hCG more than twice a week is a waste of time???

[2Sox]

I just picked this off another forum and I was very surprised to read it. I tried to verify this and I could find no facts that did. (This is not to say these facts don't exist. I just couldn't find them.)

So I'm throwing this out to all of you to find out if this is true or not true.

In addition, if anyone can explain and clarify the details below in point #2, that would be great. I think this is something we can all learn from.


They are completely wasting their HCG [more that twice a week] for 2 reasons:

1. 100 IU a day doesn't do jack to offset suppression. Studies have show it took 700IU a week to offset suppression.

2. HCG has a bi phasic pattern, it stimulates the release of testosterone initially, and then the testes go into whats called a refractory period, and will not be stimulated again for 72 hours.

just because someone is "doing just fine" [on 100iu/day] doesn't really mean anything.

[PJS19]

this is interesting Ill be following this thread to see what vets say. I know for me 250 IU doesnt seem to be enough but 325-350 does.

[phaedo]

I've never heard of this "bi-phasic pattern" for the testes. LH is pulsed, to some extent via GnRH, but is in normal measurable amounts anytime of the day.

The "700 IU" number is often referred from a study which (if I recall off the top of my head) determined 700 - 1000 IU's as the maximum hCG to maintain testicular function and not inflict Leydig cell damage. Moreover, that same study referenced 310 IU as the maximum receptive amount as a single dose for the Leydig cells.

Honestly, I doubt there is a difference between injecting two, three, or seven times a week. I personally inject hCG twice a week since I inject testosterone twice a week. I haven't noticed any change in E2 or testicular size. I did have a semen analysis schedule next week, so I'll post the difference between dosing twice a week and seven times a week.

[shooter7561]

For me, there is significant shrinkage at 750 but less so at 1,000 to 1,250 IUs, which is what I take twice a week about 24 hours prior to my T dose. Also, I thought the Leydig cell damage theory at higher doses had been debunked????

[hawk14dl]

I'm at 350iu 2x a week. This was my prescribed amount.

Perhaps my dr had heard this same thing? I'm not sure.

Im fine. Wouldn't know I was on trt by looking. Lol

[Ryanmcd]

I have been on HCG a few years now and have tried every combo and I like 100 a day the best and I feel the best on it. I always think back to what Crisler told me is the body wants to be regular and that's why people are going to 2x a week with test as well and why he likes the daily gels a lot too.

At 250, 2-3x a week I was getting slight acne on my upper chest, at 100 a day I have no issues, this is w/o any AI.

Also doing Sub-Q 2x a week and a few natural things to keep my E2 down like copper and zinc.


It all boils down to what works for YOU and how YOU feel to be honest, I say fuk a study I have tried to chase numbers and all that crap and felt like shit when numbers said I should feel great so just do what feels best for YOU then get your bloodwork done then you know your personal sweet spot. That is as long as they are in range

[Docd187123]

I just picked this off another forum and I was very surprised to read it. I tried to verify this and I could find no facts that did. (This is not to say these facts don't exist. I just couldn't find them.)

So I'm throwing this out to all of you to find out if this is true or not true.

In addition, if anyone can explain and clarify the details below in point #2, that would be great. I think this is something we can all learn from.


They are completely wasting their HCG [more that twice a week] for 2 reasons:

1. 100 IU a day doesn't do jack to offset suppression. Studies have show it took 700IU a week to offset suppression.

2. HCG has a bi phasic pattern, it stimulates the release of testosterone initially, and then the testes go into whats called a refractory period, and will not be stimulated again for 72 hours.

just because someone is "doing just fine" [on 100iu/day] doesn't really mean anything.

1) 100iu/day = 700iu per week? Not understanding what you're asking here.

2) one study reporting the BENEFITS of one injection priming for a follow up injection

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1985 Nov;61(5):926-32.
Self-priming effect of luteinizing hormone-human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) upon the biphasic testicular response to exogenous hCG. I. Serum testosterone profile.
Ulloa-Aguirre A, Mendez JP, Diaz-Sánchez V, Altamirano A, Pérez-Palacios G.
Abstract
The present study was conducted to investigate whether the early (2-8 h) testicular response to a single dose of exogenous hCG depends on previous exposure to LH activity. Four different groups of subjects were studied: 1) four normal adult men [Tanner stage-G5 (T-G5)] and one late pubertal subject (T-G4); 2) normal prepubertal (T-G1) and early- and midpubertal boys (T-G2 and T-G3) (n = 4-6 each); 3) five patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH); and 4) two patients with the complete form of the androgen insensitivity syndrome. Each subject received an im injection of hCG (40 IU/kg) on day 1 and blood samples were drawn before and 1-8, 24, 48, and 72 h after injection. At 96 h, a second dose of hCG was given (80 IU/kg) and blood samples were obtained at the same times as after the first hCG dose. Serum testosterone (T) was measured by RIA. The first dose of hCG evoked a biphasic response of serum T in groups T-G2 to T-G5 as well as in the two patients with the complete form of the androgen insensitivity syndrome. The early peak was at 2-7 h, whereas the late T peak was at 48-72 h after injection. In T-G1 children and in patients with HH, the early response did not occur [T-G1, from 129 +/- 43 (SEM) to 288 +/- 127 pg/ml (P greater than 0.05); HH, 79 +/- 18 to 107 +/- 12 (P greater than 0.05) pg/ml], and the late peak was attenuated as compared with the pubertal boys. There were not significant differences in the responses of the T-G1 and the HH groups. After the second dose, all groups had biphasic T responses, although they varied in magnitude. These results demonstrate that previous exposure to LH activity is an obligatory prerequisite for the early peak of the hCG-mediated biphasic testicular response, and that a single dose of hCG has a priming effect that is sufficient to ensure a biphasic response to a second dose of hCG given 96 h later.

[johnhenry]

http://www.*************.com/forum/s...ort-on-HCG-Use I don't know the answer to your question 2Sox, but this paper by Dr John Crisler is very educational. I am on 350iu eod at the moment (1000iu/wk). I started on 700 but developed aching testicles - on the advice of some of the guys, upped it to 1000iu/wk. Seems okay. Periodically, the boys still ache, but not often. JH.

[2Sox]

1) 100iu/day = 700iu per week? Not understanding what you're asking here.

2) one study reporting the BENEFITS of one injection priming for a follow up injection

Yes, I agree. His point #1 was confusing. Not clear what HE'S trying to say. I'M not trying to say anything - jut trying to make sense of his point.

Thank you for posting this study. As I interpret it, after your first shot of hCG, you get a peak within 2-7 hours. Then you get another peak 48-72 hours later from that same shot. This is where the "biphasic" comes in. So this guy seems to be saying that it's a waste to inject again anytime before this 72 hour period is up; that you're throwing away your hCG if you do so. This seems to make sense BUT, what is absent here is data to disprove the fact that if you DO inject again before that time, there could be FURTHER stimulus to the testes and a greater spike in T production. Further, the second bump in this study was a weaker one in all cases. There are many things at play that do not necessarily contradict each other and which offers no proof that multiple doses of hCG per week would not be beneficial.

[Beethoven]

As I understood it, 100 iu was the minimum which he claimed doesn't do jack, as where 700 iu seemed to be the minimum to do any good. I used to be on 1000 iu's a week but my E2 was way high, so I cut to 500 iu's a week and feel good.

[PJS19]

so is this saying we should be dosing HCG 96 hours apart? Im sort of confused?

[2Sox]

so is this saying we should be dosing HCG 96 hours apart? Im sort of confused?

I don't think so. All the data is not present in that study. Read my post again. I think this will be clear. It doesn't say anything for or against the effectiveness of frequent dosing - so it's really an individual's choice.

[dreadnok89]

The ache in the tezticles is good tho! It let's you know they are still alive!

[Ryanmcd]

I would rather work with one of the top doc's in TRT and see's 100's if not 1000's of people a year and talks to other top docs about TRT and gets feedback from them and they all come from different walks of life vs 1 study from 1985.

It's back to the old who would you rather have work on your car, a guy who has been doing it 10 years or a guy reading about it 10 years. The more people a doc sees / works with the bigger the sample size he has for strange cases and better he can work with the average person.

[kelkel]

Crisler is a proponent of low dose, daily HCG injections.

[Ryanmcd]

Crisler is a proponent of low dose, daily HCG injections.

And that's what I have been doing now for 1.5 years w/o any issues at all and a great E2 w/o any AI.

[Moparman]

My doc has me on 350 ius 2x a week. Works great for me.

[j2048b]

Crisler is a proponent of low dose, daily HCG injections.

is this along w test? or simply hcg by itself?

[Docd187123]

is this along w test? or simply hcg by itself?

Dr. Crisler uses HCG alongside TRT therapy

[j2048b]

Dr. Crisler uses HCG alongside TRT therapy

Yes i know crisler, but just had to ask

Man doc, u on a lot of forums bro? Haha see u in the underground

[j2048b]

Yes i know crisler, but just had to ask Man doc, u on a lot of forums bro? Haha see u in the underground

Also when did he switch to this protocol? Last hcg write up i read by crisler he was advocating 2 shots day before and 2 days before test shot...

[j2048b]

Also when did he switch to this protocol? Last hcg write up i read by crisler he was advocating 2 shots day before and 2 days before test shot...

I mean a single shot day before and another single shot 2 days before test shot

[Ryanmcd]

Also when did he switch to this protocol? Last hcg write up i read by crisler he was advocating 2 shots day before and 2 days before test shot...

Years ago, don't think he's going to give everything he knows away to random people on the internet Not only that but it would not be fair for the people like me that pay for the latest/greatest info.

Things change all the time as new info comes out that does not get posted here.

[sickdog]

My dr has me on TRT with no hcg. I noticed a lot of shrinkage in my testicles and ask him if there was anything we could do about it and he replied no I didn't need anything. My question to you is did the hcg help with testicle shrinkage?

[Schwarzenegger]

My dr has me on TRT with no hcg. I noticed a lot of shrinkage in my testicles and ask him if there was anything we could do about it and he replied no I didn't need anything. My question to you is did the hcg help with testicle shrinkage?

Hcg def helps with reversing shrinkage,, that is, until u bust a nut hah.

But it works. I do 250iu 2x/wk

[lovbyts]

Crisler is a proponent of low dose, daily HCG injections.

The only problem I see with that is even with insulin syringes you become a walking pincushion.

[Ryanmcd]

The only problem I see with that is even with insulin syringes you become a walking pincushion.

I do the shot in my quad everyday, no issues. 31g

The biggest thing for me is keeping my E2 and test lvls as level as I can. I don't want to say I feel great 3 days a week or sex is good Wed-Friday and with the daily HCG and 2 test shots a week I think I keep about the same levels as I did on the Gel's and on the gels I felt the best just did not like DHT 3x the range, the cost and the PIA to use and it stopped working.