can Clomid restarts work?

AD · 11-21-2013, 03:27 AM

Depending on dosage, clomid can usually double your baseline.

**PJS19** · 11-22-2013, 09:12 AM

Question. Why isnt tamoxifin and clomid used together for restarts? I keep reading that in PCT they enhance eachother and both are needed, so wouldnt it be the same for a restart? Im not saying I am right, I am more looking to be educated. Or is it just because most doctors arent familiar with tamoxifin used for men?

**dhickey** · 11-22-2013, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by dreadnok89

Lol I'm no expert but that doesn't make sense to me! Total T and free T are totally different. Why would they have a free T category if all you had to do was raise your T? I'm telling you man since taking vitamin D and exestamane my shbg went down and I don't convert my T to much E.

Before that free t was always in the tank. No matter how high I was

Total and Free T are not totally different. Free T is Total T minus what's bound and not available. Lowering E2 would raise total and Free T. Lowering SHBG would raise Free T.

To say clomid would raise Total T but not Free T is false unless it also raised SHBG at a surprising rate. Just like injecting T, if you take the proper steps to address E2 (and SHBG as a side effect), clomid would raise Free T along with Total T. If you're not primary that is.

**PJS19** · 11-22-2013, 11:30 AM

Also, when they say clomid doesnt decrease estro but mitigates its affects, does that mean purely at the hypothalmus? Or everywhere in the body? My joints are clicking and popping like crazy.

**Vettester** · 11-22-2013, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by dreadnok89

Free t is trickier than that. I had 200 total t and raised to 900 total t and the free t stayed at 1, on a scale from 1 to 25. Estrogen binds it up a lot too

Free testosterone is relative to total serum by its percentage (%) value. The total amount of free testosterone that is bio available is usually in the 1% to 4% range of total serum, 2% to 3% usually being in the optimal zone. Factors like SHBG and albumin will obviously dictate how much testosterone in the body is bound to the globular proteins. So, if total serum is 200ng/dl or 900ng/dl, you will find the free testosterone amount to usually fall in that 1% to 4% range as well.

**PJS19** · 11-27-2013, 09:19 AM

update...after a month on clomid 25mg eod

TT 620 (350-1200) before 370
E2 45 (10-42) NON sensitive before 22
SHBG 55 (12-90) Before 46

More blood work in 3 months.

I also take vitamin D 10,000 ius everyday. Are there other ways to lower SHBG?

Symptoms have not changed, DEPRESSION, joint popping/clicking/weakness.

These levels are decent, and I think it might be time for me to cave in and try an anti depressant, as its been 8 months now and I dont feel better regardless if my T is 300, 600, 1500 etc.

**dhickey** · 11-27-2013, 10:22 AM

I would strongly consider lowering E2 before trying an anti-D. You need to cut that in half. It would be good to get the proper E2 test as well. They're cheap if you need to buy it on your own.

Some think Anastrozle doesn't mix well with Clomid, so might want to try Aromasin . Lowering E2 should also lower SHBG. Should increase total T, free T and make you feel better.

If you don't want to do an AI you could try calcium d-glucarate and boron. Doubt it would bring you down enough though.

**PJS19** · 11-27-2013, 10:43 AM

Thanks for the advice dhickey. Only thing is Ive read that the non sensitive test usually is 10-20 higher than sensitive. If thats the case Im actually in a decent range. Joints are still an issue. Can you elaborate on the calcium thing? I havent heard of that before? Thanks!

**PJS19** · 11-29-2013, 07:31 AM

Guys, any chance the e2 reading isnt accurate at all? Ive read per Crisler that e2 cant be measured while on clomid. Is there a chance that my e2 really didnt go from 22 to 45 (non sensitive) and I am still low on e2. Joints are still cracking and popping everywhere. After about 2 weeks of clomid the joint symptoms started to dissapear but they came back after a couple days. Or does the body need time to address symptoms when adding hormone. Thanks

**dhickey** · 11-29-2013, 08:12 AM

never heard that e2 can't be measured when on clomid. You should get the proper test and address from there.

**kelkel** · 11-29-2013, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by PJS19

update...after a month on clomid 25mg eod

TT 620 (350-1200) before 370
E2 45 (10-42) NON sensitive before 22
SHBG 55 (12-90) Before 46

More blood work in 3 months.

I also take vitamin D 10,000 ius everyday. Are there other ways to lower SHBG?

Symptoms have not changed, DEPRESSION, joint popping/clicking/weakness.

These levels are decent, and I think it might be time for me to cave in and try an anti depressant, as its been 8 months now and I dont feel better regardless if my T is 300, 600, 1500 etc.

Quickest way to lower shbg is to elevate testosterone . Vit D will help over time as can stinging nettle root. There are prescriptions available such as Danazol which will lower it but it's a temp fix.

**PJS19** · 11-29-2013, 10:42 AM

Thanks kelkel. Only problem is although clomid raises T, isnt it known to raise shbg? Also, on that scale my shbg isnt terrible since 90 is the highest, but on othet scales 50 is the high point. Should I just go by scale and assume my 56 read is not that bad?

**Vettester** · 11-29-2013, 11:31 AM

You really need to work closely with a physician on this. Other underlying variables could be a factor, ranging from metabolic issues over to potential thyroid /autoimmune problems, which can all have a correlation on SHBG, and cellular activity with the liver, kidneys, adrenals, etc. There could be other markers or inflammation in other areas that will lead to this piece of the puzzle. Could also involve your diet and lifestyle routine, which I don't find much on, but I could have overlooked. It might be a 1-2-3 simple fix, add some of things Kel mentioned, increase your Omegas, etc., wa la. Or maybe not. Labs, and more labs are where it sits. The body wants to achieve a normal balance, the mystery is what's keeping it from reaching that?

**kelkel** · 11-29-2013, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Vettester

You really need to work closely with a physician on this. Other underlying variables could be a factor, ranging from metabolic issues over to potential thyroid /autoimmune problems, which can all have a correlation on SHBG, and cellular activity with the liver, kidneys, adrenals, etc. There could be other markers or inflammation in other areas that will lead to this piece of the puzzle. Could also involve your diet and lifestyle routine, which I don't find much on, but I could have overlooked. It might be a 1-2-3 simple fix, add some of things Kel mentioned, increase your Omegas, etc., wa la. Or maybe not. Labs, and more labs are where it sits. The body wants to achieve a normal balance, the mystery is what's keeping it from reaching that?

We're hoping for this!

PJS you can only judge by the scale you have. Don't try and compare one test range to another as you'll drive yourself nuts. To answer your question, yes it raises shbg. It has no choice as shbg rises in conjunction with estrogen.

**PJS19** · 11-29-2013, 12:16 PM

Thanks for the advice kelkel and vettester. Just to clarify, my thyroid/adrenals are fine. Had complete thyroid panel done and it looked good. Had a 4 point cortisol test done and cortisol was in range at each point in the day. DHEA S was also good. Liver/Kidneys also looked good. I supplement with vitamin D (10,000 ius dialy) omega 3, and a multivitamin.

My diet is clean, I completely cut out candy/sweets/white flour/bread, for 3 months now and for the most part gluten(except for trace amounts). I get my carbs from grains like rolled oats, quonioa, brown rice. I eat fruits and veggies, drink plenty of water. I eat whole eggs and meat. No milk/cheese.

I work out every morning, usually 30 minutes straight of high rep low weight movements. I have to do it right when I wake up or the depression would swallow me in the morning. I am on the ice (I am a hockey coach/skills instructor) 4 nights a week, and I am a strength and conditioning coach, so I am pretty active. Im 23, I used to drink beer occasionally on some weekends, but not anymore. And I have never done a drug in my life, never smoked weed, never smoked a cigerate.

I do all of this with a quality of life of literally ZERO so its very difficult to keep trying to find answers. I have had nutravel test done, which tests a ton of different things like amino acids, omegas, vitamin deficiencys, intoxication, yeast, etc etc. Some flaws there, but nothing alarming. Low on some amino acids and vitamin b6, but besides that everything was good. One problem I havent looked into yet is my stool is almost never solid, so there could be something wrong digestively, although i dont have stomach pain.

Ive basically spent the last 8 months trying to solve the answer to the depression, as not being able to experience joy/anything good, makes life monotonous, boring, and painful. My life itself is really good, so I am trying to find out what the hells wrong in my brain that is causing me to feel this way.

Thanks for all your help, hopefully I can figure this thing out soon.

too add: my endo thinks my depression is because I have depression, like a diabetic has diabetes. not because low T. He thinks the depression is causing low T not other way around and that Im naturally on the lower end anyways. My primary feels the same way.