TRT and Gym exertion

[DiverMike]

Hey guys,

Just getting sorted out here and currently 200mg/ml weekly which was bringing my levels to just below 300 and which the doc is leaving me with as i lose more weight.. however just over 3 weeks ago i went to 200mg/ml x 2 a week as i felt it was needed, i have not had blood work on it but assuming its gotta be mid 300s docs say i have poor absorption.

Question I have is i have been told by a couple of people that taking my TRT and then still hitting my bike and the gym trying to not just lose the weight thats required but also get healthy and stronger.. that doing all this is just depleting my T and im not helping myself.

Can anyone chime in on how it actually works, or point me in the right direction, been kind of told to just take my doses, do my low cal diet and let sleeping dogs ly.. but its not how i want to get this done.. Is the double dose standing up to the 45 min work outs 4 times a week and 45 min rides 2-3 times a week? Or do i need to increase it even more if 200mg is keeping me just below 300 in a sedative state.

[hawk14dl]

Something is bad wrong here.

Can you post the ranges for your testosterone? For example, most of our ranges are 349-1049 or something like that, where 700-800 is optimal.

Just my opinion, 200mg a week is a high dose. 400mg a week is a cycle.

[DiverMike]

Hawk,

Long story short i was 420 18 months ago down to 180 now.. diagnosed with Low T 18 months ago and my first test was short of 200.. over the last 18 months we have gone through a number of applications and doses starting with androgel, to transdermal patches and orals.. to IM injections about 6 months ago.. and the doses have gone from 100mg/ml per month to every two weeks to weekly to 200mg/ml per week.. recently just over a month ago the Doc has said im on the largest dose and my levels have come up to 300. He has said it a mix of my other medications, diabetes and such that's causing the lack of absorption and such.. so he has said i will remain on the 200mg/ml a week for the next 6 months when i see him next, claiming to keep up with the weight loss and that will ad with the Test going back up over time.

So as of the last blood work it was 300, he said i had High thyroids and sorry forgot the name but the chemical from the brain that tells the testies to create test was low which is clear from two years ago which is why i was put on TRT.

it was my thoughts recently that its summer and i want to make the most of it.. im not happy just sitting around on a low calorie diet losing the weight and want to get fit and hit the gym and i have the test from my perscriptions so want to maximize what i can with it. So moved to the 400mg just over three weeks ago and honesty this week have been feeling better... for example today.. i did a 9 Km ride which end of last summer that would do me in for the rest of the day/night.. yet here im sitting waiting for my wife to get home and want to go and hit the gym for another good workout...

[Beethoven]

Diver, I agree with hawk. There is something seriously wrong here. 400 mg a week is bb cycle. It is not trt. You should post your complete BW with ranges. I don't see how in the world a Dr is prescribing you 400 mg a week. I also don't see your levels low at that dosage.

[jomamma007]

If you are injecting once a week, splitting up your pins can keep your levels more stable. I know by day 6 my levels go from 900 to 400ish and if you get bloodwork the day of your next pin this could be happening to you.

400mg would put most guys around a 2-3k test level.

[Times Roman]

Diver, I agree with hawk. There is something seriously wrong here. 400 mg a week is bb cycle. It is not trt. You should post your complete BW with ranges. I don't see how in the world a Dr is prescribing you 400 mg a week. I also don't see your levels low at that dosage.

I'm going to jump on the "me too" band wagon. 400mg/week is TOO much for a TRT dose.

and "POOR ABSORBTION"? what does that mean? test just doesn't evaporate and go unused. you inject it, and your body will use it. I understand everybody utilizes test differently.+
+

for example, I'm at 80mg/week, test c, and that puts me in the mid 700's. But you are taking 5x as much, with only half the results?

either your test is suspect, results are wrong, or something else is going on.

if all else fails, get a new doc. you should NOT be taking 400mg/test/week for the rest of your life.

how is your RBC?
Blood pressure?


something aint right mate!

[DiverMike]

My prescription is for 200mg a week.. and on that prescription for 3 months my blood work came back at 290.. and the endo said normal ranges are 300-1000 and he would like to see me around 500.. the 290 was a slight increase from the previous 3 month work of 270 i believe. He said he was going to leave me on the 200mg and to come back in 6 months that my weight loss has been doing well and he has seen my levels improve the more i lose.. So the prescription is for 200mg/ml weekly on a 1500 calorie a day diet.. I want to get fit.. i want to ride daily, go to the gym a few times a week i can't do that on 1500 calories a day, and i can't lose weight on 290 testosterone levels.. So I took it upon myself after last months appointment where he did not increase the dose and said it would be 6 months before i see him again to double my dose to get the most i can out of the summer.. in Canada we have 3 months of summer.. lol I want to ride as much as i can, get out and do as much as i can aid in my weight loss.. and felt like theonly thing left to do was to take it into my own hands!

Over the last year i have been on injectables i would get my script from my endo, and always filled the whole thing however i would be a month in and my family doctor would see me and see the blood work and write me a scrpit for the same thing once he wrote for more.. so i essentaily right or wrong filled the scripts twice so have a small stock pile and am using it to get the max out of my summer.

I see my GP in a couple of weeks, i will ask for a copy of the last blood work to share that information for sure.

[Chicagotarsier]

Insulin can be reflected by bodyfat. I have read of 0 cases where Test had similar circumstances.

Could you clarify what testosterone you are using? Cyponate? Propinate? Ethanate? From your totals the only way I can see this happening is if you are injecting Propinate. Prop has a 4 day half cycle if I remember correctly and if you tested on day 6 the readings would make sense.

Testosterone is testosterone minus the halflife. If you were injecting 200 Cyp once a week I would wager 800 minimum if test was done 2-3 days after pin. If you pin 400 cyp a week you best be seeing some pretty awesome gains in the gym.

Thyroid problems are a bitch but usually fall into hypo or hyper when it comes to metobalism. Treatment for hyper that I know of first hand is radiation Iodine treatment. It kills off part of the Thyroid and reduces production of T3. Hypo is usually pills that either raise T4 to stimulate the Thyroid to do its job to make T3 or straight T3 if the Thyroid itself is faulty. In the three cases I know personally with hypo they take T3 and T4. From my reading and research T3 would never shut down the Thyroid so it would not be started back up within one to two weeks. Mucho information on that out there to read. Austinite has a really good (exceptional) article on T3 and its use.

http://forums.steroid.com/supplement...ml#post6851416

Good Luck figuring out your problem. Keep researching and reading and you will get the answer.

[DiverMike]

I'm going to jump on the "me too" band wagon. 400mg/week is TOO much for a TRT dose.

and "POOR ABSORBTION"? what does that mean? test just doesn't evaporate and go unused. you inject it, and your body will use it. I understand everybody utilizes test differently.+
+

for example, I'm at 80mg/week, test c, and that puts me in the mid 700's. But you are taking 5x as much, with only half the results?

either your test is suspect, results are wrong, or something else is going on.

if all else fails, get a new doc. you should NOT be taking 400mg/test/week for the rest of your life.

how is your RBC?
Blood pressure?


something aint right mate!

Sorry not sure what RBC is..

Again sorry guys totally ignorant to it all, i have spent the last 18 months doing what the docs say..

All i can say is my last blood work last month said my test level was 290, They tested Bio Available and Free test i know i had to pay extra for one of them and was told both improved slightly but are both way too low.. my Thyroids are up but he said its something we will just watch for now, cholesterol is high and on medications for it.. My blood pressure was 130/78 i am a diabetic so its usually around there on medications for it. and another level was really low dont know the name he said it was the chemical the brain releases to tell the testicles to produce testosterone and he said that its expected as my levels where low and thats why we are on TRT.. and he checks my prostate every visit.

The Endo actually wanted to take me OFF the injectables and put me on to "Axiron" apparently a new form of application he said would possibly absorbed better.. but i faught him on it as i have three little girls under 5 and was not going back to a messy application that could effect them.. and they are always all over me!

All i know is he said that due to my Diabietes, the medications im on for my numerous issues and the 50+% body fat is what is causing my body not to use the test correctly.

Something else i left out, last week a body building friend did not believe that i was having the sexual side effects i have lack of erection and basicly told me on 400mg a week i should be playing with it like a 12 year old boy, So he asked me to try something, and had me take three tablets one a day for three days he called it Supper Doil or something like that, said it was some sort of ultra test booster or something.. and i did for three days last week funny on day three i felt a little more upbeat.. but nothing to get super excited about.

[DiverMike]

Insulin can be reflected by bodyfat. I have read of 0 cases where Test had similar circumstances.

Could you clarify what testosterone you are using? Cyponate? Propinate? Ethanate? From your totals the only way I can see this happening is if you are injecting Propinate. Prop has a 4 day half cycle if I remember correctly and if you tested on day 6 the readings would make sense.

Chicago... The current script is brand name "Delatestryl" 200mg/ml Testosteron Enanthate Injections it says on the bottom 5ml vile by a company called Valeant.. on the box it says "in sesame Oil"

[Chicagotarsier]

Although this particular ester is active for a much longer duration, most athletes prefer to inject it on a weekly basis in order to keep blood levels more uniform. The usual dosage would be in the range of 250mg-750mg (200mg-800mg U.S. strength). This level is quite sufficient, and should provide the user a rapid gain of strength and body weight. Above this level estrogenic side effects will no doubt become much more pronounced, outweighing any new muscle that is possibly gained.

14 day half life 3 week it is cleared from your system totally. If you pin 200 a week of this stuff you are looking at "400" for a single pin which is high for TRT. The Thyroid issue is starting to stick out like a sore thumb. Can you post your blood work so one of the advanced members can look at it? The thyroid panels would be most helpful.

Chicago... The current script is brand name "Delatestryl" 200mg/ml Testosteron Enanthate Injections it says on the bottom 5ml vile by a company called Valeant.. on the box it says "in sesame Oil"

[DiverMike]

Although this particular ester is active for a much longer duration, most athletes prefer to inject it on a weekly basis in order to keep blood levels more uniform. The usual dosage would be in the range of 250mg-750mg (200mg-800mg U.S. strength). This level is quite sufficient, and should provide the user a rapid gain of strength and body weight. Above this level estrogenic side effects will no doubt become much more pronounced, outweighing any new muscle that is possibly gained.

14 day half life 3 week it is cleared from your system totally. If you pin 200 a week of this stuff you are looking at "400" for a single pin which is high for TRT. The Thyroid issue is starting to stick out like a sore thumb. Can you post your blood work so one of the advanced members can look at it? The thyroid panels would be most helpful.

I am going to be asking my GP for a copy of the blood work.. they charge me $25 per copy so i have not asked for it in the past... but with recent issues and feelings my Endo is not doing enough i have resorted to close friends and this group for more guidance.

I see him in two weeks and will be getting a copy of it..

[DiverMike]

I may have been going about this all wrong, I jsut feel after 18 months 140 pounds lost, and nothing but frustrations with body changes, mood swings in and out of hospitals for a range of issues. i feel that i have come to a brick wall with my GP and Endo.. both feeling the dose im on is enough, both telling me its a LONG Road to recovery and change.. and that losing more weight, being less active and my low carb diet will drop the weight raise the T and get my life back on track! I just felt i have way too much invested to start over with a new doc let alone to get one, when my GP refered me to a Endo and Urologist it took over 4 months to get into see them.

[DiverMike]

Just to make it clear...

I am not looking to get BIG... I am not looking to Bulk up and life a house.. I don't want to be able to Run fast, Jump farther and swing from trees...

I am a 35 year old Morbid obese father of three little girls under 5.. I have a loving wife who has been soo patient with me and my lack of sexual desires, my massive mood swings, the fact that I will be sitting watching tv and will ball my eyes out for no god dam reason.. or break into a massive hot flash for no reason.. Some days i can not even get out of bed.. i have spent days in bed not eatting just angry at the world..

in the last 6 months i have "maxed" out the recommended dose of TRT.. and then some, i drag my ass out of bed daily to and force myself with the support of my wife to eat right, to do something active be it she drags me out for a walk, i jump on my bike for a ride or hit the gym.. i prick myself 6-8 times a day with insulin, twice a week with test, and once a week with B12. For weeks i have been lurking and reading all i can in hopes to find some way to boost my levels, get my body into motion build some muscle use it as a furnace to burn more fat.. as fast as i can to reduce my body fat, reduce the stupid amounts of insulin i inject daily , drop the medications and let my body work the way its ment to work or work that way with as little impact from medications as possible.

[Chicagotarsier]

I hear ya. I am over 42% still but the testosterone is a god send. When I was on the Androil it was a roller coaster of emotion due to the absorption rate changes as to how your intestines absorb the medicine. Certain foods are better to eat with it and so on. Finally got to the pin and worked out what worked best for me and it is a different world. You have three rabbits to chase:

TRT Dose
Thyroid
Diet

Curious on what meds the doctor has you on for diabetis. Metformin (Glucophage)? Which insulins are you using? Novolog and Lantus?

Do yourself a favor and check out these articles:

http://forums.steroid.com/supplement...-products.html

That talks about a way to increase your fat burn with natural substances.

[DiverMike]

Diabeties meds are..

Metformin 1000mg breakfast, 500mg lunch 1000mg dinner

Novorapid injection with meals and corrections after meals if needed typically 5-10 units per meal

Lantus taken in two doses 80 units at night and 80 units in the morning

Victoza 1.8mg taken each night at bed time.

That and I am on a low carb 1800 Calorie a day diet.

[hawk14dl]

Estrogen can make you drag ass, as well as the sexual side effects.

Throw the superdrol away. You shouldn't be using it.

Blood tests shouldn't cost more to receive a copy. They are yours. You already paid for them (or your insurance did).

[hawk14dl]

Also, with trt, more Is NOT better.
If you are prescribed 200 mg a week, take that. 100mg 2x a week. .5cc twice, Monday Thursday or something like that.
Do that at least 4 weeks. Get blood work done.
You want total t, free t, sensitive estradiol, and a cbc panel.

The dangers of running a high dose at your size are real. Estrogen related side effects are just a drop in the bucket. High blood pressure and increase rbc (red blood cells) are what you need to worry about.

As uneducated as your dr is about trt (and I agree, it sounds like he doesn't know) you know even less. But you're here now, and we do know. Listen to us, we can help

[Black]

Estrogen can make you drag ass, as well as the sexual side effects.

Throw the superdrol away. You shouldn't be using it.

Blood tests shouldn't cost more to receive a copy. They are yours. You already paid for them (or your insurance did).

This^

You haven't mentioned estrogen once. Does he not test for that? I would request a prolactin and cortisol test as well.

Obviously, don't just take something "a bodybuilding friend" hands you. That and doubling your dose (and estrogen) are some of the causes of your mood swings.

We can't take a pill for everything. Make sure your diet is REALLY where it needs to be. Don't go too low below TDEE and have too low of a caloric deficit. You may not be eating enough.

[oldnsedentary]

do something active be it she drags me out for a walk, i jump on my bike for a ride or hit the gym.

Does your gym have an elliptical machine?

If so, hit it every day. Increase the resistance or the time spent on the machine every day by a little bit. Do this in addition to your walk, bike, and hitting the gym.

[APIs]

While there's a lot of questions remaining, I dont see why everyone is automatically scoffing at the dosing he mentions. There are 'some' patients that require larger-than-normal amounts of Test Cyp to keep their levels in a therapeutic range. I've seen it mentioned here & my Doc mentioned he has one patient who goes through 2 x 10 ml vials a month just to remain in the 800's with normal free test levels. Just saying...

[hawk14dl]

I honestly don't see that as possible. 20ml a month, we'll assume 4 weeks a month. . 5 ml a week? That's 1000 mg. That's a huge cycle, not even a normal cycle.
There would have to be some underlying issue.

And nobody is really scoffing. . But he doubled his dose, without dr permission, without blood work, I can go on and on about what he's doing wrong. Nobody should be condoning this as therapeutic treatment. It's throwing hormones around blindly and it's not safe.

[DiverMike]

Hawk, I made a new post as a few people ask for them, But i will post it here too its the results from my March 2014 blood work.. Again i don't know what any of it means.


March 2014 Blood Work
| | |
Test | Reading | Range |
TOTAL TESTOSTERONE | 255 | 270 - 1070 NG/DL |
FREE TESTOSTERONE | 48 | 50 - 210 PG/ML |
HBA1C | 0.058 | .040 - .06 |
UREA | 5.6 | 2.5 - 8.0 MMOL/L |
CREATININE | 80 | 62 - 115 UMOL/L |
*Egfr | 97 | > or = 90 ml/min/1.73 m2 |
SODIUM | 140 | 135 - 147 MMOL/L |
POTASSIUM | 4.5 | 3.5 - 5.5 MMOL/L |
URATE | 332 | 230 - 480 |
CHOLESTEROL | 4.44 | |
HDL CHOLESTEROL | 0.77 | |
CHOLESTEROL/HDL RATIO | 5.8 | |
TRIGLYCERIDES | 5.2 | |
ASPARTATE AST | 45 | 7-37 U/L |
ASPARTATE ALT | 71 | 12-49 U/L |
HEMOGLOBIN | 150 | 135 - 175 G/L |
HEMATOCRIT | 0.44 | .40 - 0.50 L/L |
WHITE BLOOD CELL | 14.1 | 4.0 - 11.0 |
RED BLOOD CELL | 4.84 | 4.5 - 6.0 |
MCV | 90.1 | 80 - 100 |
MCH | 31 | 27.5 - 33 |
RDW | 13.3 | 11.5 - 14.5 |
PATELET COUNT | 254 | 150 - 400 |
URINE | | |
PROTEIN | NEG | |
GLUCOSE | NEG | |
KETONE | NEG | |
BLOOD | NEG | |
NITRITE | NEG | |
LEUCOCYTE ESTERASE | NEG | |

[hawk14dl]

Everything looks okay there except for free test. But here's an important question, what day was your injection, and what day was the blood drawn?

[hawk14dl]

Also you really need to be testing estradiol, especially at your size you will be more susceptible to estrogen related sides. The hardest part of trt is managing estrogen

[DiverMike]

I am not asking for people to help me cheat the system, not looking for justification for what i have done or what i will do.. what i have done has been out of frustration, out of desperation..

Much of what i have done or do right now is out of ignorance from what i have been reading online, Hearing from local people who claim to be in the know..

Be it right or wrong, 200mg is my dose, read about people doing 800-1000 for enhancements.. so yes i tried to double my dose to see if it made any difference. up until now every 3 months its been a double in dose from the docs. till now

[DiverMike]

I am not asking for people to help me cheat the system, not looking for justification for what i have done or what i will do.. what i have done has been out of frustration, out of desperation..

Much of what i have done or do right now is out of ignorance from what i have been reading online, Hearing from local people who claim to be in the know..

Be it right or wrong, 200mg is my dose, read about people doing 800-1000 for enhancements.. so yes i tried to double my dose to see if it made any difference. up until now every 3 months its been a double in dose from the docs. till now

[DiverMike]

Everything looks okay there except for free test. But here's an important question, what day was your injection, and what day was the blood drawn?

My injection was 10am monday and blood was drawn 8:30am wednsday morning after fasting for the blood.

[APIs]

And nobody is really scoffing. . But he doubled his dose, without dr permission, without blood work, I can go on and on about what he's doing wrong. Nobody should be condoning this as therapeutic treatment. It's throwing hormones around blindly and it's not safe.

I didnt realize he doubled it "without" medical guidance...never a good idea lols...

[Times Roman]

the only other thought I have

due to extremely high bf%, it may be possible that your test is converting to estradiol almost right away. if this theory is accurate, you would expect your test levels to increase as your bf% decreases, while maintaining the same dose.

and btw, RBC = Red Blood Cell (count)

there is a correlation between the amount of test you inject, and increases to your RBC. which is why it takes so long to optimize your trt doses. the theory is you want maximum test levels, and minimum sides, like RBC and the rest. For me, if I were to jump from 80mg/week to 100mg/week, my RBC climbs above the upper limits of the "normal" range, not a good thing.

[DiverMike]

Times,

that has i guess been happening.. I have been on the 200mg a week now for 4 months and dropped 55 pounds and my levels have gone up.. on the same dose and diet.. not a lot but went up from i believe it was 260s up to the 290s.

[DiverMike]

So i do have Arimidex, ultimately this would reduce my estrogene which i know i now have a issue with since last week i had a bout of sore and itchy breast and at the recommendation of a friend i did three days of Tamox and it went away.. it was said that i would need something like Arimidex and i know i need more blood work.. my GP is on holidays for 2 weeks and i will follow up with him as soon as i can..

Untill then should i still take the 1mg tablet daily for the next week or so to reduce the issues?

[Times Roman]

Times,

that has i guess been happening.. I have been on the 200mg a week now for 4 months and dropped 55 pounds and my levels have gone up.. on the same dose and diet.. not a lot but went up from i believe it was 260s up to the 290s.

then I suggest staying at the 200mg/week. let your test levels rise on their own. eventually, you may want to drop your test levels below the 200mg/week when you get below 20% bf.

with testosterone and trt, "less is more"

[Black]

So i do have Arimidex, ultimately this would reduce my estrogene which i know i now have a issue with since last week i had a bout of sore and itchy breast and at the recommendation of a friend i did three days of Tamox and it went away.. it was said that i would need something like Arimidex and i know i need more blood work.. my GP is on holidays for 2 weeks and i will follow up with him as soon as i can..

Untill then should i still take the 1mg tablet daily for the next week or so to reduce the issues?

1mg daily is a pretty big dose of Arimidex. I don't recommend going that high right off the bat nor without estrogen levels tested.

Normally I would say address the estrogen issue with your doctor, but I'm sure they have no clue like many others. Therefore, I would recommend take .25mg EOD. Start there and adjust as needed keeping in mind the symptoms of low estrogen (you'll know something is off). I'd do this until your doctor is back and you can get proper bloodwork.

[VegasBody]

DiverMike
Keep up the good work
What U R going through is not easy at the beginning it's easier to lose the fat it gets harder and harder
Yes U need to keep going with your training yes I know it's hard to be on 1500 calories and do your training and live your life and everything that comes with it
Just keep Your head up do your cardio do Your weight training U will be fine
An average man takes 1cc which is usually 200mg of test a week and that brings them to 500-800 range try to split injection to two 100mg a week
Only blood work will tell the difference.if it's not enough U need to go up U want to be in the 700-800 range about
GOOD LUCK AND KEEP UP THE HARD TRAINING

[VegasBody]

1mg daily is a pretty big dose of Arimidex. I don't recommend going that high right off the bat nor without estrogen levels tested.

Normally I would say address the estrogen issue with your doctor, but I'm sure they have no clue like many others. Therefore, I would recommend take .25mg EOD. Start there and adjust as needed keeping in mind the symptoms of low estrogen (you'll know something is off). I'd do this until your doctor is back and you can get proper bloodwork.

Yes .25 of Arimidex should be good
BLOODWORK AFTER COUPLE OF WEEKS THAT WILL TELL U IF ITS WORKING

[KJ63]

YES! I agree the 1mg is a lot, It has terrible side effects as I am experiencing now. .25 is starting to get better,, jmo

[DiverMike]

What sort of side effects.. again i need to maybe stop being the "Trustme" guy and doing what other are suggesting..

[BigPimpin76]

Diabeties meds are.. Metformin 1000mg breakfast, 500mg lunch 1000mg dinner Novorapid injection with meals and corrections after meals if needed typically 5-10 units per meal Lantus taken in two doses 80 units at night and 80 units in the morning Victoza 1.8mg taken each night at bed time. That and I am on a low carb 1800 Calorie a day diet.

Dont mean to highjackbut what is novarapid for?

Sent from my iPad using Forum

[DiverMike]

The Novorapid is the fast acting insulin i take 30 mins before i eat, and my dose would depend on the carb content of my meal.