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  1. #1
    miker295 is offline New Member
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    Does this mean I should take more AI or less T?

    I'm still adapting to TRT - I'm now on week 4 and things have smoothed slightly, now that I am on a twice a week dosing schedule, but I am still experiencing the following:

    ...8 - 12 hrs post T shot - start to feel a bit anxious and/or jittery. This past week my shot was 50ml 2x week, which is half of what I had the week before. Jitteryness is undoubtedly better, but still there.
    ...The Morning after T shot I take 1mg AI and literally feel better within an hour or two. That seems to only last the day though, and by the evening the jitteryness starts to come back, though it again has been milder on the lower T dose.
    ...2 days post T shot I don't take anything (unless it happens to be HCG day, which is 250ml every 3 days) and jitteryness is there most of the day. During this period I find I am very susceptible to bouts of anxiousness.
    ...3 days post T shot, which is the last day before I have my next shot, I feel amazing. Definitely in the zone, great energy, libido, etc. This is how I want to feel every day, but after today the cycle starts back at the top.

    Last week the doc recommended cutting the T in half to the current 50ml dose, which I did and I did see improvement. However given that I feel much better on the days when I take the AI I am wondering if it's the estrogen that is causing the problems instead of the T.

    So if you were in my shoes, would you talk to the doc about continuing to reduce the T a bit further, or instead increase the AI? I've heard that 2mg of AI per week is a lot, but I am thinking I would probably feel better if I took AI both morning after and 2 days after, though I haven't heard of anyone essentially taking AI 4 days per week.

  2. #2
    NEFLRick is offline Associate Member
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    Many of the other (more knowledgable people) will chime in I'm sure but, the first thing is to know what your blood work says. Obviously, you aren't going to test your blood ALL of the time or anything but I'd let the people around here take a look at your original numbers and see what they are vs. what you're taking.

    There are so many variables with TRT but, once you start to understand how everything is working in your body, it starts to make sense.

    Sorry I can't be more helpful.

  3. #3
    Beethoven's Avatar
    Beethoven is offline Productive Member
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    What is your complete protocol? I'm assuming 50 ml is 50 mgs but you're taking 1mg of an.AI? Do you have blood work? You should post all of that for a better answer. Your AI dosage seems high but you still need to post complete blood work and protocol.

  4. #4
    miker295 is offline New Member
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    Yeah sorry here you go:

    Prior to treatment:
    Total T 738 (range 332 - 896)
    Free Test 12.4 (range 5-40)
    Estradiol 43 (range 0-56)

    I decided to go on treatment to up the Free T and lower the E2, based on my primary goal to lose fat and secondary goal to build muscle. (Over 10 years of diet + exercise had made little progress compared to effort expended.) Also, I had prior tests that also showed the E2 at the high end of the range but the Total T near the lower end of the range.

    First two weeks of treatment went like this:
    200 mg T-CYP 1x week
    1mg Anastrazole 2x week
    250 ml HCG every 3 days

    I gained 7lbs in those first two weeks and was quite jittery, so doc had me skip the T-shot but kept me on the AI and HCG. The day I skipped the T shot (so 7 days post shot) I had blood work as follows:
    Total T: 932
    Free T: 32.5
    Estrogen: <50 (the lab ran the wrong test here so that's all they provided)

    Week 4 split does into two T shots. I was still pretty jittery but began to lose some of the weight I had gained.

    This week the doc had me halve the T-Cyp but keep the rest unchanged. So here is my current protocol:
    50 mg T-CYP 2x week
    1mg Anastrazole 2x week (the morning after the above shot)
    250 ml HCG every 3 days

    I'm really annoyed the lab ran the wrong test, so I don't know if my E was 49 or 0. I suspect though based on all of my symptoms that my E has been spiking after the shot, and subsides by the end of the cycle, and perhaps the AI is not enough to counter act the effects.

    This past week I've continued to lose weight and feel like I'm on the right track. Progress in the gym is fantastic - now I'm just trying to get to a steady state and avoid the earlier symptoms I described.

  5. #5
    Brett N is offline Senior Member
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    Have to say - your pre TRT numbers look pretty good to me. FreeT may be a little low but I am really shocked that a doctor put you on TRT.
    AI is way too high. I take 1/4mg anastrozole for 50mg X2 a week of test. Members who are doing a full blown steroid cycle take 1/4 eod. That is still less than you.

    You ever think that your anxiety is just you over thinking that you have symptoms? Do needles stress you out?

    I would talk to the doctor about getting a sensitive e test, reducing the testosterone and reducing the AI. This whole protocol is whack IMO. Not trying to come off as the wrong way here but it still seems strange to me that they put you on TRT with those numbers. What were your symptoms before TRT that made you look into it?

  6. #6
    Beethoven's Avatar
    Beethoven is offline Productive Member
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    Your numbers didn't look like low t, 200 mgs each week is probably high considering your numbers. Some more knowledgeable members will come in soon but your free t was low but total t looks good, I don't know you should be on test and certainly not 200 mgs.

  7. #7
    miker295 is offline New Member
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    Thanks Brett. Those numbers were better than a year earlier when I looked like this:
    Total T 392 (range 241-827)
    SHBG 53.8
    FAI 25.3
    Free Test 8.4 LOW (range 8.7 - 25.1)
    Estradiol 48 HIGH (range <47)

    So I had improved over the past year but that was through an exceptionally strict diet and gym routine. My main issue is that I gain fat like nobody's business and find it very difficult to build muscle. I've been low carb the past two years which has been life changing in that I've been able to stabilize my weight for the first time ever (low fat fail, weight watchers fail, vegetarian fail, etc.), but I can't shake the last 15lbs of fat or so no matter how strict I am. And in 10 years of chest presses and I was never able to move past 100lbs - until the past few weeks.

    I really do think these blood tests are just snapshots that are a bit of a roll of the dice, particularly when the levels fluctuate constantly throughout the day. So I'm going on how I feel and what I'm experiencing compared to expected results.

    In terms of anxiety, I'm 110% confident that the recent jitters are related to the T. No doubt whatsoever. That was not even a symptom I was thinking about at the outset of this process.

    What is the difference between the Sensitive E test and the Estridiol tests above? I know the Estrogyn test is pretty much useless, but I thought Estridol was the better test.

    If I need to lower the AI, then why would I generally feel better on the days I take AI as compared to the days I don't?

  8. #8
    FRDave's Avatar
    FRDave is offline Senior Member
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    I personally would stop your protocol and do PCT like those on cycle. Later down the line after getting follow-up blood work done, you can take Zinc and DIM to naturally lower your E2 if still needed (your barely out of range) along with vitamin D (will help lower your SHBG along with the above mentioned zinc & DIM.

    If sticking with TRT, I would continue with 50mg twice per week along with the 250iu HCG 3x per week. I would cut the arimidex down, taking .25mg the day after each test injection, so .5mg per week in total. After you give it some time for your body to adjust (6 weeks minimum), get follow-up blood work and adjust from there. As of now, your body is all over the place as you have made 3 changes in 4 weeks, no where near long enough to establish a base line, and is only going to make it harder to adjust.

    Best of luck. Remember, the above is only my opinion as I am no dr.
    Last edited by FRDave; 01-12-2014 at 06:18 PM.

  9. #9
    Beethoven's Avatar
    Beethoven is offline Productive Member
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    Your t is low. I high estradiol also but my test dose is half yours. The Anastrozol is high though. I take .5 every three days which is still considered a bit high at least to start. 1mg seems pretty high.from what Manny here have said, Craig your E2 can be bad and cause that. I'm sure they will respond soon.

  10. #10
    MArz123 is offline Junior Member
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    I take .75mg twice a week and that keeps my e2 levels at 30 (lab taken day of but before next injection...however my e2 peaks at 60 the day after injection...so to try and combat that ...instead of taking my AI 24hours after injection i moved it up to 12hrs after injection...i have not got labs again yet to see the numbers but i can tell you my morning wood is definitely waaaaaay better if thats any indication, just simply by adjusting the timing....i dont think waiting 24hrs is best for everyone, we all metabolize at different rates...hence tweak it and see what happens..

  11. #11
    miker295 is offline New Member
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    Thanks guys for the feedback. I don't think I will quit as long as I am seeing the positive results I am seeing outside of the jitteryness. I am more looking to stabilize things so maybe I should lower both T and AI somewhat. MArz123 that is a good idea about moving the AI timing up too. I am surprised at how quickly the AI seems to act, and how quickly it goes away too, so perhaps I should do .5mg 4x/wk instead of 1mg 2x/wk? Does anyone out there do something like that? In any case I'll see if things smooth out here with the next few shots...

  12. #12
    xcraider37 is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by miker295 View Post
    Thanks guys for the feedback. I don't think I will quit as long as I am seeing the positive results I am seeing outside of the jitteryness. I am more looking to stabilize things so maybe I should lower both T and AI somewhat. MArz123 that is a good idea about moving the AI timing up too. I am surprised at how quickly the AI seems to act, and how quickly it goes away too, so perhaps I should do .5mg 4x/wk instead of 1mg 2x/wk? Does anyone out there do something like that? In any case I'll see if things smooth out here with the next few shots...
    Good idea on the ai, taking that much of that drug can't be good and could be effecting you in a negative manner. For your dosing of T a .25 2x per wk should work if more is needed after bloods then feel free to add. Follow up with the proper bloods after about 6 weeks.

  13. #13
    Beethoven's Avatar
    Beethoven is offline Productive Member
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    Good idea on the AI, with me it's not just the test but the HCG that really spikes my E2. Got BW coming up this week.

  14. #14
    miker295 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcraider37 View Post
    Good idea on the ai, taking that much of that drug can't be good and could be effecting you in a negative manner. For your dosing of T a .25 2x per wk should work if more is needed after bloods then feel free to add. Follow up with the proper bloods after about 6 weeks.
    I guess what I'm still not understanding is why would I reduce the AI if this seems to be the sequence of events:

    Take T shot, jitteryness spikes 12 - 24 hrs later
    Take 1mg AI, jitteryness subsides
    12 - 24 hrs post AI, jitteryness starts to return again

    Wouldn't that indicate that the 1mg AI is preventing the E2 spike, but then as the AI wears off the E2 is spiking again?

    Also, my weight is on the decline, and I don't have the ED or joint pain issues that people seem to report if in fact the E2 was going too low.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by miker295
    I guess what I'm still not understanding is why would I reduce the AI if this seems to be the sequence of events: Take T shot, jitteryness spikes 12 - 24 hrs later Take 1mg AI, jitteryness subsides 12 - 24 hrs post AI, jitteryness starts to return again Wouldn't that indicate that the 1mg AI is preventing the E2 spike, but then as the AI wears off the E2 is spiking again? Also, my weight is on the decline, and I don't have the ED or joint pain issues that people seem to report if in fact the E2 was going too low.
    Anastrozole has a half-life of 2 days therefore, 12-24 hours post AI you still have 75-88% of the AI in your system so I don't think the jitteriness is being caused by an E2 spike.

    I would recommend sticking to a protocol for at least 4 weeks and then getting bloodwork. Otherwise you are basically just shooting in the dark.

  16. #16
    Low Testosterone is offline ~ HRT Specialist ~
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    Most men will be symptomatic when free testosterone is below 15. Many are symptomatic when below 20 but below 15 is all but guaranteed in most men regardless of the total testosterone reading. I'm almost to the point where Total Testosterone readings have become meaningless to me.

  17. #17
    BallSak is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Testosterone View Post
    Most men will be symptomatic when free testosterone is below 15. Many are symptomatic when below 20 but below 15 is all but guaranteed in most men regardless of the total testosterone reading. I'm almost to the point where Total Testosterone readings have become meaningless to me.
    I've always thought the same. Glad to hear confirmation of this.

  18. #18
    Moparman's Avatar
    Moparman is offline Associate Member
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    Ur jittery because u crashed ur E2. 1 mg of ai is WAY TO MUCH.

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