Dhea

[NEFLRick]

Thinking of trying DHEA to help boost testosterone to see how it might work. I'm still considering TRT but wondering if this might not give me a bit of a spark. I'm 44--not young but not super old--and I'm wondering if DHEA can help my body boost my testosterone levels a bit, maybe I'll feel a little better, etc. for a while and I can (maybe) hold off on TRT for a little bit longer.

Not sure if it makes any sense or not--which is why I'm posting here--so wondering what others might be able to share with their experiences with DHEA.

Thanks.

[EverettCD]

Rick, check this out:

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...ould-know.html

Good info about DHEA & more.

[FRDave]

Supplement with DHEA based on blood work, not just for the heck of it. Even then, I doubt you will feel a difference, I didn't...

Do you have any blood work such as E2? SHBG? Vitamin D?

High E2 and SHBG can bind up free test...

[NEFLRick]

Supplement with DHEA based on blood work, not just for the heck of it. Even then, I doubt you will feel a difference, I didn't...

Do you have any blood work such as E2? SHBG? Vitamin D?

High E2 and SHBG can bind up free test...

Not yet but you make a very good point. Planning on getting bloodwork done since I haven't had it in about 9 months. My testosterone was at the low end of the spectrum at that time. I can't find the bloodwork (and it's too old to mean much now) so I need new work done anyway.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Supplement with DHEA based on blood work, not just for the heck of it. Even then, I doubt you will feel a difference, I didn't...

Do you have any blood work such as E2? SHBG? Vitamin D?

High E2 and SHBG can bind up free test...

SHBG does bind to testosterone but E2 does not bind to testosterone.

[FRDave]

SHBG does bind to testosterone but E2 does not bind to testosterone.

E2 binds to androgen receptors, not allowing testosterone to bind. If E2 is high, lowering and getting it in range will free up both total and free test.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

E2 binds to androgen receptors, not allowing testosterone to bind. If E2 is high, lowering and getting it in range will free up both total and free test.

Testosterone binds to androgen receptors.
Estrogen binds to estrogen receptors.

The only article I have ever seen saying estrogen binds to androgen receptors was on T Nation website. I have yet to read any medical article that states that estrogen binds to androgen receptors.

I of course could easily be proven wrong.

[2Sox]

Testosterone binds to androgen receptors.
Estrogen binds to estrogen receptors.

The only article I have ever seen saying estrogen binds to androgen receptors was on T Nation website. I have yet to read any medical article that states that estrogen binds to androgen receptors.

I of course could easily be proven wrong.

You are incorrect about this. FRDave is correct. E takes up androgen receptor sites. Any basic text (re: Shippen, Vergel, and a simple Google search) on TRT has this clearly referenced.

[2Sox]

Thinking of trying DHEA to help boost testosterone to see how it might work. I'm still considering TRT but wondering if this might not give me a bit of a spark. I'm 44--not young but not super old--and I'm wondering if DHEA can help my body boost my testosterone levels a bit, maybe I'll feel a little better, etc. for a while and I can (maybe) hold off on TRT for a little bit longer.

Not sure if it makes any sense or not--which is why I'm posting here--so wondering what others might be able to share with their experiences with DHEA.

Thanks.

Agree that blood work should set your course. My last BW showed I was below range for DHEA. I supplement immediately and I immediately felt better - more energy and more alert. A noticeable improvement and difference in well being. It may be coincidence and pure timing but my libido went WAY up (I'm finding my way with the correct T protocol for myself.)

With that said, DHEA is not a daily thing forever like other supplements. ALWAYS let BW dictate.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

You are incorrect about this. FRDave is correct. E takes up androgen receptor sites. Any basic text (re: Shippen, Vergel, and a simple Google search) on TRT has this clearly referenced.

I beg to differ.

I've done my google searches...


from e.hormone | Actions : Docking :: Receptor Binding

"Hormones, though, only bind to certain, compatible receptor types. Thyroid hormones and each steroid hormone group - the estrogens, androgens, progestins, glucocorticoids (stress hormones), and mineralocorticoids (water and ion-regulating hormones) - have a matching hormone receptor type. For instance, estrogen hormones, like estrone, bind to estrogen receptors (ER); androgen hormones, such as testosterone, bind to androgen receptors; and so on.

But, steroid hormone receptors for each hormone group can occur in several versions that differ in form, function, and location. So, steroid and thyroid hormones are not restricted to interact with only one receptor, in one tissue, to produce one kind of action. The hormones can easily bind and activate several versions of their matching receptor type. An example is the estrogen 17-beta-estradiol. It binds to both the ER alpha and ER beta receptors but not to androgen, progestin, or thyroid receptors."

As I said earlier, the only mention I see of estrogen binding to androgen receptors was in a forum entry in T Nation with no medical or other literature referenced.

[2Sox]

I beg to differ.

I've done my google searches...


from e.hormone | Actions : Docking :: Receptor Binding

"Hormones, though, only bind to certain, compatible receptor types. Thyroid hormones and each steroid hormone group - the estrogens, androgens, progestins, glucocorticoids (stress hormones), and mineralocorticoids (water and ion-regulating hormones) - have a matching hormone receptor type. For instance, estrogen hormones, like estrone, bind to estrogen receptors (ER); androgen hormones, such as testosterone, bind to androgen receptors; and so on.

But, steroid hormone receptors for each hormone group can occur in several versions that differ in form, function, and location. So, steroid and thyroid hormones are not restricted to interact with only one receptor, in one tissue, to produce one kind of action. The hormones can easily bind and activate several versions of their matching receptor type. An example is the estrogen 17-beta-estradiol. It binds to both the ER alpha and ER beta receptors but not to androgen, progestin, or thyroid receptors."

As I said earlier, the only mention I see of estrogen binding to androgen receptors was in a forum entry in T Nation with no medical or other literature referenced.

"The Testosterone Syndrome" , Eugene Shippen:
Page 47:
"Estrogen converted by aromatase can actually unlock or displace testosterone at its various cellular receptor sites."

Page 48:
"....high estrogen levels cause an actual slowdown in testosterone production. The mechanism of action is that the female hormone [estrogen] occupies some of the hypothalamic receptors for testosterone in the brain. The hypothalmus interprets this as if it were testosterone filling those receptor sites. The hypothalamus is tricked into acting as if testosterone levels in the body are high...."

If as you and the article claim, that E2 does not bind to androgen receptor sites, why is it necessary that many men on TRT take aromatase inhibitors?

[powerlifterty16]

"The Testosterone Syndrome" , Eugene Shippen:
Page 47:
"Estrogen converted by aromatase can actually unlock or displace testosterone at its various cellular receptor sites."

Page 48:
"....high estrogen levels cause an actual slowdown in testosterone production. The mechanism of action is that the female hormone [estrogen] occupies some of the hypothalamic receptors for testosterone in the brain. The hypothalmus interprets this as if it were testosterone filling those receptor sites. The hypothalamus is tricked into acting as if testosterone levels in the body are high...."

kind of a reverse clomid type of deal ..although i always wondered why the body didnt just recognize the clomid as an estrogen...instead of seeing i as a non estrogen and telling the body to rev up t to make more estrogen.

[2Sox]

I beg to differ.

I've done my google searches...


from e.hormone | Actions : Docking :: Receptor Binding

"Hormones, though, only bind to certain, compatible receptor types. Thyroid hormones and each steroid hormone group - the estrogens, androgens, progestins, glucocorticoids (stress hormones), and mineralocorticoids (water and ion-regulating hormones) - have a matching hormone receptor type. For instance, estrogen hormones, like estrone, bind to estrogen receptors (ER); androgen hormones, such as testosterone, bind to androgen receptors; and so on.

But, steroid hormone receptors for each hormone group can occur in several versions that differ in form, function, and location. So, steroid and thyroid hormones are not restricted to interact with only one receptor, in one tissue, to produce one kind of action. The hormones can easily bind and activate several versions of their matching receptor type. An example is the estrogen 17-beta-estradiol. It binds to both the ER alpha and ER beta receptors but not to androgen, progestin, or thyroid receptors."

As I said earlier, the only mention I see of estrogen binding to androgen receptors was in a forum entry in T Nation with no medical or other literature referenced.

You indeed did your Google searches. I was surprised by this bolded statement above. I could not find information to the contrary through my searches, so far; only the previous quotes I posted. I'm eager to see the input of others.

[FRDave]

Taken from LEF here: LE Magazine, May 2003 - Cover Story: Improve Your Sex Life And Protect Against Heart Attack

Furthermore, high serum levels of estrogen trick the brain into thinking that enough testosterone is being produced, thereby reducing the natural production and availability of testosterone even more. This happens because at high levels, estrogen saturates testosterone receptors in the hypothalamus, which subsequently stops sending hormone signals to the pituitary gland. Another consequence of estrogen production is stimulation of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) by estrogen. An increase in SHBG further binds testosterone and lowers the free testosterone level.

I'll try to find better references... If E2 does not bind to androgen receptors, why does free and total test increase when using an AI like Arimidex?

Maybe Low T Mike or Austinite will chime in...

[bass]

both bind to a different degree. Dave is correct.

Differential binding of estradiol and testoster... [J Reprod Med. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

[The Deadlifting Dog]

both bind to a different degree. Dave is correct.

Differential binding of estradiol and testoster... [J Reprod Med. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

No. Dave is not correct from the info you provided.
The article you provided states that estrogen and testosterone both bind with SHBG. That was never in question.

What is in question is does estrogen bind with androgen receptors.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Taken from LEF here: LE Magazine, May 2003 - Cover Story: Improve Your Sex Life And Protect Against Heart Attack

I'll try to find better references... If E2 does not bind to androgen receptors, why does free and total test increase when using an AI like Arimidex?

Maybe Low T Mike or Austinite will chime in...

Free test and total test increase when using an AI because estrogen comes from testosterone. That is testosterone is converted into estrogen.
The body produces an enzyme that is used in this conversion. AI's either destroy this enzyme or bind to the enzyme making in unusable. Since there is now less of this enzyme available, less testosterone gets converted into estrogen. Since less testosterone gets converted into estrogen, more testosterone is circulating in the body.

Side note: the enzyme is produced in fat cells (especially stomach fat?). For this reason, overweight people are often advised against using steroids since they will more likely suffer from the side effects of excess estrogen in the body.

[2Sox]

Free test and total test increase when using an AI because estrogen comes from testosterone. That is testosterone is converted into estrogen.
The body produces an enzyme that is used in this conversion. AI's either destroy this enzyme or bind to the enzyme making in unusable. Since there is now less of this enzyme available, less testosterone gets converted into estrogen. Since less testosterone gets converted into estrogen, more testosterone is circulating in the body.

Side note: the enzyme is produced in fat cells (especially stomach fat?). For this reason, overweight people are often advised against using steroids since they will more likely suffer from the side effects of excess estrogen in the body.

Your comment is logically developed. But how would you comment on the information I posted in #11 above - which is accepted universally in TRT?

[bass]

Free test and total test increase when using an AI because estrogen comes from testosterone. That is testosterone is converted into estrogen.
The body produces an enzyme that is used in this conversion. AI's either destroy this enzyme or bind to the enzyme making in unusable. Since there is now less of this enzyme available, less testosterone gets converted into estrogen. Since less testosterone gets converted into estrogen, more testosterone is circulating in the body.

Side note: the enzyme is produced in fat cells (especially stomach fat?). For this reason, overweight people are often advised against using steroids since they will more likely suffer from the side effects of excess estrogen in the body.

who cares, you lower e2 you increase testosterone! the end

[powerlifterty16]

Your comment is logically developed. But how would you comment on the information I posted in #11 above - which is accepted universally in TRT?

is that from shippens old book? i know shippen wrote a book yearsssssss ago back before he even liked injections.

[powerlifterty16]

ai's increase testosterone by preventing it from being turned into e2 via aromatization...i think the question on whether e2 decreases free test can also be answered by asking if e2 raises shbg which i think it does.

speaking of fat cells i have always heard that you cant get rid of fat cells you can only shrink them i was just wondering why that is bad? if you lose weight and shrink fat cells who cares if they are still in your body?