SubQ Test C for TRT

[Wizwell]

I've been seeing more and more of you doing SubQ injections, with Test C, for your TRT. Is this a protocol I could mention to my Dr.? He would have no part of letting me self inject the last time I mentioned it. But, I believe this is because they were IM injections. I switched to gel as his once per month injection protocol put me on a roller coaster ride. I would love to SubQ inject bi-weekly if it is a legit protocol I could convince him on.

[bass]

Sounds like your doc is not up to date with TRT biweekly is a terrible protocol, it needs to be administered at least once a week. Half life of test C is about 6 days. Most here do twice a week protocol.

[kelkel]

Totally legit. Many guys here love it. Great for E2 control due to smaller, more frequent injections and slower absorption.

Show him this:

SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE INJECTIONS - THE CUTTING EDGE WITH DR. JOHN CRISLER - YouTube

[drake4243]

Yes this is normal to inject sub Q, If I remember right most do .5ML on average though, anymore in 1 pin can lead to great discomfort.

[bass]

oh yes, I forgot to say it is legit!

[vinceproduction]

Yep, been doing sub q test shots for well over a year now. Much more stable levels for me. but instead of bi-weekly shots i would break up your dose and do 2 shots per week. I would show him that video at your next office visit, and let him know dr Crisler's website if he needs to be shown that he's legit.

[powerlifterty16]

Sounds like your doc is not up to date with TRT biweekly is a terrible protocol, it needs to be administered at least once a week. Half life of test C is about 6 days. Most here do twice a week protocol.

i thought half life of t was less than 6 days?
if it is 6 days and a doc prescribes 200 mg every 14 days then that leaves 200 mg on monday, 100 on sunday afterwards, then by that saturday it would be about 50...so it seems it would last?

[bass]

5-6 some say 6-7, either way that's how its is with testosterone. test peaks at 48-72 hours then down from there, by the sixth day you're at half of that peak. lets say your injections peaks to 800, by the 6th day you're at 400, then quickly down to your base line or lower.

[powerlifterty16]

so basically by the 12th day you will be at 200...but isnt there a higher peak with every 2 week injections bc you use a higher dose..dont every 2 week injections peak you to suprephys levels?

I suppose it also depends on metabolism becausewith that logic, even once per week injections are bad..bc if you peak at 800 on once per week, then by the end of the week you are lower than 400?
but with twice per week injections it seems it would fall low too bc the peak isnt that high? dont most people do like 50-60 twice per week?.

[powerlifterty16]

nvm im an idiot you said t takes 48-72 hours to peak

[bass]

yes I do 60mgs twice a week and my total T is above 800 the day of my next injection, prior to injection of course, and my free T is way above normal.

[powerlifterty16]

so then i suppose it doesnt take much t to get a high normal peak

[Ryanmcd]

I did 50 2x a week sub Q and had a test level of 349, when I did IM I was mid 800's that is why having a good relationship with your doc is very important so you can try different things and do whatever works best for you.

I am on 120 IM 1 time a week
No HCG
No AI

Feel great, HCG did nothing for me and E2 is always 20-22

[Brett N]

Just prescribed - 50mg 2x a week subQ, HCG and AI of course, not everyone is the same.

SubQ seems to be the standard protocol to start with anyways.

[w8liftr]

I alternate between IM and subq. Mix it up. Keeps the body guessing. I'm actually going to see about alternating Injection with a gel like Testim. Used Testim before and I feel good on it. Again, keeps the body guessing, kinda like changing up your weightlifting routine. After pinning for so long body says " ho hum". With sudden intro of Testim it goes "hey, what's this?". He-he

[powerlifterty16]

I alternate between IM and subq. Mix it up. Keeps the body guessing. I'm actually going to see about alternating Injection with a gel like Testim. Used Testim before and I feel good on it. Again, keeps the body guessing, kinda like changing up your weightlifting routine. After pinning for so long body says " ho hum". With sudden intro of Testim it goes "hey, what's this?". He-he

you could prob do 50 mg sub q and then 3.5 days later do testim for 3 more days...testim is supposed to attract the ladies.

[LowT Mike]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Reasons why this protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!!
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

[bass]

I alternate between IM and subq. Mix it up. Keeps the body guessing. I'm actually going to see about alternating Injection with a gel like Testim. Used Testim before and I feel good on it. Again, keeps the body guessing, kinda like changing up your weightlifting routine. After pinning for so long body says " ho hum". With sudden intro of Testim it goes "hey, what's this?". He-he

keep the body guesting for what exactly? TRT doesn't work like weightlifting, no need to do that for that reason, however its a good idea to change spots to reduce scar tissue, but if doing SQ no need to worry about the either.

[powerlifterty16]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Reasons why this protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!!
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

sad thing is i was bored and looked up trt on johns hopkins a few weeks back, and they use every 2 weeks, and i think they just go to normal range not high end.
i wonder what harvard medical hospital would do?
Johns Hopkins Guides: Male Hypogonadism

[powerlifterty16]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Reasons why this protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!!
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

so i guess according to that graph no matter what dose is used or what peak is used, you will stil be low by day 8? I know a lot of drs use the logic that 200 mg every 2 weeks gives a higher peak and is as good as 100 every 7 days...but i guess whether you give double the dose or not you end up low anyway.

[LowT Mike]

With that higher front loading protocol dose you are also getting superphysiologic side effects. More polycythemia and increase estrogen aromatase with that protocol. Bad news

[2Sox]

This is why the protocol for 1 injection every 2-3 weeks of Test Cyp and Enanthate is 8-10 years out dated. Look at the graph. Exogenous Test peaks serum T between 24-48 hours and slowly falls back to baseline by day 9. For men on Testosterone only (no clomid or HCG therapy) they are often lower than baseline having levels lower than when they even started due to HPTA suppression. This pretty much equals feeling like crap week 2 and week 3. Men using this protocol experience this rollar-coaster hormone effect as they feel energized and optimal for the first 5 or 6 days then very weak and symptomatic week 2-3.

Reasons why this protocol is still around?
1)quite simply lack of education. The dosing directions that come from most of the commercially avaliable manufacturer of test cyp and E say "Inject 200mg of every 2-3 weeks." WRONG!!
2) Majority of doctors learn little about injectables because they only learn TRT from their Androgel medical rep. Sad but true.

Regarding half life and peak, what would be the advantages of low dose EOD over twice weekly? And how would a graph look of someone who injects EOD?

[LowT Mike]

You would essentially have different diurnal rhythms through the week with EOD as opposed 2x per week. With a with a long-ester like Cyp/Enan if you are injecting EOD you would be generally administering your following shots with serum T still raising given that it peaks at 24-48hrs. This protocol could have some overlap raising your levels to superphysiologic. The twice a week better replicates a natural Diurnal rhythm keeping your levels in the top 1/3 of your optimal range creating separate distinguishable peaks. For men who want to replicate this same "double peak" with only a 1x per week injection of T, they can administer an HCG injection on day 4 and another one on day 5 to give themselves a boost in endogenous T creating a second serum peak. This second peak wont be as dramatic, however men that are hyper excretors (metabolize T faster) and feel the drag as their T decays throughout the week often prefer this protocol to keep their T levels elevated and homeostatic throughout the week.

[Beethoven]

I'm still on HCG, but my Dr was mentioning alternating doses ie 100 mg week 1 then 150 week 2, 50 week 3 and so on. He was also saying that that's more like the body's natural rhythm. Is that so?

[2Sox]

You would essentially have different diurnal rhythms through the week with EOD as opposed 2x per week. With a with a long-ester like Cyp/Enan if you are injecting EOD you would be generally administering your following shots with serum T still raising given that it peaks at 24-48hrs. This protocol could have some overlap raising your levels to superphysiologic. The twice a week better replicates a natural Diurnal rhythm keeping your levels in the top 1/3 of your optimal range creating separate distinguishable peaks. For men who want to replicate this same "double peak" with only a 1x per week injection of T, they can administer an HCG injection on day 4 and another one on day 5 to give themselves a boost in endogenous T creating a second serum peak. This second peak wont be as dramatic, however men that are hyper excretors (metabolize T faster) and feel the drag as their T decays throughout the week often prefer this protocol to keep their T levels elevated and homeostatic throughout the week.

Thanks, LowT. I think I'm beginning to understand. I'm not certain, but I believe I'm a "hyper-excreter/metabolizer". I'm doing 40mg T-cyp, EOD and 250iu hCG, EOD - alternating. I'm 65 and my original baseline was 240TT. My last blood work at my urologist had me at 787 TT and Free T at 211 (range 44-244). Taking .25mg anastrozole every 3 or 4 days. I'm feeling pretty good but not great. I'm fairly new to this so I figure I'll go with this for awhile and see what happens. I've had a low grade viral infection for the last few weeks and I'm sure it's having an effect on my T levels.

I'm actually trying the EOD because I did very well with daily Androgel and I like the feeling of always being "there". Did 3-4 pumps a day and I felt great but it was getting very expensive - $175/month. Shots cost me $40 for a 10mL vial.

[LowT Mike]

I'm still on HCG, but my Dr was mentioning alternating doses ie 100 mg week 1 then 150 week 2, 50 week 3 and so on. He was also saying that that's more like the body's natural rhythm. Is that so?

NO. Natural diurnal rythym is a release of serum T while you sleep thats why serum T levels are at their highest early in the AM. ie-morning erections. Then test drops during the day. Daily test production can vary by as much as 30%. So natural diurnal graph over a week would look like a up and down zip zag line with 7 peaks keeping levels in the top 1/3 of range. The protocol you doc is suggesting would give you gradual decline of T with a medium peak week 1, a high peak week 2 and a low peak week 3. This would feel like a rollar coaster IMO. I can appriciate his enthusiam at least hes thinking about decay factors, ect. It seems to me that hes using the physical half-life of the drug to calculate the decay factor instead of the actual 7-9 day biological half-life and how it affects serum T. Show him the graph I posted and bring up some correlating protocols we talk about here. Im willing to bet the light will go on. My 2 cents

[LowT Mike]

Thanks, LowT. I think I'm beginning to understand. I'm not certain, but I believe I'm a "hyper-excreter/metabolizer". I'm doing 40mg T-cyp, EOD and 250iu hCG, EOD - alternating. I'm 65 and my original baseline was 240TT. My last blood work at my urologist had me at 787 TT and Free T at 211 (range 44-244). Taking .25mg anastrozole every 3 or 4 days. I'm feeling pretty good but not great. I'm fairly new to this so I figure I'll go with this for awhile and see what happens. I've had a low grade viral infection for the last few weeks and I'm sure it's having an effect on my T levels.

I'm actually trying the EOD because I did very well with daily Androgel and I like the feeling of always being "there". Did 3-4 pumps a day and I felt great but it was getting very expensive - $175/month. Shots cost me $40 for a 10mL vial.

Give it go. None of what has been charted or protocoled is one size fits all. I certainly still use unconventinal protocols on unique patients and still will try many different protocols on men that correlate to lifestyle, symptoms, labs ect. Until I find what works best for them. I say this all the time. TRT is not one size fits all. Optimal is what works best for the patient. Its like trying on pants. You might be a 32/32 in jeans but still have to try on 6 pairs until one fits you just right. LOL

[Beethoven]

Thanks Mike

[Wizwell]

I was meaning twice weekly with my biweekly statement. Wouldn't every two weeks be bimonthly? In any event, thanks to all for the replies. I'm going to approach him with this in hopes of letting me self inject. Androgel alone is insufficient.