Junior Member
I can't seem to find a concrete answer to the normal levels of total testosterone. My total T is 533 and I am 38 years old. Extensive blood work indicated no issue with estrogen, glands etc. Because I am somewhat symptomatic (fatigue, some anxiety and slow recovery after workouts) and have been considering boosting my T to the 1000-1100 range. Does this make sense?
Junior Member
see Testosterone: What's a Normal Testosterone Level in Men? | The Art of Manliness
For both of the studies in that post you're less than 1 std deviation below the mean for your age group.
Unless you have really serious symptoms and distinctly low numbers, you are better off working on lifestyle changes (see that article for examples) to improve your health. TRT has a lot of downsides. It's for life. It's not as good as natural- see how many other things you need to take (AI, HCG, Dhea, etc).
I would be VERY happy to trade my TRT for the natural level that you have.
AR-Hall of Famer
Low is going to be under 300 ng/dl most would love to have your level
Junior Member
I really appreciate it.
I guess my issue now is low free T which is 1018 (ref 8.8-27.00).
I am taking vitamin D to see if it helps. I was deficient in vitamin D.
SHGB was normal.
Knowledgeable Member
Excellent web page and I think it pretty well answers your question. I'd just add that the same TT of 533 for another man may be terrific, but for you it might be way too low - which apparently it is. So there is really no such thing as "normal". You should go by how you feel. Also, the Free Testosterone level is a more useful number as you probably have already learned.Originally Posted by sparverius
I would suggest you go though a series of very detailed diagnostics to rule out other causes of you symptoms. As Sparvius made clear, TRT is for life and should not be embarked upon without good cause.
Junior Member
But according to the chart, my total testosterone of 533 falls under the 65-74 year old men!
Am I reading this correctly?
AR-Hall of Famer
No 533 ng/dl is a very good reading. I would imagine most 65-74 yr olds have much lower t levels. There are always some exception but I said most. What time of day did you have your labs run? Was it within the first couple hrs of waking?
Knowledgeable Member
I'm 66 and I don't feel right unless I have a TT over 950 and a FT in the upper 200s. Numbers by themselves don't mean shite. You have to go by how you feel.
Productive Member
I'm just above 600 and would trade with you in a second. It's not just testosterone it's HCG, then probably struggling with an AI. Blood work every four or six weeks, and you may not be "normal" for up to six months or more till you're dialed in. Injections two or three times a week, always shopping around for the best prices because it's probably not covered. I would get off this in a second if I could. I would also suggest a lifestyle adjustment. Proper nutrition and exercise can raise your testosterone and make a world of difference.
Junior Member
What if I do a cycle just to see how I feel? I'd like to know what I would feel like having 1000-1100 levels. If I notice no difference, I will come off, get on HCG to get my testicles started again. I really appreciate your guys input. I know this is a big decision. The good thing with Nebido is that you take one shot every 12 weeks, and not weekly. If I want my levels higher I can take it earlier. I am currently in Bogota COlombia and I can get this stuff easily here.
Knowledgeable Member
First, it's not uncommon for a man to achieve a TT of 1100 - and higher - on TRT alone - but why would you want this? There are many sides that may accompany this and you don't want them. TRT should only be therapeutic in order to alleviate your symptoms so that you feel great. That's it. It's purpose is not to turn anyone into a superman, sex machine. Also, once you are on TRT, you are TOTALLY shut down. Never mind cycling. You'll need to start hCG concurrently with TRT to keep your testicles functioning anyway.
It seems to me that you've got a lot of homework to do. I'd suggest you sit back and do a lot of reading on this subject. Also stay active on this forum. You'll pick up a very great deal in a relatively short time and the people here will be glad to answer your questions.
Junior Member
Thanks, 2Sox. So, you are saying that the testicles are shut down permanently once you start? Based on the reading I've done in this forum, it looks like once you come off there are drugs like HCG that help you restart natural production. Now, can you take TR and HCG at the same time? You would be sending mixed signals to your body. Once you inject synthetic testosterone into your body, the body responds by shutting down the production because it senses there is too much testosterone. But if you tell your body to ignore the extra T, and keep producing, what happens? I guess this is a better question for a urologist or endo. But I appreciate you sharing your experiences.
Knowledgeable Member
You'll have to rephrase your question because it's not clear what you are asking. Nevertheless, let me take a guess at what you want to know:
If you are on TRT, you body no longer makes it's own testosterone. You need hCG to have your body produce it. If you stop TRT, your body may NEVER go back to producing T at the same level it had before - even with hCG alone. (And why would you want to anyway? Low levels are why people start TRT in the first place.) That's why it is said, "TRT is for life."
There are no mixed signals to your body if you take T along with hCG. Since your HPTA is shut down, and your pituitary is no longer sending out LH to your testicles, you're merely introducing the LH signal through the hCG your injecting. You're actually trying to reproduce a natural state of affairs with hCG therapy. The extra T your testicles are producing adds to the T your are injecting. There is no "ignoring". There is no conflict at all.
From what I've observed on this forum, you'll get better answers here than at most doctor's offices.
Last edited by 2Sox; 04-06-2014 at 09:46 AM.
Junior Member
Is it possible to be symptomatic with 533 levels. My main thing is slow gym recovery, anxiety and fatigue. Sex drive is fine but not what once was.
Senior Member
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned. .
While total t is important, free t is the number you're after. You mentioned your level, and it is at the bottom of the range.
You can't just test drive trt. It's a permanent thing. There are people that have done restarts, but chances of that working are slim.
I would work on lifestyle changes. As well as diet and supplement changes. You're at levels we would love to have naturally. You could probably achieve what you're after with just a few changes.
Good luck
Junior Member
What would be those life style changes. I am already working out 5 times per week, taking vitamin D and eating fruits and vegetables. I don't eat much red meat (once per week). I average about 7 hours of sleep every night. Anything else I should be doing? My lifting consists mainly of bench press, shoulder press, squats and some dead lifts. I have been naturally skinny (150 pounds and 6'0!!).
Associate Member
Do you supplement protein? The snapshot you gave of your diet seems low in protein, which like testosterone is key in muscle building.
Junior Member
I take about 30 grams of protein after workout and eat three regular meals. Breakfast is huge, 3 eggs with cheese and potatoes, large oatmeal and fruits (around 8am).
I have a cereal between breakfast and lunch. My lunch is at 12pm and it consists of a chicken breast, rice and avocados. I have a cereal before my workout (230pm). I workout at 3pm and after my workout I have my protein shake (30grams).
At 6pm I have a heavy dinner, chicken breast with pasta and salad (sometimes a steak). I then have a full glass of milk after. At 10pm I may have another protein shake if I don't feel too full. Usually I have another full glass of milk with bananas before heading to bed.
I have gained 15 pounds since I started 5 months (I used to be 137!!). I see some muscle definition and sometimes I get a really nice pump at the gym, but if I workout too hard, I am very sore for a couple of days. I cannot workout the next day if I push myself too hard. I attribute it to low free testosterone. I started working out 5 months ago. Progress is too slow.
I want to blow up and I thought that increasing my testosterone from 533 to 1100 would help me. Would it?
There are days when I am very proud how I look, particularly when I see my arms in the mirror. But in recent days, I feel sorry about how I look I can't even explain why my arms would shrink so dramatically. This is forcing to consider testosterone. Please don't judge me.
Last edited by jump100; 04-06-2014 at 03:52 PM.
Senior Member
What you're talking about is a cycle. Not trt.
You can post in the other sections in here asking about cycles. But I'll save you some time. . You're too small for a cycle. You need a solid foundation before cycling.
Associate Member
You are sore and fatigued all the time because you don't eat enough, for one. 3 eggs in the morning and 30 grams of protein post workout is bird food. Add in your third meal and you probably aren't breaking 100 grams of protein in the day. You need to double your protein intake at the least. You need to eat 5-6 times per day, not 3. These are some of the lifestyle changes you need to impliment. Also, why not red meat?
Junior Member
I think you are absolutely right about eating, but sometimes I feel like my stomach is going to burst wide open if eat more. I was hoping that more T would close the deal. My wife cooks me a steak once per week but I guess I can always ask her to do it three times per week. I am beginning to learn that eating is the hardest part about getting size. I hate food (honestly). I eat because I need to in order to stay alive.
I guess I am not the only one who feel the same about eating. I bodybuilder, I believe Mr. Cuytler, said he hated food and he eats 8 times per day. No wonder he hates to eat.
Associate Member
You don't necessarily need to eat more per meal. Just eat more meals. If you can't eat it then drink it. Aim for around 200 proteins per day. Lean red meat is one of the best protein sources available imho. I eat it once or twice a day and have done so for most of my life. You are what you eat....so they say.
Associate Member
Work on diet / size 1st. Just today I watched someone tear a pec because he was about your size, went on a cycle was bench pressing about 165 max before his cycle, did 315 today @ rep 3 he yelled and I watched his pec roll up into his chest. Get a good base before you do any cycle, hell even trt I would get a good base as in you workout hard and a good diet for years and @ 6' 150 you are not at that point unless you want to rip something up.
Look at a 5x5 linear progression program and try to add weight to the bar weekly if you can, even 5 pounds a week = over 200 a year. Most people at the gym do the same weight / same reps and wonder why they don't get any stronger
Junior Member
[QUOTE=Ryanmcd;6843335]Work on diet / size 1st. Just today I watched someone tear a pec because he was about your size, went on a cycle was bench pressing about 165 max before his cycle, did 315 today @ rep 3 he yelled and I watched his pec roll up into his chest. Get a good base before you do any cycle, hell even trt I would get a good base as in you workout hard and a good diet for years and @ 6' 150 you are not at that point unless you want to rip something up.
Look at a 5x5 linear progression program and try to add weight to the bar weekly if you can, even 5 pounds a week = over 200 a year. Most people at the gym do the same weight / same reps and wonder why they don't get any stronger
Thanks for the reply.
Although I am 150 pounds, I consider myself to be a bit stronger than average. I can bench 205, not bad for someone 150. My elbows do hurt to the touch when I go super heavy.
Now, my question is this, what is the standard weight before someone gets on the juice? If I ever get on it, I do not wish to go 3 times over the limit. I understand it can get very dangerous. If you raise your limits to 2000ndl (twice the upper limit) can you see significant gains granted that you are eating well?
Associate Member
At 6'0, standard weight is at least 200 before a cycle with a respectable BF level.
Member
What good is that level if you still feel like garbage? Its all individual. For this guy its too low it seems.
Knowledgeable Member
Skimmed through the thread and keep seeing the topic of age come up. Age should be removed from the discussion completely and does not play any part of any legitimate role in the discussion IMO. That's one of the worst things about TRT in the U.S....physicians are so hung up on age and averages in certain age groups that they've basically made themselves semi-retarded in the process. Optimal testosterone numbers are and will always be the same regardless of the age of an adult male. Optimal oxygen is the same no matter how old you are, optimal pulse rate, optimal blood pressure, optimal eye sight, optimal this and that...these things do not change and I wish people would stop acting like they do.
Knowledgeable Member
Totally agree. Well said.
Associate Member
Exactly!
Associate Member
[QUOTE=jump100;6843344]What helped me gain the most size was the compound movements like the squat and dead-lift, and to be honest it cut my gym workout in time as well so I was getting stronger and less time in the gym. I think a lot of people over complicate this stuff but it's easy, add weight to the bar when your form is good as often as you can and you will get stronger / bigger.Work on diet / size 1st. Just today I watched someone tear a pec because he was about your size, went on a cycle was bench pressing about 165 max before his cycle, did 315 today @ rep 3 he yelled and I watched his pec roll up into his chest. Get a good base before you do any cycle, hell even trt I would get a good base as in you workout hard and a good diet for years and @ 6' 150 you are not at that point unless you want to rip something up.
Look at a 5x5 linear progression program and try to add weight to the bar weekly if you can, even 5 pounds a week = over 200 a year. Most people at the gym do the same weight / same reps and wonder why they don't get any stronger
Thanks for the reply.
Although I am 150 pounds, I consider myself to be a bit stronger than average. I can bench 205, not bad for someone 150. My elbows do hurt to the touch when I go super heavy.
Now, my question is this, what is the standard weight before someone gets on the juice? If I ever get on it, I do not wish to go 3 times over the limit. I understand it can get very dangerous. If you raise your limits to 2000ndl (twice the upper limit) can you see significant gains granted that you are eating well?
My guess is your back/legs are lacking.
Junior Member
You are right, my legs and back are the weakest parts of my body. Right on!
Senior Member
Disagree. My treatment for ED is via trt. The two are closely connected.
Knowledgeable Member
??? Of course, TRT alleviates ED. You don't disagree at all. Please think about what I said here.
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