Is prescription testosterone causing heart attacks,strokes & premature death? (Pic)

[kelkel]

^^ Get completely dialed in first. Then nail your nutrition and training before considering upping the ante. You'll be amazed at the progress you can make simply on TRT alone.

[APIs]

On the money API! Where you been? Would like to see you around here more.

Thanks Kel, been very busy with my business & life in that order. A good thing I guess. I do frequently stop by & read the threads though...

[EasyDoesIt]

How many failed surgeries have surgeons performed? How many bad scripts have doc's handed out?
They would be out of business if people were to work on themselves physically and mentally. Certainly would not want people getting fit and healthy right. i know a guy that was able to very recently drop his blood pressure meds from a workout program. After starting the meds he had rapid weight gain. That would certainly effect his heart, it was all around the midsection from blood pressure meds. I think it will work itself out. Doc's are attempting to prescribe test more often, they just need to be more educated about it. I have found when something impacts a profession, the people (doctors) will have to conform in place of fighting it.

[kelkel]

Thanks Kel, been very busy with my business & life in that order. A good thing I guess. I do frequently stop by & read the threads though...

Well, I've always appreciated your perspective and input. Show up more if you can.

[Ccdiesel]

Okay so what are we considering high rbc and hemocrit?

[suprarob]

Interesting article with a study included.

Dueling Docs: Are Testosterone Supplements Worth the Risk? | Next Avenue

[17chester6]

Apropos to this thread, CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, our version of PBS) radio did a segment on low T and and the association on heart attacks, early death. The researcher interviewed was I believe from the US and he spoke with a voice of reason. He stated that the association of starting TRT and early death was likely from the elevation of the haematocrit ("increased viscosity of the blood") and/or elevated E2 levels that can develop secondarily from the use of T. He did state that these changes could be checked for and corrected. Also the association of an adverse cardiac event and a preexisting cardiac history was noted.
Luckily I am healthy, I have a good understanding on medical issues, I had this forum that taught me so much, and I have a GP that is up to date on TRT so that I am being monitored appropriately. I have started to again donate blood to the Canadian Blood Services on a prophylactic basis though my haematocrit is still normal. From reading these threads many guys don't have such a situation and they are left to fend for themselves.
Because of this possible link of preexisting heart disease, starting TRT and having an adverse event (heart attack etc), it might be a good idea that the monitors on this forum display this information prominently. As I mentioned on a different thread, menopausal women with preexisting heart disease who start HRT do have a higher rate of strokes and MI. This effect decreases the longer they are on HRT, it is at the initiation of the hormones that these adverse events tend to occur. The same thing seems to be true, if the studies are correct, with men who have a cardiac history and who start TRT.

[Bonaparte]

Okay so what are we considering high rbc and hemocrit?

Keep your hematocrit between 40 and 50%.
The top of the range for hematocrit is 51-53%, depending on what lab you use.

[suprarob]

Keep your hematocrit between 40 and 50%.
The top of the range for hematocrit is 51-53%, depending on what lab you use.

Mine is 52%. Should I be alarmed?
And I rarely drink water. So I wonder if that skews the results. I have started drinking several glasses a day and feel better. Is that placebo or does it make a difference?

[64509chvl]

Mine is 52%. Should I be alarmed?
And I rarely drink water. So I wonder if that skews the results. I have started drinking several glasses a day and feel better. Is that placebo or does it make a difference?

Go donate bud! Get it in range at the very least.

[APIs]

Mine is 52%. Should I be alarmed?
And I rarely drink water. So I wonder if that skews the results. I have started drinking several glasses a day and feel better. Is that placebo or does it make a difference?

Most Docs arent really concerned until you reach the 55 level. You should be donating blood as others have stated anyway. As for your religion, I'd re-check that if I were you. The year is 2014. There are exceptions in various religions when medical necessity comes into play.

For example, Muslims that have an enzyme deficiency are allowed to ingest a certain drug that's derived from porcine (pigs) when their health is at risk...

[2Sox]

Mine is 52%. Should I be alarmed?
And I rarely drink water. So I wonder if that skews the results. I have started drinking several glasses a day and feel better. Is that placebo or does it make a difference?

It absolutely makes a difference! Think about why athletes are constantly hydrating. When you donate blood, hydrate before the procedure and hydrate after. In fact, over-hydrate. It will make a world of difference in how you feel. (The Red Cross always has sugary snacks and juice drinks for donors anyway.) My favorite drink when I go is Arizona Green Tea With Gensing and Honey. It gives me a little sugar and flavor, along with the H2O.

[slates]

Are there any studies which show that TRT reduces mortality?

If there are only studies showing an increase in mortality, then you have to assume the conclusions are likely true.

[Beethoven]

It's funny that there was a post on my Facebook from some attorney on this very same issue. If you click on his page he has a survey to which it asks what type of test product you have used, anywhere from gels to pills, etc. get ready boys trt will kill you! Let's just get off trt and smoke marijuana, that seems to be the IN wonder drug these days.

[Low Testosterone]

According to this study, men on testosterone therapy decrease their risk of cardiovascular issues, premature death, etc. And you'll notice unlike the recent "studies" (I use that word very loosely) this one is 5yrs in length and doesn't make random statements:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/813327

[kelkel]

Are there any studies which show that TRT reduces mortality?

If there are only studies showing an increase in mortality, then you have to assume the conclusions are likely true.

Are you always so pessimistic?

[Beethoven]

I believe as some have previously mentioned that that are things that you need to keep an eye on such as hematocrit. Not doing so can cause you problems but a protocol from an informed Dr and monitored well is probably better than running on low t IMO.

[Novanut]

According to this study, men on testosterone therapy decrease their risk of cardiovascular issues, premature death, etc. And you'll notice unlike the recent "studies" (I use that word very loosely) this one is 5yrs in length and doesn't make random statements:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/813327

You have an account to access the article.

[suprarob]

@Low Testosterone do you have log in info for the study you presented?

[Low Testosterone]

You have an account to access the article.

hmm, you shouldn't need an account to view it. Anyway, here's a copy past of the article:

A new observational study following men with hypogonadism taking testosterone for 5 years — the longest treatment duration to date — showed improvements in lipids, blood pressure, and blood glucose levels, thereby ameliorating a number of components of the metabolic syndrome.

"Men with hypogonadism, or testosterone deficiency, do get reasonable benefit from testosterone treatment, in a very subtle way," lead author Adulmaged M Traish, PhD, from Boston University School of Medicine, Massachusetts, told Medscape Medical News. "They lose a bit of weight, it reduces hyperglycemia and insulin resistance, and, although it was a surprise to me, testosterone certainly normalizes the lipid profile."

The long duration of this new trial strengthens the findings, said Dr. Traish. "If this were a 3-week or 6-week observational study, I would have my personal doubts, but once you pass the third or fourth year and it stays consistent, it's beginning to tell us that there is something obviously there."

Dr. Traish and colleagues report their findings in their study published online October 15 in the International Journal of Clinical Practice.

"This hormone is with us, it kicks in after adrenarche [puberty] and it is an important metabolic hormone; it regulates our sugar metabolism and our muscle metabolism among other things, and when we don't have enough of this hormone, we are going to go into imbalance, " he noted.

Dr. Traish stressed, however, that testosterone is a reasonable treatment only for men with proven deficiency, "not as an overall drug to make miracles." A recent study showed testosterone use in the United States has tripled over a 10-year period, from 2001 to 2011, and critics have blamed this on aggressive marketing by the companies that produce testosterone-replacement therapies.

"We are simply bringing testosterone back to within the physiological range in men who are deficient," he stressed. But what constitutes testosterone deficiency is a subject of some debate, he acknowledged.

Testosterone Improves Cholesterol Over 5 Years

In their study, Dr. Traish and colleagues followed 255 men, aged 33 to 69 years of age, who had been diagnosed with subnormal plasma total testosterone levels (mean 9.93 nmol/L; range, 5.89–12.13 nmol/L) as well as at least mild symptoms of testosterone deficiency assessed by the Aging Males' Symptom scale.

All the subjects had sought urological consultation for various medical conditions (eg, erectile dysfunction or decreased libido) or had been referred to a urologist by another specialist, such as some men with osteoporosis suspected of having testosterone deficiency.

All men received treatment with parenteral testosterone undecanoate 1000 mg ( Nebido, Bayer Pharma, Berlin, Germany) administered at baseline and 6 weeks and thereafter every 12 weeks up to 60 months.

Measurements of height, weight, and waist circumference were performed at baseline, and at each visit weight and waist circumference were assessed and blood samples drawn.

Testosterone levels improved from a mean of 9.9 nmol/L at the beginning of therapy to about 18 nmol/L within the first 12 months of therapy ( P < .0001), then they reached a plateau and remained constant, at physiological levels, throughout the course of treatment, approaching 5 years.

Testosterone therapy reduced waist circumference by an average of 8.5 cm over the course of the study, and body weight fell by a mean of 15.35 kg ( P < .0001 for both). These effects of testosterone on anthropometric parameters have been previously reported, say the researchers.

They also examined whether testosterone affects the components of the metabolic syndrome. Testosterone treatment resulted in a gradual and consistent decline in total-cholesterol levels, which was significant as early as 12 months of therapy and reached a plateau at 24 months. At baseline, the mean total cholesterol was 7.3 mmol/L (282 mg/dL), and this was reduced to about 4.9 mmol/L (188 mg/dL) by 24 months of therapy, remaining low throughout the remaining period of therapy.

Similarly, there were marked and significant gradual and consistent decreases in LDL-cholesterol levels, from 4.2 mmol/L (164 mg/dL) to 2.8 mmol/L (110 mg/dL), significant within the first year of treatment ( P < .0001) and at 24 months ( P < .0001 vs 12 months) and stable thereafter over the course of the 5-year period.

HDL-cholesterol levels slightly but significantly increased and remained elevated over the 5-year period of treatment. The total/HDL-cholesterol ratio, thought to predict the risk of cardiovascular disease and, in particular, ischemic heart disease, also improved considerably in these patients, from 5.44 to 3.49 ( P < .0001) "suggesting a favorable change in the lipid profile and a potential reduction in CVD risk," the authors observe.

Testosterone Improves BP, Blood Sugar, HbA 1c, and CRP

Testosterone treatment also produced a marked and sustained gradual decrease in systolic blood pressure from a mean of 153.55 mm Hg to 137.72 mm Hg ( P < .0001); the decrease was significant and gradual over the first 2 years and remained low over the entire course of the 5 years of treatment. A similar pattern was recorded with diastolic blood pressure, which dropped from 93.49 to 79.59 mm Hg ( P < .0001).

And there was a significant gradual decrease in fasting blood glucose from 5.74 mmol/L (103.35 mg/dL) to 5.41 mmol/L (97.56 mg/dL); again, the decrease was significant after 12 months ( P < .0001), further declined after 24 months ( P = .012 vs 12 months), and then reached a plateau.

This was paralleled by a marked decrease in HbA 1c from 7.06% to 6.16%, which, in contrast to other parameters, was statistically significant after 12 months ( P < .0001), between 24 and 12 months ( P < .0001), between 36 and 24 months ( P = .0036), between 48 and 36 months ( P = .0049), and between 60 and 48 months ( P = .0149).

The researchers also observed a marked and significant reduction in C-reactive protein (CRP), from 6.29 U/L to 1.03 U/L ( P < .0001), with a plateau after 36 months, which was accompanied by significant declines in aspartate transaminase and alanine transaminase, "suggesting a reduced inflammatory response and improvement in liver function," they note.

On a safety note, the incidence of prostate cancer, which was diagnosed in 3 men, provides reassurance with regard to the role of testosterone, say Dr. Traish and colleagues, who note that other recent reports have placed fears regarding testosterone therapy and prostate cancer incidence "in a more rational perspective."

Testosterone Deficiency: More Risk for CVD and Diabetes

Asked by Medscape about a recent review that found scant definitive evidence that testosterone supplementation affects the risk of cardiovascular disease, Dr. Traish said it suffered from all of the weaknesses inherent in any meta-analysis, with many of the included studies having considerable limitations.

And while he acknowledged that his new study is observational and "was not designed to specifically investigate the effects of testosterone on metabolic syndrome," nor did it select patients for specific comorbidities, it did at least represent patients "in a real-life setting with various symptoms, comorbidities, and conditions," he and his colleagues observe.

Dr. Traish said there are many issues to consider on this controversial topic.

"There are more men who are androgen deficient and are not treated, from this country and all around, for reasons that are beyond my understanding. In some countries it's because of the healthcare system. The argument is, 'Are we pushing this on men and asking them, should they check their T?' but if we are looking at quality of life, what's wrong with checking testosterone levels in the same way as we check cholesterol levels? If the testosterone is below the normal range, what's wrong with giving testosterone?

"Men who are deficient in testosterone have more risk for vascular disease, more risk for diabetes, and more risk of hypertension," he stressed.

Testosterone Deficiency Should Be More Than a Lab Test

He acknowledged, however, that there is disagreement on what constitutes hypogonadism. "We are complex organisms; my threshold may be 350 ng/dL [of testosterone], but someone else's threshold may be 450, so that person, once he goes below 450 he is deficient, but if we take my threshold as the universal one, he's cool."

Official guidelines from the US Endocrine Society guidelines indicate testosterone deficiency is anything below the range of 300 to 340 ng/dL, he said, "so if you are lower, you are hypogonadal. In Europe, the range is 8 to 11 nmol/L"

And he emphasized that the key to proper diagnosis of hypogonadism is "to use the range of testosterone [that indicates deficiency] plus a number of signs and symptoms. It should not just be a lab test. It should be a lab test plus symptoms such as fatigue, sexual dysfunction, and other indicators."

And finally, "Which testosterone? That I don't know — the injectable, the gel, the tablet, the inhaler…the spray. That becomes a preference of the patient and his physician to discuss which one is best for him," he concluded.

Dr. Traish has reported no relevant financial relationships; disclosures for the coauthors are listed in the article.

Int J Clin Pract . Published online October 15, 2013. Article

[Oldhighlander]

Heard on the news this morning they are calling for a black label on testosterone . Why all the attacks lately? Seems to me if you are on a proper protocol and monitor yourself you should be golden. My guess is most are not doing this because of ignorance and bad docs. I know a few guys in my sport how are on trt and still do 200 mg every 2 weeks at a docs office and follow blindly. Crazy in my opinion. Proactive is my key to all of my health issues. Seems to me that it's common sense. But then again common sense isn't so common sometimes.

["Maximus"]

Mine is 52%. Should I be alarmed?
And I rarely drink water. So I wonder if that skews the results. I have started drinking several glasses a day and feel better. Is that placebo or does it make a difference?

It plays a role in blood concentration levels without a doubt; in fact, lack of not drinking enough water is not only bind to the discussion at hand but also plays a role in all sorts of blood related issues/illnesses, such as high blood pressure, etc.. so try to drink water consistently throughout the day at suggested quantities.

About the blood donation due to Religious beliefs, just do a full blood workup twice a year.. When I do, they draw like 7 tubes or more full of blood.. enough to keep things balanced (in a way, my opinion); but I may be wrong.

[Bonaparte]

It plays a role in blood concentration levels without a doubt; in fact, lack of not drinking enough water is not only bind to the discussion at hand but also plays a role in all sorts of blood related issues/illnesses, such as high blood pressure, etc.. so try to drink water consistently throughout the day at suggested quantities.

About the blood donation due to Religious beliefs, just do a full blood workup twice a year.. When I do, they draw like 7 tubes or more full of blood.. enough to keep things balanced (in a way, my opinion); but I may be wrong.

Not at all. Those tubes are only like 3 ml each. A standard donation is 473 ml (1 pint).

[JD250]

I know a guy that bought brand new boots and later that week he died of a heart attack...... that's why I never wear brand new boots..... in fact they should be made illegal!

[dreadnok89]

Simple for most @BallSak. But if your religion forbids blood donations or transfusion not so simple.

Ask your God then

[2Sox]

Simple for most @BallSak. But if your religion forbids blood donations or transfusion not so simple.

I'm sure this has been debated for a very long time, but in my view, if something like this puts a person's health at risk - it's time to start questioning their religion. Or maybe it's the way to cull out bad genetics and weaklings. Just let them die. Very scary stuff. I never heard of a God that would want that to happen.

Humans were blessed with an innate, ethical self and an evolving intellect. Maybe it's time for some people with certain beliefs to get in touch with these and use their power of choice.

[dreadnok89]

I'm sure this has been debated for a very long time, but in my view, if something like this puts a person's health at risk - it's time to start questioning their religion. Or maybe it's the way to cull out bad genetics and weaklings. Just let them die. Very scary stuff. I never heard of a God that would want that to happen.

Humans were blessed with an innate, ethical self and an evolving intellect. Maybe it's time for some people with certain beliefs to get in touch with these and use their power of choice.

dont even bother this whole thread seems trollish

[sfgiantsfan55]

sorry if this is a stupid question but here goes anyway

i know older folks use baby aspirin daily (81mg) to thin their blood ... anyone do this?

["Maximus"]

dont even bother this whole thread seems trollish

Look who's talking! if you have nothing worthy to add to the discussion, do what many intelligent/smart folks do around here: keep the heck out of the thread or don't type anything. Simple as that!

["Maximus"]

Not at all. Those tubes are only like 3 ml each. A standard donation is 473 ml (1 pint).

You're right. However, the tubes they use at the clinic I go are what seems to be at least 3x the size of 3ml for sure and they use 7 or up to 9 tubes for some reason.

["Maximus"]

I know a guy that bought brand new boots and later that week he died of a heart attack...... that's why I never wear brand new boots..... in fact they should be made illegal!

Lmao!!!

[Oldhighlander]

Older folks? Really? I take offense. Yes I use baby aspirin and have for years. Weather it makes a difference or I not I don't know. Only way to find out is blood test. Aspirin. Repeat blood test. Evaluate. What were we talking about again?

[dreadnok89]

Look who's talking! if you have nothing worthy to add to the discussion, do what many intelligent/smart folks do around here: keep the heck out of the thread or don't type anything. Simple as that!

Huh? And on a side note I donate blood 2 times a year and it keeps my crit normal

[sfgiantsfan55]

Older folks? Really? I take offense. Yes I use baby aspirin and have for years. Weather it makes a difference or I not I don't know. Only way to find out is blood test. Aspirin. Repeat blood test. Evaluate. What were we talking about again?

haha...sorry didnt mean to offend l.. hell im old as heck too, so my kid reminds me...

[dreadnok89]

Older folks? Really? I take offense. Yes I use baby aspirin and have for years. Weather it makes a difference or I not I don't know. Only way to find out is blood test. Aspirin. Repeat blood test. Evaluate. What were we talking about again?

Most of my older friends had problems with their prostate so the had to stop HRT

[Beethoven]

sorry if this is a stupid question but here goes anyway

i know older folks use baby aspirin daily (81mg) to thin their blood ... anyone do this?

Yes, I do a low dose/baby aspirin daily. I have hematocrit problems from time to time and it helps, along with staying well hydrated.

I heard about the thing with new boots so I buy mine at the Goodwill store. Lol

[Oldhighlander]

SF just yankin your chain. Has anyone had high hematocrit and then used aspirin then had BW and found it helped? Curious to know.

[17chester6]

SF just yankin your chain. Has anyone had high hematocrit and then used aspirin then had BW and found it helped? Curious to know.

ASA affects the ability of platelets to clump and thus it reduces the blood's ability to clot. That can be useful if one has a tendency to form clots in the legs (DVT), brain (strokes) and heart ("heart attack"). ASA will not "thin" or dilute the blood, it will NOT change your haematocrit.

An elevated haematocrit essentially means there is an excess of Red Blood Cells (RBCs) in relation to plasma (the water component). Thus the blood is more viscous or sluggish and so there is a tendency for clots to form (MI, DVT, strokes). ASA helps to prevent the clotting (as do other prescription medications) but it does not change the hamatocrit.

To reduce your haematocrit you need to reduce the number of RBC or increase the plasma component. The only way to increase the plasma component is to avoid dehydration: hence the suggestion to stay well hydrated. More to the point is to reduce the RBC component and in my case I do this by donating blood every eight weeks to the Canadian Blood Services. It's win/win as it helps others and it keeps my levels at an acceptable range.

So ASA can be helpful for an elevated hamatocrit, but do yourself a favour and donated to your local blood bank. It's a better method of keeping the haematocrit at an acceptable level and it can save the life of someone in a car accident, with cancer or having surgery.

As an aside, if you are taking ASA you might be declined as a donor depending on local rules.

[Oldhighlander]

Thanks for the info. My level is good. I was just curious.

[suprarob]

dont even bother this whole thread seems trollish

You got me. The pics I posted up of myself,the business's I said I own and me saying I've been married for 33 years is a hoax. I really have nothing better to do with my time so I thought I would troll a steroid forum.