BW came back today need some advice

Right now I'm on 50mg of clomid daily from my Endo and my levels have now been sitting at 684-715 range and he thinks that's fine. The max normal value for the test range is 1052. What I want to know is this: I've read on here with guys using clomid during and even after their stacks so that they don't shut down. I'm curious if I can attain as close as I can to that range with an injection, pill, or topical treatment to get that extra oomph up to the top end of the range. I know there is the possibility of using HCG but my Endo said that not enough research has gone into it to where he feels it's a safe or even long term solution. I mean I'm 31, I'll accept my levels where they are at right now because they are over twofold better than before (178-284). I really want to be at the top end of the spectrum just because it would be nice to have 18 year old levels to work out with and the wisdom of experience.

Too much of a fantasy or pipe dream?

Oh and I will look into full TRT after I get married, settle down and have kids, just not now due to the sterility risks involved. I'm also single, so not rally anyone other than you guys to discuss this with haha!

You can remain fertile on trt. I'm 28 and just went on.

I've heard there are long term risks associated with clomid treatment. Can't attest to those.

With test, your levels can be upper range. Hcg will keep the boys looking and working right. I'm glad I went on, I'm only 3 weeks in but feel better then I have in years (although I feel my dosage will probably be increased)

It honestly sounds like your endo isn't up to date with the latest treatments

Well he I believe he is because when I ask him certain things he cites and knows what I'm referring to. He didn't want to go the TRT-HCG route just because there's not enough long term data that supports that treatment apparently (eventual Leydig desensitization). He's more or less the type that is like well you're in a comfortable range and better than where you were. Call me obsessive but I'm one of those people that likes to to maximize things as much as possible, so surfing at the top of the range would be way more fun and way better imho rather than chilling in the high middle.

I mean I'll accept it but I like to strive for excellence.

This is a common deal. . One question before we proceed any further, how do you feel at your current levels? Are your symptoms better? Do you think you feel like you should?

50mg of Clomid is way too much. I'd try to get down to 25mg EOD or even 12.5 EOD.

I believe the risks of long-term low-dose Clomid are very low. The drug actually has a lot of other benefits, including strengthening bones and reducing cholesterol. Imo, it's the ideal form of TRT if you respond to it.

If you want to experience super high testosterone levels, you can do cycles and cruise on Clomid. I wouldn't recommend trying to keep your T at a constant level of 1,000. It's neither as healthy nor as effective as boosting your T to 5,000 for a few weeks and then lowering it to 600 for several months. I believe 600-700 is the sweet spot for long term health and well-being.

Thanks slates, that's good info to know. How would one cruise on clomid? Say, 12.5-25mg EOD and a cycle? (I've never cycled before except with a PH and that was years and years ago, I don't know if that counts though either haha)

Ok Hawk, let's go further. I feel fine, but I'd rather feel more amped up. I dunno how to describe it but when I started I had a great amped feeling (I assume bc Test was finally going north of 300) but I guess I don't feel like that all the time? Sex life is great and not really feeling depressed anymore, 6-7 days of the week I wake up with wood. I feel bad for saying I want more out of it all haha but I do.

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Originally Posted by Rodax

Thanks slates, that's good info to know. How would one cruise on clomid? Say, 12.5-25mg EOD and a cycle? (I've never cycled before except with a PH and that was years and years ago, I don't know if that counts though either haha)

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Just do a typical cycle with your AAS of choice, HCG, and AI. Then do a standard PCT with Clomid but instead of tapering off completely, cruise on a low dose of 12.5 or 25 EOD (or as low as you can go and still maintain acceptable levels). Taking a very low dose AI (e.g., .25 Arimidex a week) works very well to further boost T on Clomid. I've gotten my T over 1,000 with this combination.

Well Slates if I go down this route I'll have to figure out some logistics on the HCG and a cycle. Never really wanted badly enough to cycle in my 20's to find a source and establish a relationship or something haha just kept with a couple PH cycles with PCT after 25 and took a break for a few years. Got tested for low T when I was 30 bc I had my suspicions and here I am at 31.

Side note if I take or ask for a script for Arimidex at a low dose to boost it further, would that work and what's wrong with just doing that then? I mean aside from not jumping over 5000 and make insane gains and then coming back down to 700 the rest of the time.

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Originally Posted by Rodax

Ok Hawk, let's go further. I feel fine, but I'd rather feel more amped up. I dunno how to describe it but when I started I had a great amped feelng (I assume bc Test was finally going north of 300) but I guess I don't feel like that all the time? Sex life is great and not really feeling depressed anymore, 6-7 days of the week I wake up with wood. I feel bad for saying I want more out of it all haha but I do.

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sounds to me like the Clomid therapy is working for your every day needs. If yoy want more, cycle test for 12-14 weeks (maybe 10 as a starter cycle). That is considering your diet lifting and body composition are ideal for a cycle.

The ph cycle is honestly probably what got your levels so low to begin with

Everyday needs Hawk? I dunno...I had high expectations coming into this haha! Anyway I assume you mean off hop clomid, cycle for like 10 weeks, then hop back on?

Diet is fine Protein 40+% Carbs 20ish% Fats 20ish%, lift 4 days a week already (but I'm at a plateau so I'm changing it up in the next few days). Under 20% bf (15% on a good fasting day according to pics/my scale) but I dunno how "ideal" that is for a cycle.

I will admit I felt ignorant doing ph's and even worse thinking that I wouldn't be affected by it, but I suppose that it's possible. I did everything I was supposed to though, liver care during and start PCT before ending it. It was M-drol though and it was potent.

sounds like you're capable of a cycle.

As far as the details of that, I'll leave it to somebody more experienced. I'm only on trt, never cycled

Thanks Hawk, now to ponder or not ponder how to obtain said cycle materials haha

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Originally Posted by Rodax

Well he I believe he is because when I ask him certain things he cites and knows what I'm referring to. He didn't want to go the TRT-HCG route just because there's not enough long term data that supports that treatment apparently (eventual Leydig desensitization). He's more or less the type that is like well you're in a comfortable range and better than where you were. Call me obsessive but I'm one of those people that likes to to maximize things as much as possible, so surfing at the top of the range would be way more fun and way better imho rather than chilling in the high middle.

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He's not. There's ton's of data to support it. A simple Pub-Med or google search will bring it up. Your doctor is simply refuting what he does not know. And leydig cell desensitization would only occur with excessive doses, if at all, not the minimal amounts used for TRT purposes.

Both of the below guys are top notch in this industry:

HCG in Males with Low Testosterone - Jeffrey Dach MD

Nelson Vergel's Blog - The Use of HCG to Increase Testicular Size and Sex Drive While on Testosterone Replacement Therapy - October 22, 2011 10:43

And surfing at the top of the range only opens the door for more issues down the road. TRT is not a more is better approach. Better is better. It's about your long term health. Get dialed in with a healthy, safe protocol and if you want to then cycle, so be it.

^^^^What kel said. Everyone thinks it's superman time with trt, its about being normal. We all feel above it all for a while because we were low for a long time. If you're functioning normal now, feel good and can produce in the bedroom, you're there. Ideally you want to accomplish this with as little as possible.

Thanks Kel, I went to those sites and read over some stuff on there. This one thing From Vergel's site confirmed my suspicions: "Also, there are no long-term studies using HCG for more than 2 years. Due to its effect on testosterone, HCG use can also increase estradiol and DHT, although I have not seen data that shows if this increase is proportional to the dose used. So, the best dose of HCG to sustain normal testicular function while keeping estradiol and DHT conversion to a minimum has not been established." I think the longest for clomid, to my knowledge (if I'm remembering correctly), was 3-5 years on Pubmed.

The lack of long term studies are why my Endo is being cautious about that path. He's not closed off to it or not entertaining it, he just wants data to support years of use - not a short term solution. They were using Clomid back in the 80's and 90's for Test, there's literature out there, but the Endo my guy interned with had done this for his patients who did not want to lose testicular function for over 10 years before my guy studied with him. HCG and studies of HCG are relatively new and there are too many unknowns with long term use that research and time have not proven yet. I'm still single, I haven't married at all yet nor do I have some genetic legacy of mine running around out in the world. One day I want to have kids and a family, but until then I still want that option available to me before looking at going TRT and freezing some swimmers for good measure in case I stop producing later on.

Don't get me wrong, I asked for TRT and HCG shots and showed him the literature when I walked in there back in June of last year. He showed me several PubMed articles (I saw him for like an hour that day bc we were going back and forth with our arguments). I honestly kinda think he's right, for now. If in March when I see him again, I will ask about TRT and HCG. At this point I'm comfortable with the path I'm on right now and willing to accept it (although the only drawback I found to having T levels close to 1000 was increase in risky behavior and smoking tendencies in the articles I scholar-googled off the fly). More than likely if I still feel this way about this at the end of March, I'll be more inclined to prolly cycle the way Slates and Hawk suggested above and try to figure something out with an online pharmacy or research company gear I guess? Anyway that's where I'm at. Sorry for the long post.

Well, good luck with things. I still think your doc needs to get up to speed with HCG. The top doc's in the TRT field, Crisler, Dach, Shippen, Morgantaler and anyone A4M Certified all support the use of HCG. And this field is their specialty.

Thanks Kel, will do. I probably will press for trt with hcg when I go in March. And I don't believe those TRT centers are covered on my ins. Outside of just like blood work. Idk...blue cross blue shield ppo craziness. With my endo I only pay the 40 copay and the tests are covered. Clomid isn't but generic is pretty cheap, like $48/month maybe. Anyway, we'll see what happens after March I suppose. I definitely will cite those sites to him and see what he does with that and go from there.