TRT advice needed. High Estrogen and Anastrozole

[spacemon]

I am reaching out here to hopefully get some advice and opinions on my current situation. Here are my details. I am 40 years old and 6ft tall 215 lbs and I would estimate my body fat at around 20%. I am not a body builder but I am muscular as I have always lifted weights and worked out. Definitely need to lose some body fat! I have never done a cycle. I joined this forum along with a handful of others a while ago to learn and see what others are doing because I started noticing symptoms of low T specifically absolutely no sex drive. I ended up at a Low T clinic earlier this year and have been on T injections ever since. The doc prescribed me 200mg Test C weekly and 1 mg anastrozole the day after my injection. On top of that for the first 2 months I was injecting 250iu's of HCG twice weekly Sub Q. So for the 2 months I was taking HCG along with everything else all seemed well. Libido was better, mood definitely picked up, and no nipple issues. I ended up stopping the HCG due to cost ($120 a month) and because I really am not keen on injecting 3 times a week. A month after I stopped the HCG I started to notice itchy and tingling in my nipples and pec area. I took matters in my own hands and started taking another 1 mg anastrozole (2mg total) until I could get into the doc and have labs pulled to see where my levels where sitting. After I had my labs pulled it was found that my E was higher and elevated. Doc upped my Anastrozole to 3mg the day after my injections. Everything else seems ok for me, my mood is still way better, cardio is absolutely way better, sex drive is good but my nipples/pecs are always a bit tingly.

My concern is the amount of Anastrozole the doc is prescribing me and still having nipple issues. From the info I have read online it seems this is a very strong drug and it needs to be taken carefully. Most people seem to be taking .25 mg EOD not 3mg once a week. Is my doc crazy here? Any advice? Is he on the right track? I asked him why I would take such a big dose once a week rather than spreading it out and he said because my T level will peak 24 hours after injecting and this was the way to keep my E levels from spiking. I have been on this protocol for 3 weeks now and my nips are still bothering me.

First labs before any Test injections 3/11/14

Estrodial = 31 pg/ml
total T = 191 ng/dl
Free T = 3.5 pg/ml

Second labs Test C, HCG and 1mg Anastrozole 4/15/14 (one week after last injection)

Estrodial = 39
Total T = 599
Free T = 16.3

Third labs Test C and 2mg Anastrozole 6/10/14 (one week after last injection)

Estrodial = 39
Total T = 641
Free T = 14.4
Hematocrit = 49.7 going to donate blood tomorrow 7/8/14

Fourth labs Test C and 3mg Anastrozole 7/14/14 (one week after last injection) (one week after blood donation)

Estrodial = 40 (0-56 pg/mL)
Total T = 728 (241-827 range ng/dL)
Free T = 27 (5-40 pg/mL)
Hematocrit 49.6 (39-50%)

Hopefully I posted enough info to get some solid advice and opinions. let me know what you all think. I sure could use some help.

[forrest_and_trees]

Surprisingly, it sounds like your Dr. knows more than most and while I can *sort* of understand his reasoning, 3mgs does sound a bit high to be taken all at once. While you're T and E levels do spike after pinning, they don't just "drop" off… it's a gradual decline, so the conversion of T to E continues days after you inject.

I personally take anastrozole (arimidex) daily; 1mg the day after I pin with either the Test or HCG [both will elevate your E levels] and .5mg other days, with an added .5mg or two as needed on days I'm feeling a little extra *moody* or my nipples are puffy. When my E is in check, my nipples are like pointy dimes, when it's high, they're puffy 50cent pieces; that's usually the first sign. The more you do HRT, the more obvious the signs become. Everyone is different and you need to be in tune with your body, which it sounds like you are.

As for the tingling and itching of the nipples, as I understand it, that's the beginning signs of gynecomastia [man boobs] and you definitely don't want that! Best to knock it back before it becomes a problem. They may also become extra sensitive and things like simply rubbing on your your shirt will bother them. That's a definite sign your E is too high.

For the record, you may get itching *all over*, that's from the Test and will continue until all your dormant body hair follicles become active. Everyone's different, but for me it was nearly 3 years. The first two years were the worst.

Your E numbers sound a little high, personally, I'd say below 30 or even 20 would be more ideal. I'd try the 1mg a day on the two days following your Test injection, then .5 on the next two days. That would still equal 3mg a week, but spread out. Also, you may want to try dividing your 200mg in to two 100mg shots every 3.5 days to even out your T levels. Many here, myself included, do it that way. I have been for about 3 years now and it's been good. It's a bit of a pain but worth it considering the alternatives. HRT is for life, so might as well get used to it.

Also, you'd be best to continue the HCG injections, otherwise your boys will eventually turn to raisins, not to mention, they become sore too. Read the sticky post on HCG at the top of this forum… It's a must.

[spacemon]

Thanks for that detailed response. I really appreciate the time and effort! I should have mentioned that yes I have noticed some itching kinda all over and man is it annoying. Mainly on my upper body like my sides and back of my arms. Kinda strange. As for dividing the T dose up into two 100mg shots I tried that for a few weeks but I really don't like injecting that much. One reason is because it just seems damaging to the tissue to be injecting that much over the long haul. I wouldn't be against continuing the HCG if it helped. I am not worried about raisin nuts really. I am happily married have a couple kids and am getting snipped later this year. But the cost of $120 a month just for HCG just can't happen. My insurance pays for everything but that. I will give the anastrozole schedule you mentioned some thought after my next bloods. I am going in to have blood drawn in a couple weeks. Figure I will give my doc the benefit of the doubt and see where my E levels are sitting with his scheduled dose.

[forrest_and_trees]

Glad to be of help… "Rasins" aside, like I mentioned, your boys will get sore after a while. The other positive effects of HCG that I experience is improved mood and libido as well erection strength and flaccid size. So that's something to consider. You could try doing them less frequent, maybe once ever other week. Also look on line for HCG sources, it's usually a lot cheaper than what you're paying.

As for the injections, most of us here inject in our thighs and alternate between shots. For me, it's left leg on Wed nights and right leg on Sun morn. This gives them plenty of time to heal up and after 4 years I have not noticed any scarring. Needle size matters too. I'd started with 18g on recommendation, because it's easier to draw the Test from the vial, but that damn thing is basketball inflater needle huge! I've since switched to 25g and all is better. Much easier to inject and I don't' feel a thing. It takes longer to draw from the vial, but that's no big deal, injection is fine.

Best of luck with your situation. Sounds like you're on top of things.

[spacemon]

I draw with an 18 and inject with a 25g 1" needle. I started out in my thighs and then started using my butt and even tried my delt once. I prefer the glute but the thigh is easiest. I have hit a nerve a few times though and that's always uncomfortable.

Not sure if this is out of line but can you recommend an online retailer? If that's not a good question to ask I apologize. Also here is a noob question. The HCG I saw mentioned in a video on this site is in glass ampules. How does that work as far as storing it goes once you open the ampule up? Do you transfer it to a vial?

[Metalject]

Just a random observation, I've yet to ever hear of a steroid user complain of sore balls yet tons of TRT guys do. And most steroid users, bodybuilders/gym rats don't use HCG. Anyway, just an observation.

[forrest_and_trees]

HCG usually comes in powder form, some times in ampules but mostly in vials. Either way, you mix it with bactirostatic water, sometimes called bac-water, in a separate vial. You have to buy the mixing vials and water separate from the HCG. DO NOT use the water that comes *in* the HCG box. You mix the HCG and water, based on the strength you want, and store it in the refrigerator. HCG does go bad easily, so I usually pre fill all my syringes to prevent too much handling and temp cycling from taking it out of the frig over and over. I use 32g, 5/16th length, 1ml syringes. 5000ius of HCG + 5ml of bac-water and fill 20 syringes at a time, to .250ml.

As for why "steroid" users don't complain about soreness, is because they A) cycle, giving their natural production time to recover and B) are not suffering from hypogonadism, like those of us on TRT… Which is why we're on TRT in the first place; our bodies no longer produce what we need and since we *continually* take T, any natural production left shuts down without HCG, causing soreness and turning your nuts into raisins over time, among other things.

[Ryanmcd]

Don't chase a number most people @ 40 are fine, sounds like you see a number then you have the symptoms. I was at 45 and felt as good at 15 as my doc asks me how I feel before I see the bloodwork I bet you would do the same, chasing numbers is a never ending game.

Have you tried just copper and zinc? That works for a lot of people and you don't have to mess with a AI.

[Beethoven]

200 mg is kind of on the high side. But that said you should definitely pin twice a week. You could even pin your test subq as many here do including myself. I don't know what the ranges of your BW are but your E2 is not that high. Your Adex dose is somewhat high and I'm surprised you haven't crashed your E2.

Metallica, my boys didn't start aching right away, it took about three months. Most cycles don't last that long. But some guys just won't feel it while others do. I had cycled many years ago and never had a problem.

[spacemon]

Ryanmcd,

No I am not chasing the numbers but I understand what you are saying and I am sure its quite common for people to do that. I am more concerned about how my nipples and pecs feel. I actually never even compared all my bloodwork numbers and looked at ranges until I started this thread. I will look into copper and zinc. Got a dosage recommendation?

[spacemon]

Beethoven,

Now Sub Q twice a week might work actually. But 100mg in a slin pin? Will that even work? What about drawing? I need to find out more info on how to go about doing this.

THANK YOU all for trying to help me!

[kelkel]

Start with getting the correct estrogen test. It should be an E2 Sensitive Assay and if you use labcorp I can provide the codes. Standard estradiol is geared for women not men. Men fall at the bottom of the bell curve where the test is not sensitive enough to give accurate readings. In my experience most sensitive assay's tend to run lower than standard estradiol.

You will probably crash your E at that dosage. Yes, taking your AI a day after injections times the peak but what you're doing is overkill imho. Adex has about a 50 hr half life so keep that in mind. Test doesn't just aromatize for a couple days and stop.

Remember all your testing is one week after injection. Therefore you numbers are different earlier in the week. I'd suggest testing on day 3 after injection to see "where you live" when closer to your peak. And as stated above, splitting injections is prudent both for more stable serum levels and for estrogen control which makes it a win-win for you. You will also probably be able to reduce your dosage and that in and of itself will help mitigate E problems also.

Personally I would not suggest 100mgs SQ.

And what is your range for Free T?

[spacemon]

kelkel,

That's seems like some solid info in that post thanks for taking the time to respond. The 50 hr half life is definitely food for thought. 100mg sub q does seem like a lot. In your opinion what is the biggest dose if I do go that route? I am assuming a slin pin right?

I posted my free T levels in my first post is that what you mean by range?

[spacemon]

Also what is the difference with the E2 Sensitive Essay you mentioned and the labs I got? Remember I am pretty new at this and just learning haha. Sorry for all the questions.

[kelkel]

kelkel,

That's seems like some solid info in that post thanks for taking the time to respond. The 50 hr half life is definitely food for thought. 100mg sub q does seem like a lot. In your opinion what is the biggest dose if I do go that route? I am assuming a slin pin right?

I posted my free T levels in my first post is that what you mean by range?

Arguably around 60mgs or so. Guys tend to get lumps pushing too much SQ.
Free T, just like total T has a range that the lab uses. For example, Labcorp's Total Test Serum range is 348-1197. Free T range 7.2 - 24.0.

Also what is the difference with the E2 Sensitive Essay you mentioned and the labs I got? Remember I am pretty new at this and just learning haha. Sorry for all the questions.

One is geared to women. The other men. The standard estradiol test is not sensitive enough to read mens E2 level properly. This can result in the improper (think "over") dosing of AI's.

[spacemon]

OK my lab is Pac Lab and the free T range is 5.0 - 40.0

I will ask my doc about the E2 essay. I need to make an appt for bloods again so I will be going in soon.

[spacemon]

Anybody got a good link to info on the copper and zinc protocol? I am already taking ZMA every night so I'm curious how this will work. Thanks for any clarification on the issue.

[kelkel]

I didn't look for a link but the norm is around 200 DIM, 50 Zinc and 4 Copper. You can buy Zinc already combined with copper.

[spacemon]

Thanks. I gotta go to Super Supplements later this week I will look for this and give it a try.

[spacemon]

Well I made an appointment today to have my BW done on Monday. I inject on Mondays and take 3mg anastrozole on Tuesdays and have been doing this for four weeks. I donated blood on Tuesday. I am really curious to see where my levels are. I will talk to the doc about the E2 sensitive test. I hope its not crazy expensive!

After reading everyone's advice I think I will try injecting twice weekly again. 100mg on Monday and 100mg on Thursdays and 1mg anastrozole the day after injections. I know its different than doctors orders but I don't wanna take any more AI than I have to. If I preload my syringe for Thursday on Monday is that ok? That will make bi weekly injections a bit more convenient.

[spacemon]

So I updated my first post with new labs for an easier comparison. I donated blood and my Hematocrit only went down .1%. Is this normal? I increased my Anastrozole from 2mg to 3mg and my E went UP one point! My Free T went from 14.4 to 27 and my totat T went from 641 to 728.

I dont know whats going on and why my E went up. I increased my AI to combat some itchy nips and it helped but my T and E both went up. I am not having any more nipple and pecs itching but my joints ache a bit and my libido seems to have gone down a bit as well.

I told my clinic to run the E2 sensitive assay but they didn't. I haven't had a chance to discuss this with them or my doc yet so any advice you guys have please help. I am splitting up my Test dosage. I injected 100mg today and will do the other 100mg on Thursday.

[kelkel]

I will talk to the doc about the E2 sensitive test. I hope its not crazy expensive!

$219 through Labcorp. Far more expensive than standard estradiol but worth it.

So I updated my first post with new labs for an easier comparison. I donated blood and my Hematocrit only went down .1%. Is this normal? I increased my Anastrozole from 2mg to 3mg and my E went UP one point! My Free T went from 14.4 to 27 and my totat T went from 641 to 728.

I dont know whats going on and why my E went up. I increased my AI to combat some itchy nips and it helped but my T and E both went up. I am not having any more nipple and pecs itching but my joints ache a bit and my libido seems to have gone down a bit as well.

I told my clinic to run the E2 sensitive assay but they didn't. I haven't had a chance to discuss this with them or my doc yet so any advice you guys have please help. I am splitting up my Test dosage. I injected 100mg today and will do the other 100mg on Thursday.

I believe the normal drop is 2-3 pts for hema. Itchy nips are not really an indicator of gyno or E problem. Advice re the sensitive test is in post #15. You need to settle in to a routine and be consistent, then test some basics after 4 weeks or so. If you keep throwing curve balls at your body you'll never know where your numbers actually fall.

[spacemon]

Thank you for the response. My hematocrit didn't even drop half a point. I don't know how all this works but this makes no sense to me.

The more I read on this forum its becoming apparent that itchy nips tend to go away after time. Your last post backs that up a bit. Maybe some paranoia on my part but definitely a lot of it is just me not knowing about this stuff... but I'm learning. I have made a few changes since I started TRT a few months ago. The first was dropping HCG, and the second was changing my AI dose (twice), my T dose has never changed at 200mg weekly. I have had four blood tests trying to dial this in.
kelkel, in your opinion do you think I am making to many changes to soon? From my BW numbers what would you do?

I hope that doesn't sound rude I am just seeking some knowledge

[kelkel]

Your goal should be to have the best possible numbers with the lowest amount of meds (including Test.)
Can't remember why you dropped HCG. Not a good idea IMHO.
Pick a protocol, once or twice per week and stick to it. I'd go twice per week in effort to mitigate adex usage.
Give the protocol a set time frame (say 4 weeks) then retest. Adjust if necessary.

To your question, yes to many changes. Before I give a further opinion post your numbers again, this time with ranges please.

[spacemon]

The end of my first post has all my tests listed with dates and the ranges are on my last entry. Let me know if ya need more info. THANKS!

[spacemon]

Just bought and read Testosterone A Mans Guide. Great info and should be required reading!

[kelkel]

The end of my first post has all my tests listed with dates and the ranges are on my last entry. Let me know if ya need more info. THANKS!

Estrodial = 40 (0-56 pg/mL)
Total T = 728 (241-827 range ng/dL)
Free T = 27 (5-40 pg/mL)
Hematocrit 49.6 (39-50%)

Numbers are actually nice. Being a BB-er I always prefer FT to be maxed but that's me. It's about balance and how YOU feel. You're not a number. If you feel good leave it be and retest 4 weeks after you settle in on a protocol. Remember standard estradiol normally reads higher than a sensitive panel, imho.

[spacemon]

Good to hear and thanks once again. Setting my mind at ease!

[ringsman]

I'm on trt 200mg a week. Shots spread out 100mg Sunday and wed. My estrogen level was at150 . I have arimadex on hand dosed at 1mg pills. I take 1 pill the day After injections. I'm now thinking its too little. Anybody have any thoughts? Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread.

[2Sox]

I agree with Kel above; dropping hCG is not a good idea at all. hCG is the substance that makes a man feel complete. It's not just to prevent shrinking stones and scrotum - which in itself is enough of a reason. I'd strongly suggest you reconsider your decision.

I also agree with Beethoven; 200mg T/week is an exceedingly high dose to begin a TRT protocol with. It's always wise to start low and see how it goes. I'd suggest you give your dose a good deal of thought. As has been mentioned, lower doses do better with keeping your E2 lower.

There is no reason you cannot inject more often. You can even inject 100mg SQ if you use an insulin needle and hit two or three sites with the same syringe. I do it this way every day, albeit with a lower dose. Inject, withdraw three times. No pain, no bumps.

There are many ways to approach this.

[kelkel]

I'm on trt 200mg a week. Shots spread out 100mg Sunday and wed. My estrogen level was at150 . I have arimadex on hand dosed at 1mg pills. I take 1 pill the day After injections. I'm now thinking its too little. Anybody have any thoughts? Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread.

How long have you been dosing your adex this way? You are NOT taking too little. The dosage spacemon is taking is highly unusual and he's trying to figure things out. It does not take much to drop it down and if you continue at that dosage odds are you will crash your E. Remember, an average adex dosage for a 500mg per week test cycle is only .25mg every other day. Do the math on that.

If you've been running 2mg per week for a while you need to get your E2 tested with a Sensitive Assay asap and titrate accordingly.

[spacemon]

I'm on trt 200mg a week. Shots spread out 100mg Sunday and wed. My estrogen level was at150 . I have arimadex on hand dosed at 1mg pills. I take 1 pill the day After injections. I'm now thinking its too little. Anybody have any thoughts? Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread.

Your estrogen was at 150? what was the range of the test? And don't worry about a hijack I think that is on topic

And yea, I am really trying to figure things out right now so don't follow my lead.

[spacemon]

I agree with Kel above; dropping hCG is not a good idea at all. hCG is the substance that makes a man feel complete. It's not just to prevent shrinking stones and scrotum - which in itself is enough of a reason. I'd strongly suggest you reconsider your decision.

I also agree with Beethoven; 200mg T/week is an exceedingly high dose to begin a TRT protocol with. It's always wise to start low and see how it goes. I'd suggest you give your dose a good deal of thought. As has been mentioned, lower doses do better with keeping your E2 lower.

There is no reason you cannot inject more often. You can even inject 100mg SQ if you use an insulin needle and hit two or three sites with the same syringe. I do it this way every day, albeit with a lower dose. Inject, withdraw three times. No pain, no bumps.

There are many ways to approach this.

I dropped HCG do to the cost. My clinic was charging me $120 for a monthly vial. WAY to much. If you want to point me in a better and more affordable direction that would be fantastic!

200mg might be to much to start out on but I have been on this dose since March and I feel great. I am splitting up my dose to 100mg twice a week to help with my E (started yesterday) and am going to take kelkel's advice and stop making changes now. I will get my blood checked again in like 5-6 weeks. I have also decided to stop the 3mg AI a week! I just don't like taking that much. I will take 1mg the day after I inject and adjust if I develop a lump. I never had any lumps but the tingling in my chest freaked me out and I started this thread. I will make sure I get that sensitive E2 assay next time as well. I feel like I have a solid approach now.

[kelkel]

Update THIS thread when you get your BW spacemon.

[spacemon]

Oh yea will do.

[spacemon]

I should also add that I am shedding some fat right now with a goal of under 15%. I am sure the 20%-25% is not helping my protocol at all. Stopped drinking IPA for now as well. I love IPA....

[ringsman]

The doc told me to inject 400mg a week split in two days. The first two weeks I did just that. Remaining two weeks I only injected 200mg once a week on one day. When I went to get my blood results My estrogen went up from 15 to 150. My test went up from 140 700. But my doc told me that my test was over 1500. I tested on the 7th day of my 200mg injection so my testosterone was not at is peak when I tested my levels. I already have pubertal gyno and didn't want it to grow more so I started taking adex one day after my shot at 1mg. I guess Im gonna split it in half. As of now im injecting 200mg split Sunday and wed. thanks guys. I felt that this topic is righ on spot with mines and just trying to find out use an AI. my doc said to use 1mg everyday but I know its too much. Thanks for replying.

[spacemon]

Can anybody confirm some legit brands of HCG? Is hucog really rat piss? Lol

[2Sox]

Can anybody confirm some legit brands of HCG? Is hucog really rat piss? Lol

I've used it. It's fine.

[spacemon]

So I just ordered some 5000 iu bottles of Corion HCG. My balls are sore and I am not digging it to much. I inject 100mg of Test C every 4 days. I am planning on injecting 250iu of HCG every 4 days as well. Would the day after my T shot be best?