Im going for it

**PJS19** · 01-04-2014, 08:27 PM

So I decided to come off clomid (25mg eod) and will be starting an injection protocol in about a months time once the clomid clears out. It was my second stint with clomid, both times it brought my levels up, but I didnt feel any different. And when Im not on clomid, my LH is testing between 1-2 every time, and my total test is in the 300s.

Im only 23, so I know some of you might be thinking Im crazy for doing this, but I am doing it on a trial basis. My doctor agreed to let me go on a real TRT protocol, get it dialed in, and if at that point I dont feel better, than we will go back to the clomid.

My quality of life right now is literally zero, so I have nothing to lose. I know alot of people dont get benefits from clomid, so maybe Im in that group, or maybe T isnt my issue, but I wont know until I try. I have struggled very very badly with depression for almost a year now. I keep it to myself, I go about my business with a smile on my face and I didnt just give up. I am trying, so Im not doing this out of being a weak drama queen. I tried very hard, I tried different anti depressants. They all made it worse. Also, my joints are so cracky/popping and weak I cant be as active as I want to be.

When you can't feel joy, life is the utmost struggle. Im hoping I can regain my emotions, I have a great life around me, I just wish I could be a part of it again, and I hope TRT can get me there.

My main concern is that Im going to lose faith too soon if I dont feel a change in a few weeks. So I was hoping guys could let me know how long it took for them to come out of depression (if you had depression as a low T symptom).

I plan to start with 100mg a week with HCG 250 2 days a week. Or should I start with just T and add HCG after first set of blood work?

I really hope this is the answer for me.

Wish me luck! I will check back with blood work.

**64509chvl** · 01-04-2014, 08:48 PM

I never suffered from depression, but most of the other symptoms...lathargic, no drive, motivation, will to do activities without forcing myself, pissy mood often ect. Physically...I look in shape, but could never drop below 16% body fat no matter what & progression on lifts in the gym was rediculous which made me feel even worse, lol! Come to think of it...I just might have been a little depressed

!

I have always been a real active guy, but had to really really push myself for everything. I really wish I did this sooner...I'm 37 now.

You've got a good protocol inline to start with & I wish you the best of luck on improving your quality of life wether you go through with TRT or not!

**2Sox** · 01-05-2014, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by PJS19

So I decided to come off clomid (25mg eod) and will be starting an injection protocol in about a months time once the clomid clears out. It was my second stint with clomid, both times it brought my levels up, but I didnt feel any different. And when Im not on clomid, my LH is testing between 1-2 every time, and my total test is in the 300s.

Im only 23, so I know some of you might be thinking Im crazy for doing this, but I am doing it on a trial basis. My doctor agreed to let me go on a real TRT protocol, get it dialed in, and if at that point I dont feel better, than we will go back to the clomid.

My quality of life right now is literally zero, so I have nothing to lose. I know alot of people dont get benefits from clomid, so maybe Im in that group, or maybe T isnt my issue, but I wont know until I try. I have struggled very very badly with depression for almost a year now. I keep it to myself, I go about my business with a smile on my face and I didnt just give up. I am trying, so Im not doing this out of being a weak drama queen. I tried very hard, I tried different anti depressants. They all made it worse. Also, my joints are so cracky/popping and weak I cant be as active as I want to be.

When you can't feel joy, life is the utmost struggle. Im hoping I can regain my emotions, I have a great life around me, I just wish I could be a part of it again, and I hope TRT can get me there.

My main concern is that Im going to lose faith too soon if I dont feel a change in a few weeks. So I was hoping guys could let me know how long it took for them to come out of depression (if you had depression as a low T symptom).

I plan to start with 100mg a week with HCG 250 2 days a week. Or should I start with just T and add HCG after first set of blood work?

I really hope this is the answer for me.

Wish me luck! I will check back with blood work.

I don't know if you have posted this information elsewhere on the forum, but what diagnostic testing have you had done to determine where your symptoms are arising from? You are extremely young and TRT at you age should only be entered into after very careful consideration.

Regarding your depression: We all know that the mind-body connection is in many ways mysterious and complex and we can't always know what is affecting our state of mind at any given time. The body always affects the mind and vice versa. But from my own experience and in my view, we always have a choice as to how we want to think and behave. It's very easy to blame our state of mind on a physical condition and then swallow a pill. Many physicians are harmful enablers of this.

I've learned that we always have a choice to either find meaning and value in the world around us or see it as a hopeless mess. In other words we are either doing all we can to like the world or we are having contempt for it - making less of things, seeing things as unimportant, valueless and meaningless so we can gain a false superiority. One way makes us proud and happy and the other makes us ashamed and miserable. But even as we are miserable, we are kings and the most important persons alive. In their misery, depressed people are the centers of the universe. Needless to say, I speak from observation and personal knowledge.

I do not want to patronize but I'd like to give some advice. The next time you feel yourself going into a funk, look around and see the simple beauty that surrounds you. I'd suggest you keep a journal and write about the things you like during the course of a day. I do. It has a cumulative good effect.

**tectime** · 01-05-2014, 12:07 PM

Good advice 2sox ! Just look around at the beauty that surrounds us that The Lord has created ! It will always outweigh overrule and outshine any of life's adversities !

**kelkel** · 01-05-2014, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

I don't know if you have posted this information elsewhere on the forum, but what diagnostic testing have you had done to determine where your symptoms are arising from? You are extremely young and TRT at you age should only be entered into after very careful consideration.

Regarding your depression: We all know that the mind-body connection is in many ways mysterious and complex and we can't always know what is affecting our state of mind at any given time. The body always affects the mind and vice versa. But from my own experience and in my view, we always have a choice as to how we want to think and behave. It's very easy to blame our state of mind on a physical condition and then swallow a pill. Many physicians are harmful enablers of this.

I've learned that we always have a choice to either find meaning and value in the world around us or see it as a hopeless mess. In other words we are either doing all we can to like the world or we are having contempt for it - making less of things, seeing things as unimportant, valueless and meaningless so we can gain a false superiority. One way makes us proud and happy and the other makes us ashamed and miserable. But even as we are miserable, we are kings and the most important persons alive. In their misery, depressed people are the centers of the universe. Needless to say, I speak from observation and personal knowledge.

I do not want to patronize but I'd like to give some advice. The next time you feel yourself going into a funk, look around and see the simple beauty that surrounds you. I'd suggest you keep a journal and write about the things you like during the course of a day. I do. It has a cumulative good effect.

Your background shines through in that diatribe 2Sox. No doubt you were impressive in your prior career!

To the op. Did you ever find a causative factor?

**PJS19** · 01-05-2014, 12:33 PM

2sox and tectime. With all due respect, and 2sox judging by this post and your other posts, you are a very wise man and have a lot of great advice to offer, but you both really are belittling what I am going through.

Tectime, I am very very aware that the world is a beautiful place. Believe me, I know that. I just cant FEEL the beauty. I dont expect anyone to understand what its like to have no emotions, I certaintly wouldnt be able to understand until this happened to me. Believe me, I want to feel, and love and enjoy, but its as if my brain has lost the powers to do that.

Depression isnt a feeling, it is a NON feeling. Unless you have experienced real depression, its hard to understand that. Being cynical about the world or thinking its a big mess isnt depression.

Cognitively I am very very aware how great of a place life is, and thats why this is all the more harder to go through and why I want to fix it as soon as possible. Im not miserable, I just cant feel anything, and thats what depression is, not being miserable.

Again, thank you for the advice, and I will of course try to stay positive about my situation, but in my case happiness isnt a choice for me. My life situation is actually really really good. I mean no disrespect at all, Im just saying, you arent completely understanding my condition.

Believe me, Ive always been a believer that adverstiy is good and helps you grow, but that isnt the case here, this isnt adversity.

**armyranger516862006** · 01-05-2014, 12:54 PM

Damn! Love the Avatar Kelkel!

**2Sox** · 01-05-2014, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by PJS19

2sox and tectime. With all due respect, and 2sox judging by this post and your other posts, you are a very wise man and have a lot of great advice to offer, but you both really are belittling what I am going through.

Tectime, I am very very aware that the world is a beautiful place. Believe me, I know that. I just cant FEEL the beauty. I dont expect anyone to understand what its like to have no emotions, I certaintly wouldnt be able to understand until this happened to me. Believe me, I want to feel, and love and enjoy, but its as if my brain has lost the powers to do that.

Depression isnt a feeling, it is a NON feeling. Unless you have experienced real depression, its hard to understand that. Being cynical about the world or thinking its a big mess isnt depression.

Cognitively I am very very aware how great of a place life is, and thats why this is all the more harder to go through and why I want to fix it as soon as possible. Im not miserable, I just cant feel anything, and thats what depression is, not being miserable.

Again, thank you for the advice, and I will of course try to stay positive about my situation, but in my case happiness isnt a choice for me. My life situation is actually really really good. I mean no disrespect at all, Im just saying, you arent completely understanding my condition.

Believe me, Ive always been a believer that adverstiy is good and helps you grow, but that isnt the case here, this isnt adversity.

PJ,

It's nearly imposssible to know a person from a few posts on a forum. No one can possibly know exactly how you have felt this past year just from the descriptions you have given. Nevertheless, each of us - in our own way - tries to be useful based on the facts given. Stating the obvious; my purpose was to point something out to you that I was certain would be useful to you - and to others. It was not meant to "belittle" - I believe a poor choice of words on your part. (And I'm just as certain that Tectime wanted to have a good effect as well.) Perhaps you meant to say "insensitive". But I feel that would be just as inaccurate because I do have some sense of the pain you are experiencing. (And your description is that of a person very much in pain - which one might also call misery.)

I'm not a medical practitioner and I can't diagnose what is going on with you, but I do know we all have the power of conscious choice, and I believe you are not exercising your free will to choose.

You can be alone and distinguished in your pain, feeling that no one understands what you are going through (and as a result feel terribly important), or you can be just like the rest of the people walking around trying to derive pleasure from the beauty around them - and choose to do so. You may not see it right now, but it really boils down to a simple choice to feel.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'd suggest you re-read my previous post - which was meant to be kind - and give it some more thought.

**SteveUK** · 01-06-2014, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by PJS19

2sox and tectime. With all due respect, and 2sox judging by this post and your other posts, you are a very wise man and have a lot of great advice to offer, but you both really are belittling what I am going through.

Tectime, I am very very aware that the world is a beautiful place. Believe me, I know that. I just cant FEEL the beauty. I dont expect anyone to understand what its like to have no emotions, I certaintly wouldnt be able to understand until this happened to me. Believe me, I want to feel, and love and enjoy, but its as if my brain has lost the powers to do that.

Depression isnt a feeling, it is a NON feeling. Unless you have experienced real depression, its hard to understand that. Being cynical about the world or thinking its a big mess isnt depression.

Cognitively I am very very aware how great of a place life is, and thats why this is all the more harder to go through and why I want to fix it as soon as possible. Im not miserable, I just cant feel anything, and thats what depression is, not being miserable.

Again, thank you for the advice, and I will of course try to stay positive about my situation, but in my case happiness isnt a choice for me. My life situation is actually really really good. I mean no disrespect at all, Im just saying, you arent completely understanding my condition.

Believe me, Ive always been a believer that adverstiy is good and helps you grow, but that isnt the case here, this isnt adversity.

Man depression should not be taken lightly, that feeling of letting everyone down and having no go in life no mater what you do. I feel you man, have been there myself. You can get through it no matter how much at the moment it feels you can not.

**sfgiantsfan55** · 01-06-2014, 10:46 AM

id just like to add a reminder that, all people dont get the same results from the same drugs... test works amazing for me, hcg did not very much, clomid works great but has side effects i think... just saying its alot of trial and error. good luck!

**2Sox** · 01-06-2014, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

To the op. Did you ever find a causative factor?

PJ,
I think if you can answer Kel's question and give more information about you condition along with some blood work, more people can offer advice for you. I hope they do.

I also hope you don't get discouraged at this difficult time. I'm fairly certain that no one on this forum underestimates the debilitating effects of depression - probably because everyone here has experienced it at one time or another in their life. And I'd guess that there are many here who are willing to offer you the benefit of their experience.

This forum is a life saver. I know that I'm personally grateful to the people here who have educated and helped me on my journey. We are all here for each other, so please continue to ask questions and to keep an open mind.

**PJS19** · 01-07-2014, 10:34 AM

Update, I have an MRI scheduled for tomorrow to rule out any pituitary abnormalities that are causing the low LH/T whenever I am not on clomid. They should have done this before but atleast we are doing it now to get ruled out.

Doctors think that the depression is what is dragging my T down. But doctors arent sure yet if it is even depression or another psych disorder, as I dont have typical depression symptoms like lack of appetitie, insomnia, low self esteem. My main symptom is emotional numbness, which may be part of an anxiety disorder or depersonalization disorder.

**kelkel** · 01-07-2014, 10:37 AM

Excellent news getting the MRI!

**PJS19** · 01-07-2014, 10:46 AM

Thanks Kel, I'll let you guys know the results next week, and then when I get blood work in a few weeks Ill post again with those.

Only been off clomid for a week and I already can tell my test is dropping as my knees are already very weak and achy.

Even if testosterone /estrogen isnt my problem, I want to go on TRT until I figure out what the problem is, so that I can atleast feel good physically while I sort this out. Then once I do I can maybe go back to the low dose clomid.

Thanks for all the input

**kelkel** · 01-07-2014, 10:51 AM

Remember if you sign the release at the MRI Facility you should be able to pick up your results yourself, instead of waiting for your next Doc Appt. I can't stand the waiting game. I picked my results up from my MRI within 15 minutes of them calling me.

**PJS19** · 01-07-2014, 10:56 AM

My mri is tomorrow, and my appt is monday. So atleast I wont wait long.

Kel in your experience are these things hard to read? Or will most doctors be able to see problems in it?

Btw doctors denied me an mri for the past 9 months. I bring my mom to one appointment, and the MRI is booked the next day. When the mom shows up for an appt they know its a serious matter.

Also, is it strange for me to be HOPING there is something wrong in there? Then atleast I have an answer to whats happening

**kelkel** · 01-07-2014, 11:01 AM

That's nice and quick. The doctor at the facility will interpret the results and send a report and pic's to your doctor detailing any issues they find. Hopefully none. I still have my screen shots! Take back-up with you more often if you have to. Whatever works!

No, I don't really think it's strange you're looking to find an issue. Pinpointing the issue would be a relief both medically and personally and allow you to move forward with a proper course of treatment. Let us know how you make out please.

**PJS19** · 01-07-2014, 11:05 AM

I will Kel. Also one last question.

Does the fact that clomid worked to increase LH and T show that there probably isnt anythin wrong (even though it always drops after) ? Thats been the reason my doc hasnt ordered it yet, he said since clomid works it shows theres no pathology issues

**kelkel** · 01-07-2014, 11:23 AM

Yes and no, imho. Pathologies don't grow overnight so it's possible there's some type of issue there and worth ruling out. A pathology is not all or nothing. When you're off serms and your T drops what happens to your LH level?

**PJS19** · 01-07-2014, 11:27 AM

Off serms my LH drops somewhere between 1 and 2. And my T and E2 follow suit, dropping into 300s.

On serms I dont feel any better at all, except a little less joint pain.

**kelkel** · 01-07-2014, 11:32 AM

Ok, I was just hoping he wasn't missing something obvious. Look forward to your results.

**PJS19** · 01-07-2014, 11:39 AM

this might be a stupid question, but does having clomid in your system affect an mri at all? I know it works in the pitiutary/hypo but not sure if its something that is seen by an MRI.

**kelkel** · 01-07-2014, 12:17 PM

Not at all.

**PJS19** · 01-13-2014, 09:41 AM

Update. Got results from MRI today. Everything is perfectly fine structurally.

Ive been off clomid for only 2 weeks and I already can tell my levels are tanking because my joints are aching and are very weak, and my back hurts.

So clomid doesnt make me feel better, but raises my T and E. Going off clomid makes T and E crash. So what is my option? Might as well try TRT like I said, despite being 23.