Is prescription testosterone causing heart attacks,strokes & premature death? (Pic)

[Bonaparte]

You're right. However, the tubes they use at the clinic I go are what seems to be at least 3x the size of 3ml for sure and they use 7 or up to 9 tubes for some reason.

Ok, so you're looking at maybe 60 or 70 ml tops. That's still not going to make much difference unless you're doing this weekly.

[dreadnok89]

You got me. The pics I posted up of myself,the business's I said I own and me saying I've been married for 33 years is a hoax. I really have nothing better to do with my time so I thought I would troll a steroid forum.

Sorry man, I saw hairdresser and thought this can't be real

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

I saw a Dr. at the Veterans Admin and his thoughts were close to this discussion except : He said TRT for elderly men (speaking of me at 54 ) was not about feeling good but being in the normal range and no 54 year old man should be higher than 400 max ? If TRT therapy required anything more than Testosterone gel it was unhealthy for an "elderly " man ? ( 54 )

He stated that if an AI was needed or RBC got to high then the testosterone level being supplemented was to high and not to give blood due to high RBC to lower dose of Testosterone ?

[2Sox]

Post removed and transferred to another thread.

[kelkel]

I saw a Dr. at the Veterans Admin and his thoughts were close to this discussion except : He said TRT for elderly men (speaking of me at 54 ) was not about feeling good but being in the normal range and no 54 year old man should be higher than 400 max ? If TRT therapy required anything more than Testosterone gel it was unhealthy for an "elderly " man ? ( 54 )

^^ Ridiculous

He stated that if an AI was needed or RBC got to high then the testosterone level being supplemented was to high and not to give blood due to high RBC to lower dose of Testosterone ?

Mostly wrong again. We all metabolize testosterone differently. Some will simply need an AI and to donate regularly. Others could very much benefit from lowering their dose a bit to better manage RBC's, E2, etc. Most people if properly dialed in should not have to donate blood.

[Low Testosterone]

Here are some interesting stats:

Approximately 5% of men on TRT will need to give blood as in it should be an absolute must.
Approximately 10% should give blood.
Approximately 70% will need an AI regardless of gel or injectable
Approximately 50% of the 70% that need an AI will find they need less and less to none at all if they stay on TRT and do not gain body fat.
Approximately 60% of all men who start TRT stop in 6 months. There are numerous reasons, I'd say less than 1% have anything to do with health reasons and the majority of the reasons are somewhere in the vicinity of ridiculous. The most common reason to stop by far..."I feel great, I don't need this anymore." Of course, there are also plenty of those that give it 6-8wks and then stop because they expected a miracle in 6-8wks.

Lastly, I didn't realize 54 years old was considered elderly. I'm sorry to hear that, lol!

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

Here are some interesting stats:

Approximately 5% of men on TRT will need to give blood as in it should be an absolute must.
Approximately 10% should give blood.
Approximately 70% will need an AI regardless of gel or injectable
Approximately 50% of the 70% that need an AI will find they need less and less to none at all if they stay on TRT and do not gain body fat.
Approximately 60% of all men who start TRT stop in 6 months. There are numerous reasons, I'd say less than 1% have anything to do with health reasons and the majority of the reasons are somewhere in the vicinity of ridiculous. The most common reason to stop by far..."I feel great, I don't need this anymore." Of course, there are also plenty of those that give it 6-8wks and then stop because they expected a miracle in 6-8wks.

Lastly, I didn't realize 54 years old was considered elderly. I'm sorry to hear that, lol!

Yea I was also ! lol ! For a real jaw dropper read my post in this section of the forum and I share some of his other statements and the thread is titled something like tried to save $$$ with VA . Dr comments laughable !

It will really make you sad that there are men that think because they have the title endo's they are God's he was shocked when I told him I thought he was a nut and needed to go back to school ! Another comment he made was 54 year old elderly men should not have muscles it was normal to have "Lower Test levels and 400 was the absolute highest an elderly man of 54 should ever be and never should elderly men take injections ?

So I am going to let him try to treat me just to get free Andro gel and he said any man that needed an AI was supplementing with to much Testosterone and no one on TRT needed an Ai and the only reason for HCG was if I wamted to be more fertile and have children ? WTF this was a real so called Endo and he had no answer as to what I should do if my nuts hurt and started hurting and the HCG made me feel better and nut stop hurting ? He said the HCG was giving me a Testosterone rush and that was why I felt better ? He was going to save my life and get me off the injectables and get my Test levels where they needed to be around 350 to 400 and no AI and no HCG only Gel ? I tried to explain that I had tried the gel for 6 mths. and it never even caused my Test level to rise and he said that he would prescribe a liberal amount of gel . . . . lol 4 pumps a day ?

[kelkel]

Here are some interesting stats:

Approximately 5% of men on TRT will need to give blood as in it should be an absolute must.
Approximately 10% should give blood.
Approximately 70% will need an AI regardless of gel or injectable
Approximately 50% of the 70% that need an AI will find they need less and less to none at all if they stay on TRT and do not gain body fat.
Approximately 60% of all men who start TRT stop in 6 months. There are numerous reasons, I'd say less than 1% have anything to do with health reasons and the majority of the reasons are somewhere in the vicinity of ridiculous. The most common reason to stop by far..."I feel great, I don't need this anymore." Of course, there are also plenty of those that give it 6-8wks and then stop because they expected a miracle in 6-8wks.

Lastly, I didn't realize 54 years old was considered elderly. I'm sorry to hear that, lol!

Great stats.

[17chester6]

Just as an additional note, there is an interesting article on the BrinkZone

Effects of 6-year Long-Term Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) in Patients with ‘‘Diabesity’’

about a six year study on the effects of testosterone . As I have only skimmed the article and did not look up the individual studies that were cited I can't say that the results are truly valid, but the results look really interesting. The progressive weight (fat) loss and the progressive decrease in abdominal girth (and thus of visceral fat which is a hallmark of cardiovascular disease) is most impressive. That the abdominal girth was continuing to decrease even after six years is most interesting. If the main study cited is indeed valid you would think there will be a push to study the use of T replacement in preventive medicine circles.

In addition it seems that the test subjects were not followed for E levels, given HCG or an AI as needed etc the way we on the forum are. Despite this they still had a favourable outcome vis a vis their weights and abdominal girth. I would think that these effects would be even better had they been followed with the blood testing that we think is essential.

[APIs]

Here are some interesting stats:

Approximately 5% of men on TRT will need to give blood as in it should be an absolute must.
Approximately 10% should give blood.
Approximately 70% will need an AI regardless of gel or injectable
Approximately 50% of the 70% that need an AI will find they need less and less to none at all if they stay on TRT and do not gain body fat.
Approximately 60% of all men who start TRT stop in 6 months. There are numerous reasons, I'd say less than 1% have anything to do with health reasons and the majority of the reasons are somewhere in the vicinity of ridiculous. The most common reason to stop by far..."I feel great, I don't need this anymore." Of course, there are also plenty of those that give it 6-8wks and then stop because they expected a miracle in 6-8wks.

Lastly, I didn't realize 54 years old was considered elderly. I'm sorry to hear that, lol!

I would imagine those 60% of males who quit must be really clueless & failed to educate themselves on the necessity of TRT once you take that leap. How stupid people are...

Just a side note, my Doc encourages all his patients to donate blood regularly especially his "larger" patients. Besides any obvious blood values that warrant the donation, he feels it's just good for our health and those who may have borderline hypertension issues.

My own blood pressure can be go up once in awhile and I've noticed it's less of an issue since I started donating 4x year. Plus, as an added bonus, it does make me feel good that I'm giving back in a small way...

[Low Testosterone]

I would imagine those 60% of males who quit must be really clueless & failed to educate themselves on the necessity of TRT once you take that leap. How stupid people are...

Just a side note, my Doc encourages all his patients to donate blood regularly especially his "larger" patients. Besides any obvious blood values that warrant the donation, he feels it's just good for our health and those who may have borderline hypertension issues.

My own blood pressure can be go up once in awhile and I've noticed it's less of an issue since I started donating 4x year. Plus, as an added bonus, it does make me feel good that I'm giving back in a small way...

I mentioned this in another thread, but the big reason people stop TRT is they have unrealistic expectations. They're taking testosterone , they've heard about testosterone in the news and associate it with magic and when magic doesn't happen they get pissed off and leave their treatment. Most are expecting to have unbelievable physiques like that of a bodybuilder and the sexual performance of a porn star. You can tell them all you want that this WILL NOT happen but that's what's stuck in their head, and once again, when it doesn't happen they're pissed.

[APIs]

I mentioned this in another thread, but the big reason people stop TRT is they have unrealistic expectations. They're taking testosterone, they've heard about testosterone in the news and associate it with magic and when magic doesn't happen they get pissed off and leave their treatment. Most are expecting to have unbelievable physiques like that of a bodybuilder and the sexual performance of a porn star. You can tell them all you want that this WILL NOT happen but that's what's stuck in their head, and once again, when it doesn't happen they're pissed.

I was thinking if I lost 60% of my client base every 6 months I'd be standing on my corner with a tin-cup. Does your industry make an attempt to really educate clientele as part of administering TRT? It would seem this percentage might drop if men really appreciated the fundamentals of why they must continue treatment once started and/or the consequences of ceasing TRT. Or regardless of education, do you find that the majority just cannot deliver on the level of personal responsibility required?

I guess you could say that many on this forum represent what are good patients in that we understand the fundamentals and are compliant with what the Doctor(s) and the treatment protocol requires of us. Having said this, I guess it's easy to understand why a majority of men would fail @ TRT...

[EasyDoesIt]

I mentioned this in another thread, but the big reason people stop TRT is they have unrealistic expectations. They're taking testosterone, they've heard about testosterone in the news and associate it with magic and when magic doesn't happen they get pissed off and leave their treatment. Most are expecting to have unbelievable physiques like that of a bodybuilder and the sexual performance of a porn star. You can tell them all you want that this WILL NOT happen but that's what's stuck in their head, and once again, when it doesn't happen they're pissed.

Yes, it's that give me a pill that takes care of everything attitude. Also, people think if they take the product and sit on their butt it will compensate for their addictions or bad habits.

[Low Testosterone]

I was thinking if I lost 60% of my client base every 6 months I'd be standing on my corner with a tin-cup. Does your industry make an attempt to really educate clientele as part of administering TRT? It would seem this percentage might drop if men really appreciated the fundamentals of why they must continue treatment once started and/or the consequences of ceasing TRT. Or regardless of education, do you find that the majority just cannot deliver on the level of personal responsibility required?

I guess you could say that many on this forum represent what are good patients in that we understand the fundamentals and are compliant with what the Doctor(s) and the treatment protocol requires of us. Having said this, I guess it's easy to understand why a majority of men would fail @ TRT...

Try? Of course, but there's only so much you can do. A lot of men already have a set idea in their head of what's supposed to happen, which doesn't help, but IMO one of the biggest problems is the fact that TRT is considered medical and testosterone a drug. When the every day person thinks of a drug, when they take it they expect immediate action, noticeable action of some sort. That's not going to happen with testosterone, even if you injected 1000mg your first day. This is a very hard concept for a lot of guys to get their head around...take an antidepressant, feel better now, take Oxy, feel better now, take this or that, same result....but not testosterone. For years I've said it would do a world of good if we could separate drugs from hormones and view them as different things but we're a long way away from that, at least in the U.S.

As far as the consequences of stopping TRT, the biggest is you go back to having low testosterone , which in of itself is extremely unhealthy long term regardless of the standard symptoms we're all familiar with. But since a lot of men do not give TRT the adequate time it needs, they never experience full symptomatic relief and do not consider the long term health effects.

From a business standpoint, the good news is that many that stop do so because they feel better and think they don't need it...so once they start feeling bad again they come back. Again, I'm speaking strictly from a business standpoint in that regard, obviously that's not the right approach in terms of your health. So you do get a lot of repeat customers and a constant flow of new people. The good news is, if a man does start, stop and then come back, often they drop out less the second time around.

[kelkel]

Most are expecting to have unbelievable physiques like that of a bodybuilder and the sexual performance of a porn star. .

Damn right LT!

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

I mentioned this in another thread, but the big reason people stop TRT is they have unrealistic expectations. They're taking testosterone , they've heard about testosterone in the news and associate it with magic and when magic doesn't happen they get pissed off and leave their treatment. Most are expecting to have unbelievable physiques like that of a bodybuilder and the sexual performance of a porn star. You can tell them all you want that this WILL NOT happen but that's what's stuck in their head, and once again, when it doesn't happen they're pissed. Why would they get pissed ? if they are doing things properly they will see these results ? IMHO

I thought that is what TRT is for ? Worked that way for me ? I am a sex machine (humbly) and for only being back in the gym 14 mths and doing more of what I have learned on this site than from my Dr. I find a life long commitment easy ? Not to mention the healthy life style that just rubs off if you care just a little Just wish I could afford the Pros at lowtestosterone.com and I would be able to relax and do what the Dr. says as opposed to having to double check all BW and then refrence threads to keep levels balanced on my own ! I hear lowtestosterone.com will have a man balanced in about 6 mths max ? It has taken me 14 mths to be close . . . . . SAD4ME

I have lost close to 50 lbs of fat in 14 mths and I give blood and actually have a general understanding of what TRT is supposed to do from this forum

I have never had so many women in all my life and one night with them and they are harder to get rid of than a stray cat you give a bowl of milk ! ! !

TRT IMHO gives you what you are willing to give to it. Education and your own health and well being is to us as indivduals our responsibility ! So if you do everything a bad Dr. tells you in the name of TRT you will see bad results and that is your own fault for being lazy and not educating yourself in the 1st place ! I have found to many Dr.'s lacking good TRT knowledge claiming to be prescribing TRT ? Soooo read up wisdom is power ! As the man Kel always says MORE IS NOT BETTER !

[suprarob]

I have cut my dose in half and most all problems and symptoms have diminished. I feel way too many think "more is better". I have learned over the last 2 1/2 years that less is just as good if not better.

[2Sox]

I have cut my dose in half and most all problems and symptoms have diminished. I feel way too many think "more is better". I have learned over the last 2 1/2 years that less is just as good if not better.

I'd be curious to know what your dose is now. Also, is hCG and an AI part of your protocol?

[Chicagotarsier]

Half agree. If not for this site I would have most likely quit within 6 months...it would have taken my endo that long to get me any kind of dose to get any kind of results. I had to Triple his original dose (on my own) to just get up to 550 on the test chart. Then I had to fight him to do injections then another round to get to do them at home. It is as much the clueless Drs working the system to make as much cash off you as it is the ignorance of the people. No excuse for ignorant patients but profiteering doctors? There is no wonder lawsuits are so common these days.

I mentioned this in another thread, but the big reason people stop TRT is they have unrealistic expectations. They're taking testosterone, they've heard about testosterone in the news and associate it with magic and when magic doesn't happen they get pissed off and leave their treatment. Most are expecting to have unbelievable physiques like that of a bodybuilder and the sexual performance of a porn star. You can tell them all you want that this WILL NOT happen but that's what's stuck in their head, and once again, when it doesn't happen they're pissed.

[Chicagotarsier]

You prove my overall thought on TrT. You have to DO it and EXPERIENCE it and change your dose to see what makes you feel good. It is not about high or low but testing to find what is right for you. As my other post points out the scale for "normal" range is complete and utter garbage put out there by a government group with no scientific or statistical reasoning behind it. I am primary testicular failure and have the lowest testosterone possible without removing my balls which could only lover my normal level at peak by 68 points. I currently find 175 a week test prop makes me feel REALLY good. I will go up to 200 after a month (and labs) on 175 to see how I feel there. It might be the fountain of youth all over again..it might be the step beyond what makes me feel good. You do not know and wont know until you try.

The only person to blame for sitting at the same dose for 2.5 years and it not being your ideal dose is you. It is your life. Live it.

Finally anyone going on TrT should expect fat loss and LBM gain. ANY medicines..including TrT meds..need evaluated as you go along. If you are diabetic and go from 40% bf to 15% bf there is a good chance your diabetic analysis will change.

I have cut my dose in half and most all problems and symptoms have diminished. I feel way too many think "more is better". I have learned over the last 2 1/2 years that less is just as good if not better.

[Chicagotarsier]

This is the area I am watching real carefully on my TrT. From all feedback I get unless your TTest goes above 1000 there is almost 0 need for an AI to make your range normal. Now back to the normal ranges being BS...that is why this area interests me very much and will see as I go along...got my eyes on that.

I'd be curious to know what your dose is now. Also, is hCG and an AI part of your protocol?

[2Sox]

Now back to the normal ranges being BS...

What does this statement mean?

[Chicagotarsier]

SO riddle me this Batman.

A doctor is only allowed to prescribe you 2 months worth of medication if it is a schedule 1-2 or 3 drug. How would any responsible doctor prescribing a medication with known blood thickening qualities not have you on CBC tests every 6 months max and 3 months if insurance covers it?

None.

If you go out and buy your meds elsewhere it is all on you to be responsible and knowledgeable.

As far as telling people with 300 levels to not touch it. You realize being low testosterone increases their risk of stroke and heart attack by a factor of 6-10x? Glad you are not a doctor.

I said yes, here is why

The protocols I see people posting on here for their TRT are insane, I don't think it's TRT so much as stupid doctors.

If your RBC and hemocrit are running high your probably running more test than your body is meant to handle. Doctors saying "I want you at around 1000" is some scary shit. If your Low T symptoms go away with free T at 18 and serum at 500, then why the hell would you run more??

The problem is, some of us depend on TRT to "be normal" and others appear to use TRT as "anti-aging treatment" and they run shit to the limits.. well golly gee I wonder why people are having problems.

TRT is not new, it's been around a REALLY long time, it's becoming a hot topic now in the news because they are pushing it like candy on the street corner.

I work with some guys that are looking into TRT, they are running around 300 serum levels, I asked them, are you experiencing XYZ symptoms, they say no, and I'm like, don't touch it then.

I just hope this street corner peddling of this new " miracle drug" doesn't screw shit up for those of us that need it.

[2Sox]

This is the area I am watching real carefully on my TrT. From all feedback I get unless your TTest goes above 1000 there is almost 0 need for an AI to make your range normal. Now back to the normal ranges being BS...that is why this area interests me very much and will see as I go along...got my eyes on that.

One of the important things I learned on my TRT journey and on this forum, is that you can never make a generalization about ANYTHING in TRT. There are just too many factors to consider for each individual.

[Chicagotarsier]

There are hypogonadal individuals that take 200+ mg a week testosterone and result in <900 Ttotal test reading. EVERYONE is different. How would you be outside the bounds of Trt to be in normal range (normal is just what they call it). My Androil dose of 6 pills a day (equiv of 170 or so testosterone a week) put me at mid to low 500. Felt better but wow 175 test prop was like turning the light on in the room.

So lets get all "medical" for a moment.

If you take over 80 a week testosterone you are going to be shut down in a few months. 200 and you are shut down in a few weeks. In all reality you are living on artificial testosterone period if you are on TrT. There are a billion factors on how your body will process testosterone. A 175 dose for me might put me at 800. A 175 dose for you might put you at 1250. There are recorded natural testosterone levels in the 95th percentile of over 1200 and some up to 1600. It is a case by case basis. It is completely dependent on the person. If this was the same for all it would be like Lipitor....it is not. X does not work for everyone.

This is what I was trying to get at, if your TRT target is to be normal, there should only be benefits. If your pushing it higher because, well 200/wk just makes me feel that much better even though 100/wk causes me to be symptom free so I'll just run 200/wk, imo your now outside the bounds of "TRT" and your getting into low dose long running cycles, which is widely known to have undesirable side effects.

My body is built to operate with certain levels of androgens, if I'm keeping within those ranges why would it be stressful on my body?

It's just like anything else, you abuse tylenol and it will mess you up.

[Chicagotarsier]

The ranges for Normal Test were not scientifically derived. The test group to derive "normal" had old, young, diabetics, cancer patients...etc. The CDC then submitted it and it was approved no question asked and then they pushed it onto labs to standardize on it.

This in turn resulted in no statistical analysis. If you are 18 and at 400...you are normal...if you are 80 and 400...you are normal.... No understanding of 5th and 95th percentile statistical analysis. No understanding of what the top end of the range is. No understanding of where negative impact low begins..just a random range based on a group of less than 100 people.

Here is a good example of how it SHOULD have been done.


Normal Testosterone Levels in Men by Age - Free and Total Healthy Male Ranges

Why?

Diabetic meds alone are 30B profit in the USA. Lipitor alone is a 20B market. If you could take a shot that in 2 years with proper diet could cure most Type 2 diabetes, high cholesterol. etc.... there is no wonder WHY.

What does this statement mean?

[kelkel]

From all feedback I get unless your TTest goes above 1000 there is almost 0 need for an AI to make your range normal.

Where's that info coming from Chicago? Very broad statement.

[2Sox]

Where's that info coming from Chicago? Very broad statement.

I agree. That's exactly what I was referring to in my previous post above.

[suprarob]

I'd be curious to know what your dose is now. Also, is hCG and an AI part of your protocol?

3 ml a week or 1 ml M-W-F sub-q
3 ml Hcg divided Thurs and Sat
AI I use a daily compounded creme Progest/Anastrazole on top my feet
Creatine daily pill
Vit E pill
Workout daily running 14 flights stairs followed by 1/2 workout with weights,1 body part a day

[Ryanmcd]

Where's that info coming from Chicago? Very broad statement.

He's talking out his ass and playing doctor. So out of the 1000's of patients you see DocChicago this is what you found, or just your guess with maybe a bloodwork or two under your belt?

[suprarob]

He's talking out his ass and playing doctor. So out of the 1000's of patients you see DocChicago this is what you found, or just your guess with maybe a bloodwork or two under your belt?

I wouldn't mind the girl that Kelkel has in his avatar pic talking out her bum…

[suprarob]

@Bonaparte how old are you man?

[Chicagotarsier]

2 % of test is converted to estrogen by aromization. That is the basic math behind estrogen. Everyone is different and it might up to 3% for some one or down to 1% but for all basic calcs you use 2%. That is just a fact that is used by every doc in every clinic. Sorry if that is speaking out of my ass and offended you.

It is a broad statement but would tend to follow the rules set in place by nature for the human body. There are many things that can impact estrogen level including weight and bf% and a hundred other items.

I am not a doctor. I do not pretend to be one nor do I sit behind a website trying to be a doctor. Since I was diagnosed with low test I have studied my arse off and learned facts and tried to leave bro science out of it all. What percent of people fall at 1000 total testosterone naturally? What percent of people fall into 1000 TT on TrT? I can speak for those with natural TT over 1000.

There is only one age group (4 year age blocks total of 20 blocks) that has a 95th percentile that reaches 1000. So you are looking at just that age group having less than 7 of every 100 people with over 1000 TT. Of them 0 were on estrogen control.

If TrT is done right you will see the same ratio of people with correct TrT dosages at the 1000 level. If they are healthy the same rules apply. Now when you start seeing people who get estrogen issues with a 1000 TT level on TrT know what I say? If there are less than 1 in a 1000 people on the face of the earth with TT of 1000 why are there so darn many people walking around on TrT with 1000? Self medication.

A doctor prescribing medicine for 95th percentile levels better have a darn good case for it and a lot of paperwork covering his butt. The moment something bad happens his treatment is suspect and he is suspended medical license. A patient prescribing his own levels that fall in the 95th percentile and a doctor seeing that in the bloodwork will automatically go to reduce dosage unless..as said above...he has an extensive paperwork trail CYA.

In conclusion, if I was a doctor I would see 0 patients that I prescribed 95th percentile medicine to. 1000TT via TrT is going to be self medication outside a doctors prescribed regime. If I did meet one of these 1000TT individuals naturally that now need TrT odds would favor not needing estrogen control. This is statistical analysis. Some anti-aging clinic provide some odds and it would be great information to know.

But again who knows..one of the more respected guys on the subject from Harvard barely mentions in passing about gyno...because if TrT is done correctly it is not a real issue. Hemocrit and such...yes....

http://www.harvardprostateknowledge....cement-therapy

He's talking out his ass and playing doctor. So out of the 1000's of patients you see DocChicago this is what you found, or just your guess with maybe a bloodwork or two under your belt?

[trikydik]

I said yes, here is why

The protocols I see people posting on here for their TRT are insane, I don't think it's TRT so much as stupid doctors.

If your RBC and hemocrit are running high your probably running more test than your body is meant to handle. Doctors saying "I want you at around 1000" is some scary shit. If your Low T symptoms go away with free T at 18 and serum at 500, then why the hell would you run more?? The problem is, some of us depend on TRT to "be normal" and others appear to use TRT as "anti-aging treatment" and they run shit to the limits.. well golly gee I wonder why people are having problems.

My last 2 dr.s are nothign like this... Both want to see my serum levels at around 550 to 700...last blood work, I was 880 and dr. lowered weekly injections some. I have never met a Dr. who thought 1000 was a good level...

[suprarob]

I find dr's are recommending lower levels at 350-500. If we go above they make some take time off. That has been my experience.

[Metalject]

I find dr's are recommending lower levels at 350-500. If we go above they make some take time off. That has been my experience.

Doctors that are upset about a reading above 500 and are upset about it only because of that number - find another doctor. There is nothing special about a testosterone number; in fact, it doesn't tell us much at all.

[2Sox]

Doctors that are upset about a reading above 500 and are upset about it only because of that number - find another doctor. There is nothing special about a testosterone number; in fact, it doesn't tell us much at all.

I completely agree. Total T is essentially a lab guide and not useful at all. It's common knowledge for those who even have basic understanding of TRT that the Free T reading and how you feel is what you should go on. I'm one of the "senior" members here and I only feel really good when my Free T is over the end of the range - which would bring my TT into the 1100+ range. And I'm only on 105mg T Cyp/week and 700iu hCG /week. In no way do I see this as an extreme protocol.

[Ryanmcd]

I completely agree. Total T is essentially a lab guide and not useful at all. It's common knowledge for those who even have basic understanding of TRT that the Free T reading and how you feel is what you should go on. I'm one of the "senior" members here and I only feel really good when my Free T is over the end of the range - which would bring my TT into the 1100+ range. And I'm only on 105mg T Cyp/week and 700iu hCG/week. In no way do I see this as an extreme protocol.

If you have a good doc you can play with the range, I went from 80 - 150 just to see how I felt.

[lovbyts]

Are there any studies which show that TRT reduces mortality?

If there are only studies showing an increase in mortality, then you have to assume the conclusions are likely true.

Yeah just ask most anyone who is on TRT now because there were the walking dead in most cases.

What's your agenda? Ever hear of quality over quantity? If I was told if I went on TRT I would only live another 10 years but if I did not go on TRT I would live 12 years guess which one I would choose. On trt and living 10 every time as I think most would agree, but luckily that is not the case and I expect to live a lot longer and healthier being on TRT than not.

This is the area I am watching real carefully on my TrT. From all feedback I get unless your TTest goes above 1000 there is almost 0 need for an AI to make your range normal. Now back to the normal ranges being BS...that is why this area interests me very much and will see as I go along...got my eyes on that.

Well damn I must be special then because I have 2 different sets of blood work that shows my total testosterone just above 700, free 34.5 and my Estradial is 295. I guess I'm special, or maybe you are just wrong?

SO riddle me this Batman.

A doctor is only allowed to prescribe you 2 months worth of medication if it is a schedule 1-2 or 3 drug. How would any responsible doctor prescribing a medication with known blood thickening qualities not have you on CBC tests every 6 months max and 3 months if insurance covers it?

None.

If you go out and buy your meds elsewhere it is all on you to be responsible and knowledgeable.

As far as telling people with 300 levels to not touch it. You realize being low testosterone increases their risk of stroke and heart attack by a factor of 6-10x? Glad you are not a doctor.

Again, where do you get your information. I have a couple different schedule 2 meds that I have been getting a 3 month prescription at a time for the last 3+ years.

If your going to try to argue this logically at least get your facts right.

[Bonaparte]

2 % of test is converted to estrogen by aromization. That is the basic math behind estrogen. Everyone is different and it might up to 3% for some one or down to 1% but for all basic calcs you use 2%. That is just a fact that is used by every doc in every clinic. Sorry if that is speaking out of my ass and offended you.

It is a broad statement but would tend to follow the rules set in place by nature for the human body. There are many things that can impact estrogen level including weight and bf% and a hundred other items.

I am not a doctor. I do not pretend to be one nor do I sit behind a website trying to be a doctor. Since I was diagnosed with low test I have studied my arse off and learned facts and tried to leave bro science out of it all. What percent of people fall at 1000 total testosterone naturally? What percent of people fall into 1000 TT on TrT? I can speak for those with natural TT over 1000.

There is only one age group (4 year age blocks total of 20 blocks) that has a 95th percentile that reaches 1000. So you are looking at just that age group having less than 7 of every 100 people with over 1000 TT. Of them 0 were on estrogen control.

If TrT is done right you will see the same ratio of people with correct TrT dosages at the 1000 level. If they are healthy the same rules apply. Now when you start seeing people who get estrogen issues with a 1000 TT level on TrT know what I say? If there are less than 1 in a 1000 people on the face of the earth with TT of 1000 why are there so darn many people walking around on TrT with 1000? Self medication.

A doctor prescribing medicine for 95th percentile levels better have a darn good case for it and a lot of paperwork covering his butt. The moment something bad happens his treatment is suspect and he is suspended medical license. A patient prescribing his own levels that fall in the 95th percentile and a doctor seeing that in the bloodwork will automatically go to reduce dosage unless..as said above...he has an extensive paperwork trail CYA.

In conclusion, if I was a doctor I would see 0 patients that I prescribed 95th percentile medicine to. 1000TT via TrT is going to be self medication outside a doctors prescribed regime. If I did meet one of these 1000TT individuals naturally that now need TrT odds would favor not needing estrogen control. This is statistical analysis. Some anti-aging clinic provide some odds and it would be great information to know.

But again who knows..one of the more respected guys on the subject from Harvard barely mentions in passing about gyno...because if TrT is done correctly it is not a real issue. Hemocrit and such...yes....

A Harvard expert shares his thoughts on testosterone-replacement therapy - Harvard Prostate Knowledge - Harvard Health Publications

You may be aware of these facts already, but I can't be bothered to read through all your posts to confirm it.
Either way, they are important to the discussion at hand:
1) test injections will yield higher estrogen levels and lower DHT than creams or natural test production. So a natural T level of 1000 ng/dl is less likely to require an AI than an injected 1,000 ng/dl.
2) Injected test provides a much more consistent blood level than natural test (which is a pulsatile release and peaks in the morning). So 1,000 ng/dl on TRT is actually higher (causing more E2 conversion, RBC production, and other sides) than a natural reading of 1,000 ng/dl.