schedule?
2. Can I expect my cortisol to go down with more test via HCG?
3. Can I begin injecting my test cyp subcutaneously? Currently do IM, looking for stabler levels.

No need to add AI with HCG immediately I believe since levels look good for now.


Thank you for any help

I'm by no means an expert but here's my two cents:

1. As a former AAS user, I think that hCG is a great addition. But, that's AAS use and not TRT. I would only add in hCG if you are looking to have kids down the road and/or want to keep your plumbing working for other reasons (ie coming off of TRT at some point. But, there are different views on this subject.

2. Those cortisol levels are higher than mine were after cortisol stimulation. Cortisol is on a negative feedback loop with testosterone so in surprised its high. I imagine your doc will tell you to give it some time and it'll drop as your test levels stay high. If not, ask him about it as elevated cortisol levels can be indicative of other problems.

3. Subcutaneous injections are friggin awesome: I'll never go back to IM injections. I literally feel the test kicking in immediately after an IM injection and my estrogen spikes within twelve-twenty four hours after. The subcutaneous injections release much slower and smoother.

No, don't touch an AI, your E2 levels are on the low side without it. Lucky SOB!

[Bulldogs1]

I'm by no means an expert but here's my two cents:

1. As a former AAS user, I think that hCG is a great addition. But, that's AAS use and not TRT. I would only add in hCG if you are looking to have kids down the road and/or want to keep your plumbing working for other reasons (ie coming off of TRT at some point. But, there are different views on this subject.

2. Those cortisol levels are higher than mine were after cortisol stimulation. Cortisol is on a negative feedback loop with testosterone so in surprised its high. I imagine your doc will tell you to give it some time and it'll drop as your test levels stay high. If not, ask him about it as elevated cortisol levels can be indicative of other problems.

3. Subcutaneous injections are friggin awesome: I'll never go back to IM injections. I literally feel the test kicking in immediately after an IM injection and my estrogen spikes within twelve-twenty four hours after. The subcutaneous injections release much slower and smoother.

No, don't touch an AI, your E2 levels are on the low side without it. Lucky SOB!

Have had high cortisol for like a year now, only been on TRT for 12 weeks.

And I'm 21 years old so the HCG to be able to have kids seems like a must.

[m_donnelly]

Have had high cortisol for like a year now, only been on TRT for 12 weeks.

And I'm 21 years old so the HCG to be able to have kids seems like a must.

Yes, I think most folks around here will recommend hCG at your age.

[Bulldogs1]

Getting HCG prescription filled on tomorrow. Was planning on dosing 2x week 250iu, can anyone offer me advice as to when I should administer this? Inject once Sunday and once Thursday, what day should the HCG factor in?

[FRDave]

Getting HCG prescription filled on tomorrow. Was planning on dosing 2x week 250iu, can anyone offer me advice as to when I should administer this? Inject once Sunday and once Thursday, what day should the HCG factor in?

I inject the day before my test injection. I use to inject 250iu Mon/Wed/Fri which most prefer.

[Bulldogs1]

I inject the day before my test injection. I use to inject 250iu Mon/Wed/Fri which most prefer.

What do you think of Dr. Crisler, who I'm sure you're aware of, suggesting 2 days before injection?

And will 2x a week be fine? 3x may set my T levels a little high

[FRDave]

What do you think of Dr. Crisler, who I'm sure you're aware of, suggesting 2 days before injection?

And will 2x a week be fine? 3x may set my T levels a little high

That is fine and preferred if injecting test 1x per week. If you inject test 2x per week, I would do HCG 2x per week, the day before test injections, or 3x per week, Mon/Wed/Fri.

The idea is to keep serum levels steady all week, so play around and see what works best for you.

On another note, you may have to up the dosage as well, up to 1000iu per week total, but preferably no more than 500iu per injection. Most see full benefit at 700-750iu weekly...

[Bulldogs1]

That is fine and preferred if injecting test 1x per week. If you inject test 2x per week, I would do HCG 2x per week, the day before test injections, or 3x per week, Mon/Wed/Fri.

The idea is to keep serum levels steady all week, so play around and see what works best for you.

On another note, you may have to up the dosage as well, up to 1000iu per week total, but preferably no more than 500iu per injection. Most see full benefit at 700-750iu weekly...

Gotcha. My most recent labs (12 hrs post injection) showed my E2 at 21 which is fine, but my estrone very high at like 83. I know estrone isn't as important as E2, but my doctor likes to monitor that as well.

He wants me to order this supp called Bio-Prostate, as it has clinical levels of some things that will help with aromatization. He and I both figure no need for an AI until I truly need it.

[FRDave]

Gotcha. My most recent labs (12 hrs post injection) showed my E2 at 21 which is fine, but my estrone very high at like 83. I know estrone isn't as important as E2, but my doctor likes to monitor that as well.

He wants me to order this supp called Bio-Prostate, as it has clinical levels of some things that will help with aromatization. He and I both figure no need for an AI until I truly need it.

I am not too familiar with estrone (E1) other than that E1 can convert to E2 and is lowered when taking an AI such as Arimidex. In your case, you don't want to lower your E2, but I'm unsure if you can target E1 directly. I did some searching and found some asking as well as a TRT Dr responding on another board, but no conclusion was made.

Hopefully someone can chime in on this one as I'm curious now.

As for the Bio-Prostate, I don't see how this will help lower E1 with the exception of Zinc which is under dosed. He may be looking to make a sale???

[Bulldogs1]

I am not too familiar with estrone (E1) other than that E1 can convert to E2 and is lowered when taking an AI such as Arimidex. In your case, you don't want to lower your E2, but I'm unsure if you can target E1 directly. I did some searching and found some asking as well as a TRT Dr responding on another board, but no conclusion was made.

Hopefully someone can chime in on this one as I'm curious now.

As for the Bio-Prostate, I don't see how this will help lower E1 with the exception of Zinc which is under dosed. He may be looking to make a sale???

Hmm. I think he was more worried about my E2 rising with the HCG, and wanted to prescribe something less effective than an AI should I need it. I don't believe it was meant to address the estrone directly. Should I even bother with it?

Also, thanks for the help!

[Bulldogs1]

It's been awhile since I've updated, but here are the results of my last two lab draws. The only difference in protocol between the two draws are that I switched to subcutaneous injections for the second one.

10/7/13:
Testosterone Free: 25.5 [5-40]
Testosterone, Total: 767 [332-896]
Estrogens, Fractioned
Estrone: 99 [<80]
Estradiol: 32 [0-56]
Estrogens, Total: 131 [<136]

12/13/2013:
T3, Free: 3.9 [2.3-4.2]
T4, Free: 1.2 [0.7-1.5]
TSH: 1.99 [0.45-5.10]

Testosterone, Free: 41.7 [5-40]
Testosterone, Total: 712 [332-896]

Estrogens, Fractionated:
Estrone: 73 [<80]
Estradiol: 44 [0-56]
Estrogens, Total: 111 [<136]



Please let me know any feedback...
Is my estradiol too high? My doc doesn't seem to think so..

I had a night of heavy drinking before the second set of labs, so is it possible those thyroid scores would be hyperthyroid if alcohol wasn't suppressing thyroid the morning after?

[Bulldogs1]

It's been awhile since I've updated, but here are the results of my last two lab draws. The only difference in protocol between the two draws are that I switched to subcutaneous injections for the second one.

10/7/13:
Testosterone Free: 25.5 [5-40]
Testosterone, Total: 767 [332-896]
Estrogens, Fractioned
Estrone: 99 [<80]
Estradiol: 32 [0-56]
Estrogens, Total: 131 [<136]

12/13/2013:
T3, Free: 3.9 [2.3-4.2]
T4, Free: 1.2 [0.7-1.5]
TSH: 1.99 [0.45-5.10]

Testosterone, Free: 41.7 [5-40]
Testosterone, Total: 712 [332-896]

Estrogens, Fractionated:
Estrone: 73 [<80]
Estradiol: 44 [0-56]
Estrogens, Total: 111 [<136]



Please let me know any feedback...
Is my estradiol too high? My doc doesn't seem to think so..

I had a night of heavy drinking before the second set of labs, so is it possible those thyroid scores would be hyperthyroid if alcohol wasn't suppressing thyroid the morning after?

[Bulldogs1]

Any thoughts on that estrogen level or thyroid numbers?

[BallSak]

Thyroid looks really good to me. Estradiol could be slightly high. Heavy drinking doesn't help the matter.

[Megalodon6]

Why did you start trt at 21 that is very young did you try a restart first? Have you ever cycled or taken any pro hormones?

[j2048b]

e2 seems ok, remember just because people tell u to keep it between 20-30 doesnt mean ur body needs it that low, each person is different, some respond better if its between 30-60 and some respond and feel better if its between 20-30, i like my joints and stuff between 20-40 and can tell the difference if its to high or to low

now with anastrozole, i dont care for it much because it does have a rebound effect meaning ur e2 can and will rebound at a certain time if stopped and it will rise a lot, i had bloods done for my doc after being off anastrozole for a while and it shot me e2 thru the dang sky....

but ive also been told to use anastrozole on trt and exemenstane (aromasin) when and if i ever cycle... but prefer aromasin....plus anastrozole messes with lipids and aromasin might but not sure?

[Bulldogs1]

Why did you start trt at 21 that is very young did you try a restart first? Have you ever cycled or taken any pro hormones?

Never tried a restart, but I did try HCG monotherapy for a few months which failed to bring my T levels to a normal range, just a slight increase. I have never taken any pre hormones.

Hypothetically, how would one go about a restart?

[Bulldogs1]

e2 seems ok, remember just because people tell u to keep it between 20-30 doesnt mean ur body needs it that low, each person is different, some respond better if its between 30-60 and some respond and feel better if its between 20-30, i like my joints and stuff between 20-40 and can tell the difference if its to high or to low

now with anastrozole, i dont care for it much because it does have a rebound effect meaning ur e2 can and will rebound at a certain time if stopped and it will rise a lot, i had bloods done for my doc after being off anastrozole for a while and it shot me e2 thru the dang sky....

but ive also been told to use anastrozole on trt and exemenstane (aromasin) when and if i ever cycle... but prefer aromasin....plus anastrozole messes with lipids and aromasin might but not sure?

I mean I don't notice the high E2 other than that I hold a ton of water weight now, so even though I have a pretty low bf % I don't always look it. Kind of wish I could address that, without being aggressive by using an AI... any ideas on how I could do that?