Desperately need help - please give me ANY suggestions

[Kwn]

Guys, I am in DESPERATE need for help. Anyone who has ANY idea what to do, please type. Smart/dumb, whatever, just pile on. I beg for help because I am at the lands’ end.
Story began in March 2012 I lost erections and libido, quite literally overnite. Went to urologist he measured TT=147. Upon conversation with him, I decided to lose weight (40 yo, 225 lb, 5 foot 7). So I went on a low-carb diet, and after 5 weeks lost around 20 lbs. And all of the sudden my sex life came back. But three months later, I gradually lost libido again, and orgasmic sensation. I could have erection, sex, ejaculate, but no feeling. I measured again, TT=122. I decided to go with Testopel. Implanted 14 pellets in January 2013, and 5 days later got a MAJOR panic attack. I lived with periodic panic attacks for 5-6 weeks, and then they went away. I started to feel weak orgasms, by far not what it used to be. But libido did not come back. Numerous measurements showed that on Testopel I was pretty stable (which makes sense) at TT=450+/-20, and E2=38. At no point I lost erections during this treatment. At this stage I was looking for libido and intense orgasms.

So in May 2013 I signed up for HRT clinic. I figured my TT was way too low, and this was the bottom of my problems. They made comprehensive panel:

LIPID PANEL
CHOLESTEROL, TOTAL 178 125-200 mg/dL
HDL CHOLESTEROL 46 > OR = 40 mg/dL
TRIGLYCERIDES 157 H <150 mg/dL
LDL-CHOLESTEROL 101 <130 mg/dL (calc)
CHOL/HDLC RATIO 3.9 < OR = 5.0 (calc)
NON HDL CHOLESTEROL 132 mg/dL (calc)
CARDIO CRP(R) 1.6 mg/L

COMPREHENSIVE METABOLIC PANEL
GLUCOSE 91 65-99 mg/dL Fasting reference interval
ALBUMIN/GLOBULIN RATIO 2.2 1.0-2.5 (calc)
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.6 0.2-1.2 mg/dL
ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 67 40-115 U/L
AST 16 10-40 U/L
ALT 20 9-60 U/L
HEMOGLOBIN A1c 5.8 H <5.7 % of total Hgb.
VITAMIN D, 25 OH, TOTAL 25 L 30-100 ng/mL
VITAMIN D, 25 OH, D3 25 ng/mL
VITAMIN D, 25 OH, D2 <4 ng/mL
TSH 1.71 0.40-4.50 mIU/L
T4, FREE 1.2 0.8-1.8 ng/dL
T3, FREE 3.2 2.3-4.2 pg/mL
TESTOSTERONE , FREE 128.3 46.0-224.0 pg/mL
TESTOSTERONE,BIOAVAILABLE 297.2 110.0-575.0 ng/dL
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOBULIN 9 L 10-50 nmol/L
ALBUMIN,SERUM 5.1 3.6-5.1 g/dL
DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE, EZ LC/MS/MS 14 L 16-79 ng/dL
PROLACTIN 13.0 2.0-18.0 ng/mL
PSA, TOTAL 1.0 < OR = 4.0 ng/mL
E2 Sensitive = 38
Note that my SHBG is very low, which explains why I was not able to maintain decent TT levels on almost highest dose of Testopel.

In June 2013 my TT started to fall (Testopel was wearing off). I was placed by HRT doctor on 500 IU of HCG and 0.5 mg ArimidexE3D. Three weeks later I measured TT=480, E2=7. I crashed estrogen. None of my symptoms changed (I was able to even hold erections). I asked doctor to write a script for cypionate . Clearly my TT was not high, and I was thinking still this is a source of problems. So I went on E3D protocol on 7/17/2013:

day 1 = 300 IU HCG
day 2 = 50 mg cypionate IM+0.25 Arimidex
day 3 = nothing

It did raise my TT to 912 in 3 weeks, but E2 was at most 14. I went off arimidex, and in a week I was back at E2=41. So I went back on 0.25 Arimidex E3D. The latest measure a week ago gave me TT=555 and E2=11. Almost immediately upon starting cypionate I lost morning wood and started to see first signs of ED. Erections became soft and unreliable, and in September 2013 I had fully blown ED. At that point I stopped using Adex and never touched it since then.
Since then I tried different protocols of cypionate /propionate /HCG , in different doses:
- cypionate 8 mg/day
- cypionate 16 mg/2 days
- cypionate 30 mg/3 days
- propionate 2 mg/day
- propionate 5 mg/day
- propionate 8 mg/day
- HCG mono 100-150 IU/day

and many others.

on the labs my results were all over the place, TT from 110 to 1200, for the most part stayed around 500-600. E2 was consistently low, in 15-20 range, occasionally coming into 20-25 range.


Symptom-wise I am in complete shit. Shortly after starting cypionate in July 2013 I saw mild ED. I lost morning wood, and developed insomnia. Libido was and still is zero. Over the course of one month ED got progressively worse and in September 2013 became fully blown ED. But here is the horrifying part: I started to see penile atrophy in August 2013. The penis shaft got thinner, with loose skin, and veins very pronounced on the top of it. It never happened before. No matter what my levels were, testosterone , or estrogen, symptoms did not change. Finally in March 2014 I decided to go back on Testopel. Last time in 2013 I was on it, my boners were good, I had morning wood. My only problems were no libido and weak orgasms on Testopel.


So 3/17/2014 I got Testopel (12 pellets). Nine days after implant, I got strong woody, and dick went back to its good old full shape (overnight). I measured TT=850, E2=39 (sensitive). It lasted 4 days, and disappeared again. No wood, thin shaft. I measured again, and it came back as TT=680, E2=24. So I attributed loss of wood to significant drop in E2. Later measurements revealed TT=450-470, E2=18-19.

So it appears that my body cannot hold onto E2. Magical wood coming back and disappearing again puzzles me immensely.

If you guys have any comments/suggestions, they are highly appreciated. I am at the world end, as you can imagine. The wood is gone close to 1 year and I cannot bring it back, no matter what I do. The idea to go back on Testopel was to bring back my dick, because previous time on Testopel I had no dick problems. But for no apparent reason it is not working this time, even though the dose is almost identical.

My sleep is still messed up (insomnia).

Please, guys, help me out, I am at the end of the line.

[Times Roman]

that's a lot of reading, which is why maybe some are reluctant to respond.

I'm thinking abandon the pellets and do like the rest of us and get the weekly shots.

can you summarize?

[Ryanmcd]

Find a good doctor?

[Beethoven]

Find a good doctor?

Just posted the same thing on the other thread. ^^^^^^^

[Kwn]

Already did. Very knowledgeable. He is willing to prescribe virtually anything, to help the situation.

But the condition still does not budge.

SUMMARY OF CONDITION:
======================
- complete loss of libido
- loss of orgasmic sensation, which partially recovered first time on Testopel pellets (inserted January 2013)
- had reliable erections and morning wood
- in June 2013 started cypionate injections+Adex: resulted in loss of morning wood, progressively worsening ED and penile atrophy
- tried different combinations of cypionate/propionate /HCG injections, which had no impact on any symptoms
- implanted 12 Testopel pellets in March 2014. Nine days after implant had return of penile volume, morning erections. It lasted 4 days and went away.
======================

ANY INPUT FROM YOU GUYS IS NEEDED

[Bonaparte]

Your dht was low on that bloodwork. Has it come up since? If not, that could certainly be the problem.

[Kwn]

Recent bloodwork coming up in couple of days. Note that the low DHT was done a year ago, on Testopel. I was missing only libido and orgasms, my erections/morning wood were good. So low DHT is not the culprit behind my current shit, since it was not in the past.

[Beethoven]

All of your test doses measure up to anout 50 mg of test a week if my math is correct. You have to have BW done after any single change. I would say you were underdosed on one side and over dosed with the Adex. But without BW there is no way to know. I have absolutely no experience or knowledge of the pellets. If low E2 was the problem you would have been better off with the injectables and maybe up the HCG . HCG spikes my E2 up more than the test.

[Kwn]

Beethoven,

I did SHITLOAD of tests, I just did not post them, because as I was messing with my protocols, none of the changes resulted in positive outcomes. What is the point to post bloodwork then? I did bloods pretty much each week, for good part of 2013. I had like total of 25-30 blood tests, bought them through privatelabsMD.

I also did a month on Fortesta gel in February 2014. Results were awful. I started with 6 pumps, as instructions were. Measured bloods - TT=1200+, E2=54. Then I knocked down the dose to 4 pumps, TT =1080. Then I reduced to 2 pumps. None of the dose changes resulted in positive changes. Moreover, I developed neck pain. It was as if neck was stiff, painful to turn and lift head. Now that I am on TT=470 pain is gone.

I believe I do not need high levels of testosterone . Why? Because I have low SHBG. I do not know low SHBG guys who do well on high doses of test. High SHBG guys are different story - they need high TT to reach good level of free T. But it comes with high E2, and they use AI to knock it down. Low SHHBG is very different.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Low Testosterone]

Your estradiol is all over the place, up and down repeatedly. It seems as if you're in a situation where you randomly throw in and take out anastrozole, in turn perpetuating hormone imbalances. Let things normalize for awhile, if you're estradiol sits at 40-60 during this time that's fine, it's not going to kill you. Don't get caught up in the idea that estradiol must be between 20-30 and that's all that matters. No, what matters is a hormonal balance. I see plenty of guys every day with E2 in the 40-60 range who are doing great! No symptoms, no problems of any kind....why would you prescribe a man like that anastrozole? Sure, some need to be lower and in the 20-30 range but there is nothing magical about that range.

[Kwn]

Low Testosterone ,

thank you for input. I agree, at first when I started cypionate I was on the hormonal roller-coaster. So I was on and off Arimedex. One week I would measure E2 =7, and take adex out, a week later I would be at 41, and start Adex again. It was going on for about 2 months. In fact, one doctor I saw commented that these hormonal swings by themselves could have killed dick. I accept these explanations. But I discontinued Adex in September 2013 and never used again.

To give you an idea what happened here is log of bloods:



As you can see from it, judging by sensitive estradiol, I was under 20 most of the time. Could it be my culprit? Possibly.

In your estimation, how long does it take for things to normalize under steady conditions? I read somewhere that if one comes out of crashed estrogen, the longer it crashed, the longer it takes to re-establish balance of hormones and heuros. In some cases it can take months. Is this true?

I realize that 20-30 range much touted everywhere is nothing scientific, and individual cases are widely different. So I am not shooting for any specific E2, I am trying to find my own numbers.

But almost a year I am in a deep shitster. This is why I ask you guys for help and guidance/ideas.

[2Sox]

The first thing I'd recommend is to get your weight under control. IMO, you should lose another 25-30lbs - minimum. Less fat, less aromatization, lower E2. A word about E2: As Low T said numbers are individual, but I can't see ANYONE having a good quality of life on any number approaching the high or low end of the range; not to mention going above or below it. This, from my own experience.

The second thing I'd advise - as others have suggested - is to stabilize you protocol. Based on the successful starting protocols of others, you are definitely under dosing you T Cyp. Get on 100mg/week. Break up the dosing into two or more doses per week. Dose your hCG two or three times weekly. One of the most renowned and respected doctors in TRT - John Crisler - is now recommending daily low doses of each, from what I understand. Consider it. There's a reason for this.

From my own experience, I have found that Adex is one of the most powerful AIs out there - with a horrific rebound. Approach it with caution. Consider Aromasin which is gentler and more forgiving.

For what it's worth, this is my protocol: 29gauge, 1/2 inch insulin syringe, SQ

T Cyp: 16mg/day
hCG: 100iu/day
Aromasin: 12.5mg/week

I feel good because ups and downs don't exist with this protocol. No spikes in T, smaller spikes in E. Works for me. So far.

[Kwn]

2Sox,

thank you for your input. Do you know your numbers - where does your protocol keep you in terms of TT and E2? Also, I understand that you are not a low SHBG guy?

[Kwn]

Also, about the weight. It was VERY weird. When originally bad things happened to me in March 2012, I went on super-low-carb diet, and lost like 20 lbs over 4 weeks. And my sex life returned back!! My weight stabilized at ~205.

But 3 months later, I lost libido and orgasmic sensation! My hardons were still present. Oh, yeah, I also developed a severe case of PE. I would come in 15-20 seconds. No sensation. Going on pellets in January 2013 cured it after about 6-7 weeks. PE improved, and I started experience weak orgasms.

now, fast forward to December 2013. On cypionate , as you know from above, I lost erections, and so far did not recover them. But I started to lose weight for no apparent reason. Not on diet, not hitting gym hard. I was losing like 2 lbs a week. I went down to 175 with no efforts at all.

now, fast forward to March 2014. Inserted Testopel again, hoping to get at least erections back. Happened 9 days after insertion. Lasted 4 days and then went away. And I started to GAIN weight. Again, for no apparent reason. Right now I am sitting at 205 again. No change in the diet, no change in gym. I am sure most of this gain is water, but still, SOMETHING is causing it, and for the life of me I do not know what it is.

If you guys have any ANY ideas, I beg you throw them at me. Anything. Anything at all. I have more stuff to report (tests etc) but I want to hear your opinions first.

[2Sox]

2Sox,

thank you for your input. Do you know your numbers - where does your protocol keep you in terms of TT and E2? Also, I understand that you are not a low SHBG guy?

My TT is always above 1100. My free T is always in the top of the range.
SHBG was 35 on a range of 22-77 on my BW of 5/9/14

Just had bloods done last week. Waiting to see.

[Beethoven]

KWN I feel what you're going thru. I agree with 2Sox. When I started trt, it was a painstaking process to get dialed in. You have to start with a given protocol, let that run for about six weeks with no changes. Get BW and compare the numbers in relation to how you feel. If a change is to be made then one change at a time, run the new protocol minimum four weeks and re test. If you make more than one change at a time then it makes it hard to nail down. I had that problem with my Adex. It took me a good seven months or so to get dialed in. Also as 2sox pointed out, weight and nutrition can play a big role in this. When I started eating clean and dropped weight, my E2 fell in line better. Trt takes time to get you where you need to be but it has a very meticulous method to get there. In the meantime, I took the 'ole V pills to help out while getting dialed in.

[Kwn]

Beethoven

I completely understand what you are saying and agree. The only problem is - ever since starting cypionate in July 2013 I took a turn for the worse, and any changes in protocol failed to provide sustainable improvement. Literally, no matter what I do I cannot return my hardons, morning wood, libido, and sleep.

This is why I turned to you, guys, asking for help. What do I do??

[2Sox]

Bonaparte above makes a good point on DHT. It is known that DHT is the substance that has the greatest effect on libido and erections. (Too bad they don't make a purified, injectable form.) Topicals produce the greatest levels of DHT. Test Cyp, not so much. All things being equal, you might want to consider something like Androgel - if you can afford it. I liked Androgel for this reason when I was on, it but it was too damn expensive and I switched to injections.

[2Sox]

Beethoven

I completely understand what you are saying and agree. The only problem is - ever since starting cypionate in July 2013 I took a turn for the worse, and any changes in protocol failed to provide sustainable improvement. Literally, no matter what I do I cannot return my hardons, morning wood, libido, and sleep.

This is why I turned to you, guys, asking for help. What do I do??

So far, I think you've gotten some good suggestions to start from:

- Get your weight down, improve your diet, start a rigorous exercise program if you haven't already done so.

- Get you E2 under control with daily low dose injections of T and hCG .
- Consider switching to Androgel .
- Consider Aromasin for E2 control.

- Find a doctor who you can work with.

Regarding Testopel:

I had the pellets inserted and they worked well - TOO well. My libido was off the charts! To the point that I was relieved when four of the pellets were expelled. Apparently, they weren't inserted deep enough. Doctors love Testopel because they can bill for a surgical procedure. The effect wears off and the last two months I had to supplement with Androgel to keep my T levels up. Apparently, the pellets have the body produce a great deal of DHT. It's nice. The pain, black and blues, scarring, and ultimately needed topical supplementation isn't worth it. IMO, it's for lazy patients who don't want to think or bother too much. I'd guess you felt good on them because of the DHT produced.

[Kwn]

Gentlemen,

As I pointed out above, I am struggling badly with TRT. Short background:
- started TRT 01/27/2013 with 14 Testopel pellets
- original symptoms included loss of libido, loss of orgasmic sensation, premature ejaculation. No ED though
- after initial 2 months of horrible hell on pellets (panic attacks, severe insomnia, heart palpitations), all these bad sides disappeared, and premature ejaculation cured, I started to feel some orgasms. Libido did not recover.
- in July 2013 I went on cypionate shots+arimedex, and symptoms got more severe. I developed ED, which was progressing, and lost morning wood. Premature ejaculation returned. I started to see signs of penile atrophy (thinner shaft in flaccid state, pronounced veins on shaft). I developed severe anxiety, insomnia.
- last year since July 2013 I tried A LOT of protocols. I have abandoned arimidex completely, and tried combinations of propionate /cypionate/HCG , but none of the symptoms resolved.
- in March 2014 I decided to go back on Testopel, believing that at least I will start seeing erections/morning wood.
- Nine days after (3/26/2014) implant I saw (overnite) penile atrophy disappear, and morning wood came back in strong. It lasted 4 days and returned back to bad state.

Luckily, I did tests on 3/26/2014, they are below. They correspond to a "good state". Recently, 6/12/2014 I did another comprehensive battery of tests. Since my symptoms are still bad, these correspond to my current "bad" state. These 6/12/2014 tests are also below. They are laid out side by side, for comparison. Tests 6/12/2014 include more stuff than 3/26/2014.

Since I am trying to troubleshoot my shit, I am humbly asking my respected friends on forum to look at tests and tell me what you see. What can be the reason behind my baaad stuff that is going on. Caution - I have low SHBG, so the answer "your testosterone is too low" is likely wrong. I tried to go on high levels of testosterone (600+), and this just aggravated symptoms to be worse.

So I ask - look at the numbers guys and tell me what can be the reason I am in shitster? Here goes:

[Bonaparte]

Prolactin is high, and dopamine is low. You want the inverse for sexual functioning.
You vitamin D and pregnenolone are low too.

A dopamine agonist (cabergoline) would take care of the first two, and you can buy the last two OTC.
Do those and switch to a gel in order to get more DHT (or supplement with 25mg of proviron , as it is very similar to DHT).

[BallSak]

Sounds to me like you felt better with higher T and higher E2. Seems like you need to stick with a protocol longer as well. Kinda sounds like you are constantly changing things. You sound quite stressed out and I don't think you are going to get anything balanced under so much stress.

As was said above, low dht and high prolactin are not good for sexual function. Your cortisol is also kinda low and your rt3 went way up. You taking any thyroid meds?

Also, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that neurotransmitters cannot be tested with any accuracy.

[Kwn]

Prolactin is high, and dopamine is low. You want the inverse for sexual functioning.
You vitamin D and pregnenolone are low too.

A dopamine agonist (cabergoline) would take care of the first two, and you can buy the last two OTC.
Do those and switch to a gel in order to get more DHT (or supplement with 25mg of proviron, as it is very similar to DHT).

Bonaparte, I agree with your assessment. I did try caber few months ago for 3 weeks. It made me dizzy and fatigued, with no positive outcomes.

I also agree on vit D. I did take it for some time, then stopped. I believe it is time to to restart again.

Now, on pregnenolone, I am confused. Test results say "<10" or "<20". To me it sounds like levels were undetectably low, so test could not come up with a number. And yet, according to Labcorp's range, anything <150 is ok. So, technically, if a person has zero pregnenolone, he is normal per Labcorp.

Can anyone explain wtf is that?

Also, what are my options regarding to pregnenolone?

[Kwn]

Sounds to me like you felt better with higher T and higher E2. Seems like you need to stick with a protocol longer as well. Kinda sounds like you are constantly changing things. You sound quite stressed out and I don't think you are going to get anything balanced under so much stress.

As was said above, low dht and high prolactin are not good for sexual function. Your cortisol is also kinda low and your rt3 went way up. You taking any thyroid meds?

Also, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that neurotransmitters cannot be tested with any accuracy.

I did try taking T3 for about a month, but it did not result in symptoms change so I stopped.

I agree, neurotransmitters in brain cannot be tested through blood. But this is about the only thing that can be done. And it shows that my adrenaline is elevated. Also, it seems to show low morning cortisol. Elevated adrenaline can explain a lot of symptoms: ED, penile shrinking, loss of libido, insomnia. What can I do to normalize my adrenaline function?

Any suggestions/ideas will be greatly appreciated.

[Bonaparte]

Epinephrine only has a 2 minute half life, so that just spiked a bit because you were being jabbed with a needle. Pretty useless thing to test for, IMO.

[BallSak]

Now, on pregnenolone, I am confused. Test results say "<10" or "<20". To me it sounds like levels were undetectably low, so test could not come up with a number. And yet, according to Labcorp's range, anything <150 is ok. So, technically, if a person has zero pregnenolone, he is normal per Labcorp.

Can anyone explain wtf is that?

Also, what are my options regarding to pregnenolone?

Serum levels of pregnenolone are not relevant, if I remember right. You need to see how much is in the cells. I believe you do this via Spectracell. It's been a while since I researched this so you'll wanna double check it.

[Ryanmcd]

Again find a good doctor, I was not being a smart ass. A good doctor will not have you posting on forums looking for help he will know what to do and not have you guessing with random people on a forum, this is a good place to look for info but it's just idea. Find a top doc like Crisler, LowT, Shippen, etc and be solved in a few months. Or keep dicking around for months years. Seems I keep posting this over and over.


3 years on TRT 0 issues feeling great, took 3 months to get dialed in, 2 changes so far

[Kwn]

Again find a good doctor, I was not being a smart ass. A good doctor will not have you posting on forums looking for help he will know what to do and not have you guessing with random people on a forum, this is a good place to look for info but it's just idea. Find a top doc like Crisler, LowT, Shippen, etc and be solved in a few months. Or keep dicking around for months years. Seems I keep posting this over and over.


3 years on TRT 0 issues feeling great, took 3 months to get dialed in, 2 changes so far

Ryan,

Trust me, I am working with one of the best doctors right now. But it is not going anywhere at the moment. This is why I post on forums. I am looking for ideas what to try next. It is not a question of money, I am not saving on health. The issue is - whatever I try fails to deliver results.

[Ryanmcd]

Ryan,

Trust me, I am working with one of the best doctors right now. But it is not going anywhere at the moment. This is why I post on forums. I am looking for ideas what to try next. It is not a question of money, I am not saving on health. The issue is - whatever I try fails to deliver results.

If he was the best you would not be looking for answers on this forum. So it's 1 of 2 things

1. He's not one of the best and is not sure how to deal with you.
2. He gives you advice but you don't trust it or are too ADD and have to have results right NOW and get on forums to see way a change is not working next day.


You have to understand that each 1 thing you change takes time to play out, when I started it was test @ 6 weeks then bloodwork, then HCG , then a few other tweeks but after 3 months I was dialed in and after 3 years nothing has changed but my dose because of some weight loss.

You have to give it time to work and not expect things to change right away, people tend to WAY over think this stuff or expect results too fast, it's almost as bad as people at the gym after taking their 1st shot and going to they gym 3 hours later and saying "Man I know its working my bench is higher then it was last week"

[Chicagotarsier]

First, TrT for ED does not cure in a month. It can take up to 2-years. Changing your stuff all over the place helps 0.

My personal experience on ED has been this:

.....anything but injected test is worthless.
.....bf%
.....Use improves function.

at 3 months total on TrT I started Cialis. Worked good enough to have a short sexual encounter but about it. Then I noticed as my total muscle mass increased the strength and longevity of erection would increase. Each time I had intercourse the longevity increased also. I went from no erection possible to 20 minutes minimum in 3 months.

Your cock is a muscle. As with all other muscles the more you use it the stronger it gets. Put yourself on a TrT dose and let it percolate while using cialis to allow for "exercise". It was the cure for me..maybe you.

[Kwn]

First, TrT for ED does not cure in a month. It can take up to 2-years. Changing your stuff all over the place helps 0.

My personal experience on ED has been this:

.....anything but injected test is worthless.
.....bf%
.....Use improves function.

at 3 months total on TrT I started Cialis. Worked good enough to have a short sexual encounter but about it. Then I noticed as my total muscle mass increased the strength and longevity of erection would increase. Each time I had intercourse the longevity increased also. I went from no erection possible to 20 minutes minimum in 3 months.

Your cock is a muscle. As with all other muscles the more you use it the stronger it gets. Put yourself on a TrT dose and let it percolate while using cialis to allow for "exercise". It was the cure for me..maybe you.

Chicagotarsier,

What do you mean by "anything but injected test is worthless"? What was your experience? Could you be more specific?

[2Sox]

Chicagotarsier,

What do you mean by "anything but injected test is worthless"? What was your experience? Could you be more specific?

I would also like to know where you get your information. Opinions and personal experience are very valuable on forums such as this one. But blanket statements without data to back them up have no value at all. And they can also be misleading especially to the less informed looking for answers.

When I started TRT on the patch, my ED improved within days. If you poll others here, I'm fairly certain you'd get similar replies.

[Low Testosterone]

Injectable testosterone has the highest success rate, where as transdermals have a 20% failure rate. Next time you see an AndroGel commercial, they will verbally mention it or it will be in the small print at the bottom of the screen. Of course, that leaves an 80% success rate and on the surface that doesn't sound too bad, but it sounds much better than it is. Of those that it works well for, many find that they adapt or what's often referred to as "Transdermal Fatigue." They simply don't absorb it well anymore - there's nothing wrong with the testosterone itself, it's just not absorbing. So they end up adding larger and larger doses and many doctors stand there scratching their head. This cannot happen with injectable testosterone. And then there are some men that will find transdermals work well indefinitely.

Pellets, convenience is the appeal, no doubt. The downside, primary - you have very little control. The number of pellets may not be enough or could be too much. With transdermals and injectables you can easily make adjustments when and if needed.

[2Sox]

Injectable testosterone has the highest success rate, where as transdermals have a 20% failure rate. Next time you see an AndroGel commercial, they will verbally mention it or it will be in the small print at the bottom of the screen. Of course, that leaves an 80% success rate and on the surface that doesn't sound too bad, but it sounds much better than it is. Of those that it works well for, many find that they adapt or what's often referred to as "Transdermal Fatigue." They simply don't absorb it well anymore - there's nothing wrong with the testosterone itself, it's just not absorbing. So they end up adding larger and larger doses and many doctors stand there scratching their head. This cannot happen with injectable testosterone. And then there are some men that will find transdermals work well indefinitely.

Pellets, convenience is the appeal, no doubt. The downside, primary - you have very little control. The number of pellets may not be enough or could be too much. With transdermals and injectables you can easily make adjustments when and if needed.

Thank you for this reply. IMO, it says it all. I had the same experience with Androgel. I started with two pumps but had to increase to 3 and 4 pumps daily. The copay sent me to T Cyp. For all I know I would have had to go to shots eventually anyway because of the the absorption problems you describe.

[Ryanmcd]

The 2 biggest things I see here are and Doc Crisler told me this years ago and I see posts list this everyday.

1. If you change something it can take WEEKS / MONTHS to show up, as in if you start on test don't think in 2 days if your ED is not fixed you need something else, also if you have high E2 after 2-3 weeks who cares, I did too but after 3 years I have yet to take any AI and my E2 is from 13- to 28 depending on diet and how much test I take / day of test etc and I FEEL great.

2. Don't chase numbers, after I did a test he would ask how I felt before I even knew what the numbers where, Hell I felt better with a 800 TT then I did at 1200, base on how you feel not just a number, if you want to run a cycle cool but at least learn TRT and how you should feel first.


P.s. I still think Crisler is a ass lol but he does know what he's talking about so who cares.

[Low Testosterone]

The 2 biggest things I see here are and Doc Crisler told me this years ago and I see posts list this everyday.

1. If you change something it can take WEEKS / MONTHS to show up, as in if you start on test don't think in 2 days if your ED is not fixed you need something else, also if you have high E2 after 2-3 weeks who cares, I did too but after 3 years I have yet to take any AI and my E2 is from 13- to 28 depending on diet and how much test I take / day of test etc and I FEEL great.

2. Don't chase numbers, after I did a test he would ask how I felt before I even knew what the numbers where, Hell I felt better with a 800 TT then I did at 1200, base on how you feel not just a number, if you want to run a cycle cool but at least learn TRT and how you should feel first.


P.s. I still think Crisler is a ass lol but he does know what he's talking about so who cares.

Excellent points!
Something else to keep in mind, our body goes through cycles, weekly, monthly and even yearly. Things do not remain perfectly constant at all times. Have you ever noticed that at certain times you're far hungrier and at other times far less hungry despite absolutely nothing in your life changing at either time? Or in some cases your libido is stronger than normal or slightly weaker than normal, again despite nothing in your life changing at either time. This is normal but when on TRT people tend to expect normal to go out the window. It's important to remember when on TRT you're still a human being....crazy isn't it? LOL!

[Beethoven]

The 2 biggest things I see here are and Doc Crisler told me this years ago and I see posts list this everyday.

1. If you change something it can take WEEKS / MONTHS to show up, as in if you start on test don't think in 2 days if your ED is not fixed you need something else, also if you have high E2 after 2-3 weeks who cares, I did too but after 3 years I have yet to take any AI and my E2 is from 13- to 28 depending on diet and how much test I take / day of test etc and I FEEL great.

2. Don't chase numbers, after I did a test he would ask how I felt before I even knew what the numbers where, Hell I felt better with a 800 TT then I did at 1200, base on how you feel not just a number, if you want to run a cycle cool but at least learn TRT and how you should feel first.


P.s. I still think Crisler is a ass lol but he does know what he's talking about so who cares.

I have been on trt for about eight months, been dialed in for about two. That said I'm still seeing improvements. It will not happen overnight. I think Chicago mentioned it was his experience that he thinks injectables are worthless. I strongly disagree. Judging by my experience you can see why people are flocking to injectables for trt and other things. You can't expect everything overnight. And I've also felt what low t alluded to which is your body goes thru ups and downs naturally. You have to give it time.

[CobraMustangSVT]

Injectable testosterone has the highest success rate, where as transdermals have a 20% failure rate. Next time you see an AndroGel commercial, they will verbally mention it or it will be in the small print at the bottom of the screen. Of course, that leaves an 80% success rate and on the surface that doesn't sound too bad, but it sounds much better than it is. Of those that it works well for, many find that they adapt or what's often referred to as "Transdermal Fatigue." They simply don't absorb it well anymore - there's nothing wrong with the testosterone itself, it's just not absorbing. So they end up adding larger and larger doses and many doctors stand there scratching their head. This cannot happen with injectable testosterone. And then there are some men that will find transdermals work well indefinitely.

Pellets, convenience is the appeal, no doubt. The downside, primary - you have very little control. The number of pellets may not be enough or could be too much. With transdermals and injectables you can easily make adjustments when and if needed.

Hi,
Do you know what causes the transdermal fatigue? I was reading that it's thyroid issues that causes thickening of the skin, which leads to poor absorption.

[CobraMustangSVT]

Thank you for this reply. IMO, it says it all. I had the same experience with Androgel. I started with two pumps but had to increase to 3 and 4 pumps daily. The copay sent me to T Cyp. For all I know I would have had to go to shots eventually anyway because of the the absorption problems you describe.

Hi,
Where did the 3 pumps land you numbers-wise? How were the numbers on 4 pumps? Right now, 2 pumps puts me at 489 so I went to 3 pumps. I get tested next week to see where 3 pumps land me.

[Low Testosterone]

Hi,
Do you know what causes the transdermal fatigue? I was reading that it's thyroid issues that causes thickening of the skin, which leads to poor absorption.

If that were the case, then more men would have thyroid issues. Most men, the majority, will find transdermals lose at least some level of their effectiveness overtime, how much and how soon is what varies.