Hcg

[Score]

Going to get BW done for the first time since starting TRT.

While I'm there I feel I need to mention HCG to my doc, I'm guessing he's never heard of it. What should I site as my main reason for wanting it?

Honestly I've read a lot if talk about it and I'm still confused. Due to sides am I better off without it if I don't need it? Or does being on TRT mean I should be on HCG?

[Black]

Going to get BW done for the first time since starting TRT.

While I'm there I feel I need to mention HCG to my doc, I'm guessing he's never heard of it. What should I site as my main reason for wanting it?

Honestly I've read a lot if talk about it and I'm still confused. Due to sides am I better off without it if I don't need it? Or does being on TRT mean I should be on HCG?

The testicles produce other hormones besides testosterone . Personally, I think if you are on TRT, that should include HCG as well. How to convince your doctor, I don't know.

[kelkel]

Print this out. If your doc doesn't agree with arguable one of the top docs in the country then consider another doc! It should be all you need.

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG ) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate , the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels , commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

[Score]

Print this out. If your doc doesn't agree with arguable one of the top docs in the country then consider another doc! It should be all you need. AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL By John Crisler, DO In my paper "My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men", published in A4M's 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share: Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG--a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog--will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones. So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let's delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly "cycle" compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time--without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)--approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp. But there's another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed. It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition. In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required). I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark. Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn't concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline. While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do--even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more "traditional" TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Awesome!! Thanks!

[Score]

Well I called today to talk to my doctor and couldn't get past the nurse initially. I began to explain that I wanted to add HC G to my TRT therapy, and while explaining the atrophy of the testicles and all that, she interrupted me and said for years they have many patients on TRT with nothing else and that she would have to talk to the doctor but she didn't think it was necessary.

[Black]

Well I called today to talk to my doctor and couldn't get past the nurse initially. I began to explain that I wanted to add HC G to my TRT therapy, and while explaining the atrophy of the testicles and all that, she interrupted me and said for years they have many patients on TRT with nothing else and that she would have to talk to the doctor but she didn't think it was necessary.

Ugh. Wouldn't it be amazing if people on this planet were more open minded? Especially the so-called professionals?

Stuff like this makes it an easy decision to continue self-medicating my TRT. I loathe getting back out there again and looking for help. Either that or I pay out the a$$ at a clinic for the same thing.

[kelkel]

Well I called today to talk to my doctor and couldn't get past the nurse initially. I began to explain that I wanted to add HC G to my TRT therapy, and while explaining the atrophy of the testicles and all that, she interrupted me and said for years they have many patients on TRT with nothing else and that she would have to talk to the doctor but she didn't think it was necessary.

SHE does not have testicals. It's also a shame they have treated all their past patients improperly......

[2Sox]

SHE does not have testicals. It's also a shame they have treated all their past patients improperly......

I was thinking the same thing.

Anyway, many of us here have run into the same thing with our doctors - myself included.

I get my hCG overseas, no script, and it's very cheap - like $23/5000iu vial. It's legit and it works.

[The_Crawfish]

kel, Crisler recommends "my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot". That's aimed at folks who inject once per week, what about those who inject twice per week??

[VegasBody]

Good question
Bump

[kelkel]

kel, Crisler recommends "my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot". That's aimed at folks who inject once per week, what about those who inject twice per week??

Twice per week mitigates the need to rely on hcg as a "bump" to test levels as they fade at the end of the week. That said, you could really inject any two days you like if you go twice per week as there's really no large dip in T levels to worry about it. You can even do it in the same syringe as your test shot to minimize weekly injections. He (Crisler) is even a fan of low dose daily hcg shots, but that's too many shots for me.

[Score]

Nurse just called again and relayed that my Doc stated HCG is not advised with TRT and that maybe I don't want to be on TRT? Then reiterated that none of their other patients are on HCG with TRT.

I asked if I could have access to the doctors research and she stated I could come speak with him so I have an appt. this Tuesday morning.

Truthfully I have no clue if I need it or not but want to have every advantage in fighting Father Time so we will see.

Any other info anyone can arm me with would he greatly appreciated

[kelkel]

Your doc should read some of the writings by Crisler, Shippen, Morgantaler and Vergel, etc., as he's not up to current treatment standards.
Pick up "Testosterone , A Man's Guide" by Nelson Vergel and read it. Then give it to your doc.

[Brett N]

Nurse just called again and relayed that my Doc stated HCG is not advised with TRT and that maybe I don't want to be on TRT? Then reiterated that none of their other patients are on HCG with TRT.

I asked if I could have access to the doctors research and she stated I could come speak with him so I have an appt. this Tuesday morning.

Truthfully I have no clue if I need it or not but want to have every advantage in fighting Father Time so we will see.

Any other info anyone can arm me with would he greatly appreciated

Your doctor is going to recommend what he feels is right. This does not mean he is trying to harm you, it just means he is uninformed. The hard part is trying to convince him to take input from a patient who did not spend all that time and money going to school. It's not an easy thing to do.

If you cannot convince him, I would recommend going to see a TRT doctor like the site sponsor.

I mixed my HCG improperly the last time I refilled, making it 1/5 of the actual prescribed. After a few months, I have nuts that have shrunk and feel like I was kicked in the balls about a half hour ago. Just a dull ache. Not nice. Will this happen to you? Maybe yes, maybe no. But, there is no need for it to even be a possibility if your doctor was to follow modern procedures.

If all else fails and you can't afford to go to LowT instead, I would search for a canadian pharmacy or one overseas to find your own HCG and follow the advice given by most everyone who is on TRT here.

[2Sox]

^^^Good advice from Brett so in the meantime just get your own hCG from overseas as we have advised. I just sent you a PM regarding this. Don't knock your head against a brick wall.

My urologist and my TRT doctor BOTH refuse to write for it and I just get mine overseas and do what I need to do. I'd recommend you do the same. Sometime down the line you can tell your doctor if you like. My doctors still don't know and it really doesn't matter. You gotta do what you gotta do - as the saying goes.

[dhickey]

Much more stable t levels, so whenever. I suppose you could it the day before each t injection.

[Score]

What is an IU?

When buying HCG oversees do you also need to buy the part needing mixed in or does it come together ?

[2Sox]

What is an IU?

When buying HCG oversees do you also need to buy the part needing mixed in or does it come together ?

You just buy the bacteriostatic H2O or bacteriostatic NaCl-H20. Discard the water that comes with the hCG powder because it is not multi-use.

[The_Crawfish]

2Sox, could you email me the overseas info (not enough posts for pm)? I'm going to call the Dr ofc Monday and see if he'll script it...if not I'd like a back-up plan.

[Score]

Holy shit they thought I was asking for HGH!!

They will now look more into it and let me know, scary!

[Brett N]

Wow, nice to have that cleared up. Would of been a goldmin if they actually prescribed HGH to you though.

Hope this helps change how they prescribe for their patients. Good thing you brought it to their attention.

[sfgiantsfan55]

Nurse just called again and relayed that my Doc stated HCG is not advised with TRT and that maybe I don't want to be on TRT? Then reiterated that none of their other patients are on HCG with TRT.

I asked if I could have access to the doctors research and she stated I could come speak with him so I have an appt. this Tuesday morning.

Truthfully I have no clue if I need it or not but want to have every advantage in fighting Father Time so we will see.

Any other info anyone can arm me with would he greatly appreciated

er, why would you want to go to a physician that is clearly 100% clueless about HRT? find another one asap. My dog knows u get atrophy with HRT treatment..but, i reckon my dog is smarter than your MD.

[Brett N]

^^^ Someone hasn't read entire thread.

[Score]

Well the doc called and said while his research showed some people take HCG with their regiment he would not prescribe it to me. No testicular atrophy has been noted from his patients this far.

He did agree to me taking injections weekly versus bi-weekly which I guess show some latitude. I have already switched that on my own to twice weekly.

Now I'm trying to decide wether to buy overseas or give it time and see if I notice any shrinkage.

Are there any other pros for HCG I should consider, if atrophy does not occur?

[Brett N]

HCG is not that expensive, cant mention costs on here but I bought from a canadian pharmacy online and 50 weeks (25,000ius) worth was really reasonable. Even Benjamin Franklin could have purchased it if he was on TRT.

I have suffered with atrophy for 2 weeks which isn't that long (and that is just from taking a bad mixed dose on my part) but I would have paid 2x over to make it end instantly. Shrunken nuts and a dull ache like you were kicked in the sack a half hour ago for the whole 2 weeks is crappy to say the least. It has affected my workouts and my cardio.

HCG also helps to give a mini spike in test which can help eliminate the lows in your test numbers giving you a more even emotional state. I think this would make it easier to manage sides.

[Score]

HCG is not that expensive, cant mention costs on here but I bought from a canadian pharmacy online and 50 weeks (25,000ius) worth was really reasonable. Even Benjamin Franklin could have purchased it if he was on TRT. I have suffered with atrophy for 2 weeks which isn't that long (and that is just from taking a bad mixed dose on my part) but I would have paid 2x over to make it end instantly. Shrunken nuts and a dull ache like you were kicked in the sack a half hour ago for the whole 2 weeks is crappy to say the least. It has affected my workouts and my cardio. HCG also helps to give a mini spike in test which can help eliminate the lows in your test numbers giving you a more even emotional state. I think this would make it easier to manage sides.

If I could get it prescribed I would take it without a second thought, but when I factor in the risk of dealing with overseas (non FDA approved) product I'm having a hard time deciding. I'm 2 months in and fear I've had a small but if atrophy but no pain thus far.

[ngtmarpete]

^ Atrophy is not a question of 'if ' but 'when' will it happen. Testosterone is just one benefit of properly functioning testicles. To me, it was a no brainer in deciding to implement HCG into my TRT regimen. Don't you think that it's better to prevent then to try and repair?

[Score]

^ Atrophy is not a question of 'if ' but 'when' will it happen. Testosterone is just one benefit of properly functioning testicles. To me, it was a no brainer in deciding to implement HCG into my TRT regimen. Don't you think that it's better to prevent then to try and repair?

Yes. Does buying HCG from overseas carry the same legal ramifications (if caught) as steroids ?

[Black]

Yes. Does buying HCG from overseas carry the same legal ramifications (if caught) as steroids?

No, HCG is not a controlled substance. Steroids are a class III drug.

[nique2188]

I was thinking the same thing.

Anyway, many of us here have run into the same thing with our doctors - myself included.

I get my hCG overseas, no script, and it's very cheap - like $23/5000iu vial. It's legit and it works.

Would you mind PM'ing me the info of where to get HcG overseas?

MUCH appreciated, thank you.

[2Sox]

Would you mind PM'ing me the info of where to get HcG overseas?

MUCH appreciated, thank you.

You don't have enough posts to send or receive PMs. Sorry. Beyond my control.

[Score]

You just buy the bacteriostatic H2O or bacteriostatic NaCl-H20. Discard the water that comes with the hCG powder because it is not multi-use.

I placed an order today, very excited. I did not see the h2o product, is that something I can get from a local pharmacy?

[trikydik]

Well I called today to talk to my doctor and couldn't get past the nurse initially. I began to explain that I wanted to add HC G to my TRT therapy, and while explaining the atrophy of the testicles and all that, she interrupted me and said for years they have many patients on TRT with nothing else and that she would have to talk to the doctor but she didn't think it was necessary.

Find a new doctor. I tried 6 or 7 before I found one who would listen.

[jimmy79]

What are you guys talking about? I've been on TRT for 3+ years and I don't have any testicular atropy!

[ebstein]

What are you guys talking about? I've been on TRT for 3+ years and I don't have any testicular atropy!

no change in ejaculation volume either???

[jimmy79]

no change in ejaculation volume either???

The first year I noticed a decrease in ejaculation volume. After that it came back with full force :-)
You're body just needs to adjust I guess.

Remember TRT causes a decrease in cortisol & thyroid. So you body needs time to adjust all it's enzymes and immune system.

If you do additional steroids with your TRT, you will slow down your body to adjust. I read that lots of you guys are doing BOOSTS, etc.. (very bad in your first few years on TRT in my honest opinion)

Using hCG together with your TRT will also slow your body down to adjust because you're body is in effect going to think all the right signals(LH) are there, when in fact they are not.

[CobraMustangSVT]

...............Remember TRT causes a decrease in cortisol & thyroid. So you body needs time to adjust all it's enzymes and immune system............................

Hi,
Is this bad?

Thanks

[The_Crawfish]

FWIW, I talked with my doc a couple of weeks ago and presented him with Crisler's hcg info. He actually took the time to read it and today prescribed me 250iu's 2x/wk.
He doesn't pretend to know it all, but will take the time to listen to me and take what little advice I have to offer.

[Score]

FWIW, I talked with my doc a couple of weeks ago and presented him with Crisler's hcg info. He actually took the time to read it and today prescribed me 250iu's 2x/wk. He doesn't pretend to know it all, but will take the time to listen to me and take what little advice I have to offer.

Wow, very cool and humble doc you have! Nice work , you've probably helped all his patients.

[2Sox]

The first year I noticed a decrease in ejaculation volume. After that it came back with full force :-)
You're body just needs to adjust I guess.

This is very good news! Many don't have your good fortune.

Remember TRT causes a decrease in cortisol & thyroid. So you body needs time to adjust all it's enzymes and immune system.

I couldn't find any information to substantiate this. Can you say where you got this information? (or someone else please comment.) Your last comment here is your opinion, correct?

If you do additional steroids with your TRT, you will slow down your body to adjust. I read that lots of you guys are doing BOOSTS, etc.. (very bad in your first few years on TRT in my honest opinion)

Using hCG together with your TRT will also slow your body down to adjust because you're body is in effect going to think all the right signals(LH) are there, when in fact they are not.

Once your HPTA is shut down, it's shut down. hCG is there to partially compensate for this. There is no adjustment going to take place. Ever. That's why it is said that TRT is forever. Many men who have used steroids in their youth, without adequate knowledge - and who end up on this forum looking for answers, or as productive members providing advice and guidance - can attest to that.

Comments and questions are in bold above^^

It would be useful to make it very clear when you are stating fact and when you are expressing an opinion. We're all interested in each other's thoughts but we also count on each other here for accurate information.