When Total T and Free T are "Too High"

[2Sox]

For the last two months my labs from Quest have been consistently "high" - according to both my doctors (one is my allergist and friend -who writes me scripts for extensive BW.) (The other is the Dr. who writes me Test Cyp.)

Total T: 1177 Range: 250-1100
Free T: 267 Range: 35-155
Estradiol: <2 Range: <OR=29 (I'd feel more comfortable with a number but Quest apparently doesn't give one.)

All my other numbers are in range.
I gave blood twice this year and my hematocrit is at 47%

My protocol: 250iu hCG, EOD. Test Cyp, 36mg EOD - both on alternating days. Anastrozole (liquid): .26mg E3D. I take DIM, Zinc, Copper daily and supplement with DHEA 3 days a week and Pregnenolone daily. 10mg Cialis a day in the evenings.

On some days I'm hornier than others but other than that, and some manageable acne, I feel great. I'm 66 going on thirty. ;-)

So my question to you all is this: What really is "too high"? Or is there any such thing? These doctors did seem rather concerned.

Is there is any danger in a protocol such as mine which gets me to these numbers - or at the very least, is there a downside? I don't see it - but I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

[kelkel]

As long as your RBC's are in order and it's not a constant battle with them then all is probably well. If you reduced it a small amount you wouldn't feel the difference, imho.
What exactly is your E2 level?

[dreadnok89]

All bull bro. You feel good, all that matters

[Machdiesel]

Have you had BW done with different protocols? Curious if 100mg split
Up into EOD shots would give higher T amount then 2x a week

[2Sox]

Thank you, guys. This is reassuring.

Kel,
My estradiol is above in my original post. That's all that was written on the report. No real number so I can't figure where I'm at other than feeling pretty good.

I'm due for some BW at my urologist's office and his lab comes back with real numbers for estradiol. I also need to get a copy of the labs from my TRT doc which reports numbers on estradiol too. I'll report back.

Mach,
Actually I came down from 40mg EOD which took my TT range up to 1300. So I dialed it down to where I am now. I probably could go a little lower to get rid of this bothersome acne.

Question: How is it that my Free T is so high???

[GSXRvi6]

For my doc when RBC is climbing out of range and E2, that's too much, kept slowly backing my dose down until both were stable, and that's where I sit now.

[xcraider37]

Thank you, guys. This is reassuring.

Kel,
My estradiol is above in my original post. That's all that was written on the report. No real number so I can't figure where I'm at other than feeling pretty good.

I'm due for some BW at my urologist's office and his lab comes back with real numbers for estradiol. I also need to get a copy of the labs from my TRT doc which reports numbers on estradiol too. I'll report back.

Mach,
Actually I came down from 40mg EOD which took my TT range up to 1300. So I dialed it down to where I am now. I probably could go a little lower to get rid of this bothersome acne.

Question: How is it that my Free T is so high???

I believe if your e2 doesn't show a number you have pretty much bottomed out and it wasn't measurable. Probably need to rethink your estradiol inhibitor protocol. It says less than 2 not good.

[kelkel]

I believe if your e2 doesn't show a number you have pretty much bottomed out and it wasn't measurable. Probably need to rethink your estradiol inhibitor protocol. It says less than 2 not good.

That's why I was asking.

[Beethoven]

Sox, it looks like your E2 is bottomed out, yet you're still horny? I'm getting ready to start anastrozole because my E2 is at 60. If you feel good is what counts. My Doc doesn't want my E2 lower than 20 ish.

[2Sox]

I believe if your e2 doesn't show a number you have pretty much bottomed out and it wasn't measurable. Probably need to rethink your estradiol inhibitor protocol. It says less than 2 not good.

Good call! I just looked at the lab before this one and I was at 22. Going to extend the AI to every four days and back it to 0.25mg.

[dreadnok89]

But you feel good? Your E2 can't be low for your body then, right?

[2Sox]

That's why I was asking.

I'm glad I was made aware of this. In the beginning, I tried eliminating the anastrozole and began taking DIM, Zinc and copper. When it didn't take effect, (as fast as I would have liked. I was told it would be almost immediate.) I started taking the low dose anastrozole along with it and it seemed to do the trick.

My guess is that the Dim, zinc and copper combination actually did eventually kick in. Then with the added AI, it all started bringing down my E2 levels very low. I don't feel any adverse effects, but I'm guessing that if I continue this E2 control protocol, I eventually will. Do you think I am correct in this assumption?

I'm not exactly sure how to proceed from here. I'm thinking of two things:
1. Continue the D,Z,C protocol and if I feel those high E2 symptoms coming on (I get brain fog, fatigue, and difficulty with vision), only then should I dose.
2. Cut out the D,Z,C protocol and take the AI every three days or so.

I'd prefer the first. Any other suggestions?

[Bonaparte]

Why don't you just try a more basic HRT protocol? Like 50mg 2x weekly and no AI.

[sfgiantsfan55]

For the last two months my labs from Quest have been consistently "high" - according to both my doctors (one is my allergist and friend -who writes me scripts for extensive BW.) (The other is the Dr. who writes me Test Cyp.)

Total T: 1177 Range: 250-1100
Free T: 267 Range: 35-155
Estradiol: <2 Range: <OR=29 (I'd feel more comfortable with a number but Quest apparently doesn't give one.)

All my other numbers are in range.
I gave blood twice this year and my hematocrit is at 47%

My protocol: 250iu hCG, EOD. Test Cyp, 36mg EOD - both on alternating days. Anastrozole (liquid): .26mg E3D. I take DIM, Zinc, Copper daily and supplement with DHEA 3 days a week and Pregnenolone daily. 10mg Cialis a day in the evenings.

On some days I'm hornier than others but other than that, and some manageable acne, I feel great. I'm 66 going on thirty. ;-)

So my question to you all is this: What really is "too high"? Or is there any such thing? These doctors did seem rather concerned.

Is there is any danger in a protocol such as mine which gets me to these numbers - or at the very least, is there a downside? I don't see it - but I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

first of all im jealous of your numbers and im 43! congrats... just wondering how the heck you are doing that much hcg and your e2 is still sub 2? also, how is a 66yo man getting a legal script for test if you are +1100?... just a quick gander on the net shows that at that age normal is about 550. yes i know it fluctuates.

just curious... way to kick ass at 66!

[2Sox]

first of all im jealous of your numbers and im 43! congrats... just wondering how the heck you are doing that much hcg and your e2 is still sub 2? also, how is a 66yo man getting a legal script for test if you are +1100?... just a quick gander on the net shows that at that age *normal is about 550. yes i know it fluctuates.

just curious... way to kick ass at 66!

Thanks for the encouragement, but I just want to feel like I did years ago.
That's why I started this thread. I'd like to see a good discussion about what is "too high" and if this idea exists at all.

To answer your questions:
My baseline reading when I began TRT was 240. I'm sure other guys had it worse, but I don't have to describe to you what I felt like then.

*The most well known and well written TRT specialists will tell you that "normal" is a very misused term and is meaningless.

My E2 is sub2 because of my E2 control protocol described above and which is of concern to me. That's why I asked those questions in post #12 above.

The amount of hCG I take, IMO, is not really that much. A very common protocol I've seen described here many times is 500iu twice a week, or 250iu three times a week. I don't think my dose is excessive. I'm under one and over the other: Over 14 days, I average 875iu a week.

[2Sox]

Why don't you just try a more basic HRT protocol? Like 50mg 2x weekly and no AI.

That is a very good suggestion. Before I answer, first for a little background:

After being on the patch and gels for a few months (Patch brought my level up to 1200! Two pumps of Androgel got me into the 800s when I began, but I had to increase to 3-4 pumps/day to maintain that later on.)

A few months later I started shots at a mens clinic here in NYC. Started me off at 100mg Test Cyp once a week and .5mg anastrozole every 3.5 days. Couldn't figure out why I HAD to go to sleep shortly after the clinic visit. Only later did I learn from this forum that the AI was knocking down my E2 so low that I felt like crap.

After a month, my numbers were in the 500s but it didn't do anything for my libido. They said the minimum goal for their patients was 700. They were going to up me to 120mg a week but I left to go to another Dr. who I have now. All the while, I'm learning from this forum.

This doc's protocol is archaic but he writes me for a 10mL vial of Test Cyp every 8 weeks and I do what's necessary. (Age, gray hair, and a little insistence has its advantages, I guess.) He and his NP know what I inject - but they don't know about the ai or the hCG (which they don't think is necessary and refuse to write for.) They'd write for an ai if it was necessary but I don't like to depend on their good graces to get it.

So you could say I'm "self medicating" through the knowledge and guidance of the experienced members on this forum.

Back to your original question. At this point in time, I'm not sure 50mg 2x weekly is any more "basic" than any other protocol - knowing what we all know now. I did try it though, in the beginning - sub Q. I didn't really feel much different. In hindsight, I do think I was impatient and didn't give it a chance. Played around with different doses and frequencies and I landed here.

The only thing I'm set on is the frequency of dose because I like the steady state. The dose itself if negotiable. I have the feeling I should go lower and that's why I began this thread - to get as much feedback and as many suggestions as possible.

I'd also like to know what is meant by "superphysiological". (Sometimes I see it as (supraphysiological")

[17chester6]

You asked:
I'd also like to know what is meant by "superphysiological". (Sometimes I see it as (supraphysiological")[/QUOTE]



Supra means above or more than and physiology is basically the study of how an organism works. So "supra(super)physiological" would mean higher than normal values.

[jomamma007]

That is a very good suggestion. Before I answer, first for a little background:

After being on the patch and gels for a few months (Patch brought my level up to 1200! Two pumps of Androgel got me into the 800s when I began, but I had to increase to 3-4 pumps/day to maintain that later on.)

A few months later I started shots at a mens clinic here in NYC. Started me off at 100mg Test Cyp once a week and .5mg anastrozole every 3.5 days. Couldn't figure out why I HAD to go to sleep shortly after the clinic visit. Only later did I learn from this forum that the AI was knocking down my E2 so low that I felt like crap.

After a month, my numbers were in the 500s but it didn't do anything for my libido. They said the minimum goal for their patients was 700. They were going to up me to 120mg a week but I left to go to another Dr. who I have now. All the while, I'm learning from this forum.

This doc's protocol is archaic but he writes me for a 10mL vial of Test Cyp every 8 weeks and I do what's necessary. (Age, gray hair, and a little insistence has its advantages, I guess.) He and his NP know what I inject - but they don't know about the ai or the hCG (which they don't think is necessary and refuse to write for.) They'd write for an ai if it was necessary but I don't like to depend on their good graces to get it.

So you could say I'm "self medicating" through the knowledge and guidance of the experienced members on this forum.

Back to your original question. At this point in time, I'm not sure 50mg 2x weekly is any more "basic" than any other protocol - knowing what we all know now. I did try it though, in the beginning - sub Q. I didn't really feel much different. In hindsight, I do think I was impatient and didn't give it a chance. Played around with different doses and frequencies and I landed here.

The only thing I'm set on is the frequency of dose because I like the steady state. The dose itself if negotiable. I have the feeling I should go lower and that's why I began this thread - to get as much feedback and as many suggestions as possible.

I'd also like to know what is meant by "superphysiological". (Sometimes I see it as (supraphysiological")

ditch the ai, lower dose to 50mgs twice per week. You're only on 126mgs per week right now. This will put you around 900 probably. The reason you were in the 500's was probably because you were doing once a week injections, testing at a trough...

[BallSak]

I would back off the AI for a month or so and see if you feel better then. If your E2 number is accurate then you will feel a lot better after you've let your Estrogen rise. Injecting EOD shouldn't necessitate much of an AI if any as it is.

[2Sox]

ditch the ai, lower dose to 50mgs twice per week. You're only on 126mgs per week right now. This will put you around 900 probably. The reason you were in the 500's was probably because you were doing once a week injections, testing at a trough...

Yes, I'm discontinuing the AI - for now. I'm also lowering the dose to 34mg EOD. I have blood work coming up in about two weeks and I'll see where I stand. I'm guessing that my E2 dropped to where it is because of the cumulative effect of the AI. I'm very sensitive to E so I'll know if and when symptoms return - even without seeing numbers. But I'm hopeful that the DIM, zinc, copper will do the trick and I'll not need and AI. We'll see. If need be, I'll take an AI less frequently or reduce the dose. *I'd be grateful for some suggestions from people here about this.

At the previous clinic I went to, I was tested the day of the injection (before it) so I guess it was at the trough. It is my understanding that this is standard for once weekly injections.

[kelkel]

ditch the ai, lower dose to 50mgs twice per week. You're only on 126mgs per week right now. This will put you around 900 probably. The reason you were in the 500's was probably because you were doing once a week injections, testing at a trough...

Agree with this.

[2Sox]

Agree with this.

Giving this serious consideration.

[kelkel]

Giving this serious consideration.

Unless you're a hyper-excreter there's really no reason to over complicate it.

[2Sox]

Unless you're a hyper-excreter there's really no reason to over complicate it.

How can you tell if you're a hyper excreter?

[sfgiantsfan55]

How can you tell if you're a hyper excreter?

my 6 mo old puppy is a hyper excreter, good thing hes so damn cute!

[kelkel]

Blood work indicating the test is metabolized far more rapidly than normal.

[2Sox]

Blood work indicating the test is metabolized far more rapidly than normal.

There's that word "normal", again. ;-) Can you give an example?

[kelkel]

Simply that on a "normal" protocol of every 7 days or 3.5 days when you pull BW prior to the next injection your levels are basically "tanked" compared to someone who metabolizes at the usual (avoided normal) rate. This would make you suspect this is happening and further BW closer to injection time would be prudent to actually diagnose it. There's really not many hyper's out there, at least from what I've seen / read. A hyper-E would just metabolize it at an accelerated rate requiring a more frequent protocol.

[2Sox]

Simply that on a "normal" protocol of every 7 days or 3.5 days when you pull BW prior to the next injection your levels are basically "tanked" compared to someone who metabolizes at the usual (avoided normal) rate. This would make you suspect this is happening and further BW closer to injection time would be prudent to actually diagnose it. There's really not many hyper's out there, at least from what I've seen / read. A hyper-E would just metabolize it at an accelerated rate requiring a more frequent protocol.

Thanks. So according to your explanation, it takes some watching for awhile to really find out if a person is a hyper excreter.

[kelkel]

Thanks. So according to your explanation, it takes some watching for awhile to really find out if a person is a hyper excreter.

An astute doc would have a clue after a few blood pulls. Think of it this way:

BW on initial protocol. Low results
Increase T: still low results
Shorten injection time: Still low

Odds are....

[Brett N]

Thanks for the encouragement, but I just want to feel like I did years ago.
That's why I started this thread. I'd like to see a good discussion about what is "too high" and if this idea exists at all.

To answer your questions:
My baseline reading when I began TRT was 240. I'm sure other guys had it worse, but I don't have to describe to you what I felt like then.

*The most well known and well written TRT specialists will tell you that "normal" is a very misused term and is meaningless.

My E2 is sub2 because of my E2 control protocol described above and which is of concern to me. That's why I asked those questions in post #12 above.

The amount of hCG I take, IMO, is not really that much. A very common protocol I've seen described here many times is 500iu twice a week, or 250iu three times a week. I don't think my dose is excessive. I'm under one and over the other: Over 14 days, I average 875iu a week.

From what I have found and my own RX - 250iu HCG 2x a week is pretty standard for TRT. That is even when someone is doing a cycle or blasting too.


You are pinning a lot. Guess it doesn't bother you at all though. Simple works better for. Test injection 50mg every Mon pm and Fri am. AI (anastrozole 1/4mg) every Tues PM and HCG 250iu every Wed and Sat.

I have to agree that if you could lower your dose just a bit and lose that AI, it would probably be better for you in the long run and you'd feel the same.

[2Sox]

From what I have found and my own RX - 250iu HCG 2x a week is pretty standard for TRT. That is even when someone is doing a cycle or blasting too.


You are pinning a lot. Guess it doesn't bother you at all though. Simple works better for. Test injection 50mg every Mon pm and Fri am. AI (anastrozole 1/4mg) every Tues PM and HCG 250iu every Wed and Sat.

I have to agree that if you could lower your dose just a bit and lose that AI, it would probably be better for you in the long run and you'd feel the same.

Thank you. Been thinking about these things for awhile. Already lowered to 34mg EOD. Started yesterday. Over 14 days, it averages to 119 every week. Will lower hCG to 250iu, 3 days a week. Blood work due in two weeks and if need be I'll lower it some more. DEFINITELY want to lose that AI.