clomid instead of HCG??????

went to my new doc for first appointment today and he asked me how attached to my hcg i was. i told him all the research ive done points to it being commonplace with responsible TRT protocol. he suggested there arent any studies that show evidence of it being very cost effective for men not trying to still have children and suggested i research a bit more to see if it is really worth the money considering i dont plan to have any more children.

he also mentioned using clomid instead. said it would keep my E2 lower and that in turn may stimulate my testes to produce testosterone as well as prevent atrophy. never heard of this and wanted to see what yall thought??

clomid instead of hcg for men on TRT who dont plan on having any more children??

I doubt it would make much of a difference in your E2. But it would probably raise your SHBG. Crisler is not sold on this yet. Read his HCG Update. Better yet, give a copy to your doc.

Others more knowledgeable will chime in but i think that is wrong wrong wrong

Kel u seem familiar with this? Is it new?

Not many doc's use it "in place" of hcg. Not necessary IMHO and doesn't offer the other subjective benefits that HCG does.

Mine is not very keen on HcG... He also wants to treat with Chlomid...

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Originally Posted by kelkel

Not many doc's use it "in place" of hcg. Not necessary IMHO and doesn't offer the other subjective benefits that HCG does.

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To docs credit he did write script for hcg and told me to look into it abd see what i think. U got a link kel?

Search up Crislers HCG Update. Long term there's no reason not to use HCG.

Chlomid does raise estrogen tho

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Originally Posted by dreadnok89

Chlomid does raise estrogen tho

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Yes, via the ER in the hypothalamus. It basically tricks it.

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Originally Posted by kelkel

Search up Crislers HCG Update. Long term there's no reason not to use HCG.

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Will do thx

Clomid only protocol of 25 mg eod for 6 weeks did not raise my e2. It stayed at 11.

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Originally Posted by jasondd1

Clomid only protocol of 25 mg eod for 6 weeks did not raise my e2. It stayed at 11.

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well testing with clomid in your system isn't very accurate as it tends to skew estrogen results.
Also everybody's different.

Im surprised. I dont see them doing the same thing , esp when shut down. just my 2 cents.
Also while clomid may raise e2 it is a bit of a "false" reading if you will as levels may increase but neg e effects may well not. Ill let the trt experts like kel handle this but those are just a few thoughts I have.

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Originally Posted by kelkel

I doubt it would make much of a difference in your E2. But it would probably raise your SHBG. Crisler is not sold on this yet. Read his HCG Update. Better yet, give a copy to your doc.

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how sure are you that clomid raises SHBG and how much? to be honest I been doing pharma grade hCG for about a year now and I don't see good results despite changing protocols and what not. I am interested to see if clomid is another alternative.

It will. It's obviously dose dependent and I should have clarified that more when I said "I doubt it would make much of a difference in E2." The more you take, the more it can elevate E and when E rises, so will SHBG. Some doc's are starting to use it instead of testosterone. I just haven't seen many do it with testosterone. Love to see someone here try it and note it's effects....

Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hy... [BJU Int. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

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Originally Posted by kelkel

It will. It's obviously dose dependent and I should have clarified that more when I said "I doubt it would make much of a difference in E2." The more you take, the more it can elevate E and when E rises, so will SHBG. Some doc's are starting to use it instead of testosterone. I just haven't seen many do it with testosterone. Love to see someone here try it and note it's effects....

Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hy... [BJU Int. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

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you mean try it to see it's effects on the boys?

It would be interesting to see how someone here responds, yes.

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Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Im surprised. I dont see them doing the same thing , esp when shut down. just my 2 cents.
Also while clomid may raise e2 it is a bit of a "false" reading if you will as levels may increase but neg e effects may well not. Ill let the trt experts like kel handle this but those are just a few thoughts I have.

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Hey could you elaborate more on what you mean by even though e2 is elevated negative e2 effects may not be?

Im on clomid 25 eod and despite T and e seemingly being in good ranges, I dont feel at all better

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Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Im surprised. I dont see them doing the same thing , esp when shut down. just my 2 cents.
Also while clomid may raise e2 it is a bit of a "false" reading if you will as levels may increase but neg e effects may well not. Ill let the trt experts like kel handle this but those are just a few thoughts I have.

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Always appreciate your input and wish you'd venture here more often Jimmy. And yes, two different pathways here....

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Originally Posted by bass

how sure are you that clomid raises SHBG and how much? to be honest I been doing pharma grade hCG for about a year now and I don't see good results despite changing protocols and what not. I am interested to see if clomid is another alternative.

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Some people can just under-respond to it Bass. Also as we age we "can" become less sensitive to it as well. It can just happen. Rather nuts how that happens.

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Originally Posted by PJS19

Hey could you elaborate more on what you mean by even though e2 is elevated negative e2 effects may not be?

Im on clomid 25 eod and despite T and e seemingly being in good ranges, I dont feel at all better

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I'll add that it's why guys like Crisler and Vergel aren't really in favor of it long term. The subjective benefits of T therapy just are not there.

Kelkel, if clomid "works" on paper for me but doesnt address symptoms what other options are left for a 23 year old? HCG monotherapy? Or just try TRT and if that doesnt help me than i could always go back on clomid.

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Originally Posted by kelkel

It will. It's obviously dose dependent and I should have clarified that more when I said "I doubt it would make much of a difference in E2." The more you take, the more it can elevate E and when E rises, so will SHBG. Some doc's are starting to use it instead of testosterone. I just haven't seen many do it with testosterone. Love to see someone here try it and note it's effects....

Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hy... [BJU Int. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

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yeh he mentioned running the clomid instead of the test if i still wanted kids and maybe some other factors. interesting. my theory is if it aint broke dont fix it and my protocol has been working well up to this point.

i am interested to see if he finds we can tweek my thyroid though. would be nice to have a higher metabolic rate! :)

He's talking about using chlomid while on T correct?

I am a sixty one year old male athlete wanting to raise my testosterone using Clomid. From age 45 to 58 I was on TRT 100mg per week but stopped due to a bout with prostate cancer, in which my prostate gland was removed via DaVinci robot. Following three years of zero indications of relapse and a post surgical biopsy report indicating all margins were clear I was advised by my doctors that it was safe to try TRT again.

But after reading dozens and dozens of posted studies touting Clomid as a better alternative to shots, creams and gels I began with 25mg of Clomid per day for two months. Before beginning, my test level was 530 and estrodiol 37. At the end of the two months, my test jumped to 740 and estrodiol to 47. Then I stopped for a month to see what would happen and am now awaiting those test results.

My concern is what the rise in estrodiol will have on my body and so forth. That is, will I develop breasts or have other negative symptoms? Is 47 high for estrodiol?

No, estrodiol readings usually run higher than sensitive readings. I been told this on this site

Agree with Dreadnok. Get a sensitive E2 assay and then adjust accordingly. People don't necessarily develop breasts just because they have high estrogen. Get the proper test performed and if an AI is needed as all you can try supplements such as DIM, Zinc and Copper first.

Thanks. And what is DIM? I got my results back and after stopping Clomid for three weeks, my Testosterone went even slightly higher. This and my climbing estrodiol indicated that maybe I was on too high a dosage so I am back on but 25mg every other day.
Also, what is the difference between Free Testosterone and total testosterone? Which number is more significant?

I use low dose Clomid as part of my TRT regimen, and it works really well. My FSH and LH are usually midrange on my labs at a TRT dosage of 150mg/week. I would argue that Clomid is better than HCG since it's actually supporting the HPTA and producing FSH in addition to LH. (HCG mimics LH only and does nothing to prevent HPTA stutdown.)

Also, if you are on Clomid, high estrogen isn't a huge issue because Clomid blocks the effects of estrogen in the breast and fat tissue. I still take a low dose AI on injection days to prevent my testosterone from being wasted by estrogen conversion.

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Originally Posted by slates

I use low dose Clomid as part of my TRT regimen, and it works really well. My FSH and LH are usually midrange on my labs at a TRT dosage of 150mg/week. I would argue that Clomid is better than HCG since it's actually supporting the HPTA and producing FSH in addition to LH. (HCG mimics LH only and does nothing to prevent HPTA stutdown.)

Also, if you are on Clomid, high estrogen isn't a huge issue because Clomid blocks the effects of estrogen in the breast and fat tissue. I still take a low dose AI on injection days to prevent my testosterone from being wasted by estrogen conversion.

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One of the biggest complaints is becoming emotional on chlomid, that's a direct result of estrogen spiking right? How much chlomid you take?

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Originally Posted by bass

you mean try it to see it's effects on the boys?

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just my two centavos but IMO as far as atrophy, hcg didnt do anything for me..... clomid has def woke my boys up for sure...then again, from what ive read, im the exception and nnot the rule.

also as far as costs go, my HCG was 32 bucks a month at a local compounding pharmacy. my generic clomid is 24 bucks at the grocery store pharmacy ( insurance doesnt cover clomid , least mine dont).

i am wondering if clomid isnt contributing to me having some shortness of breath though.... idk.

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Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan55

just my two centavos but IMO as far as atrophy, hcg didnt do anything for me..... clomid has def woke my boys up for sure...then again, from what ive read, im the exception and nnot the rule.

also as far as costs go, my HCG was 32 bucks a month at a local compounding pharmacy. my generic clomid is 24 bucks at the grocery store pharmacy ( insurance doesnt cover clomid , least mine dont).

i am wondering if clomid isnt contributing to me having some shortness of breath though.... idk.

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thanks for the info. yea it seems hCG is having no effect to prevent atrophy for me, so I may try clomid next time and see what happens. not sure about shortness of breath, but are you taking prescription pain killers?

or have you put on alot of size recently?

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Originally Posted by dreadnok89

or have you put on alot of size recently?

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ive put on about 20 lbs of good solid weight over the last 10 months o so (when i started test therapy...havent notice any sob side effects till about 6 weeks ao... all my numbers are WNL...my red blood cells are high normal... not sure what s up.. just seemed to coincide with starting the clomid (but even then its only 25mg 2 x week)..

High rbc and hemoglobin can cause it too. donate blood if you haven't done it yet.

Ya donate man, I did and felt a lot better

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Originally Posted by kelkel

Agree with Dreadnok. Get a sensitive E2 assay and then adjust accordingly. People don't necessarily develop breasts just because they have high estrogen. Get the proper test performed and if an AI is needed as all you can try supplements such as DIM, Zinc and Copper first.

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Thanks. And what is DIM? I got my results back and after stopping Clomid for three weeks, my Testosterone went even slightly higher. This and my climbing estrodiol indicated that maybe I was on too high a dosage so I am back on but 25mg every other day.
Also, what is the difference between Free Testosterone and total testosterone? Which number is more significant?

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Originally Posted by dreadnok89

Ya donate man, I did and felt a lot better

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thanks.. i have an appointment for monday to donate.. hope it works