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  1. #1
    jch3131's Avatar
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    8 week BW for Subq TRT Not Happy

    This is my 8 week BW update. I will post the 4 week blood work and this 8 week blood work to compare.

    4 week blood work 7/16/2014

    20 mg test cyp ED subq
    100iu HCG ED
    .5 mg Adex EW

    RBC 5.83 (4.14-5.80) x10E6/uL
    Hemoglobin 18.3 (12.6-17.7) g/dL
    Hematocrit 54.3 (37.5-51.0) %
    TSH 1.430 (0.450-4.500) uIU/mL
    Thyroxine T4 7.4 (4.5-12.0) ug/dL
    T3 uptake 32 (24-39) %
    Free Thyroxine Index 2.4 (1.2-4.9)
    Total Testosterone 546 (348-1197) ng/dL
    Free Testosterone 16.60 (5.00-21.00) ng/dL
    % FT 3.04 (1.50-4.20) %
    Estradiol Sensitive 17 (3-70) pg/mL

    The doctor told me to donate blood and also cut my Test dose in half to 10 mg ED subq. I donated double red blood cell (420ML total blood). I also cut out the adex completely but that lead to some nipple pain so I went on .5 mg EOW. I have been feeling tired, no strength, ED, Low libido, just all around horrible.

    8 week blood test 8/15/2014

    10 mg ED test cyp subq
    100iu ED HCG
    .5 mg adex EOW

    RBC 5.35 (4.14-5.80) x10E6/uL
    Hemoglobin 16.9 (12.6-17.7) g/dL
    Hematocrit 49.4 (37.5-51.0) %
    TSH 1.720 (0.450-4.500) uIU/mL
    Thyroxine T4 7.6 (4.5-12.0) ug/dL
    T3 uptake 33 (24-39) %
    Free Thyroxine Index 2.5 (1.2-4.9)
    Total Testosterone 318 (348-1197) ng/dL
    Free Testosterone 9.54 (5.00-21.00) ng/dL
    % FT 3.00 (1.50-4.20) %
    Estradiol Sensitive 18 (3-70) pg/mL
    DHT 22 (30-85) ng/dL
    DHEA sulfate 217.2 (138.5-475.2) ug/dL
    Prolactin 7.0 (4.0-15.2) ng/mL

    It goes without saying that I am not happy. I have yet to hear back from the doctor on what he wants me to do. I know that Subq takes a lot longer to build up but was considering switching to IM injections every day or every 3 days. Maybe i'm one of the unlucky ones that subq does not work for. Of course I still need to play with my estradiol to get in marked in the 20's. He also is putting me on Tamoxifen to try and dry up the small gyno lumps. Comments and suggestions are welcomed.

  2. #2
    Lifted1's Avatar
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    dont know why he cut your dosage in half after your july bw...imo you could have used a 10~20% bump actually. sounds like your doc isnt up to the task of properly treating a trt patient.

  3. #3
    liquidtrader is offline New Member
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    The amount you are taking is extremely low. Just enough to shut down your natural production and not enough of exogenous Test. 10mgs a day/70mgs a week is not going to do much. It can be SubQ or IM, it's still low.

    You'd be better off with 150mgs a week and do it 50mgs every 3rd day.

    That 10mgs a day is terrible. I don't understand how your levels were in the 500's with 20mgs a day and decided to lower it? When 500 is not even that great.

    Increase it and go every other day or every 3rd day. No need to do the ED with Cyp.

    Keep us posted bro

  4. #4
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    Yeah Here's my opinion

    You were still low. Should not have lowered your dose. Absolutely not.

    Daily injections:there are a couple of problems with daily injections. . Biggest problem is waste. Unless you load the syringe with hcg first, you're eating a lot of test every week. I think up to .1ml every injection depending on the pin.

    Also, you should have never started trt with an AI. That's what your first round of blood work is for.

    The only thing your dr did right was recommend the blood donation.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawk14dl View Post
    Yeah Here's my opinion

    You were still low. Should not have lowered your dose. Absolutely not.

    Daily injections:there are a couple of problems with daily injections. . Biggest problem is waste. Unless you load the syringe with hcg first, you're eating a lot of test every week. I think up to .1ml every injection depending on the pin.

    Also, you should have never started trt with an AI. That's what your first round of blood work is for.

    The only thing your dr did right was recommend the blood donation.
    I didnt agree with him lowering my dose either but I followed his direction. He did it bc of my high Hemo/RBC levels but I still dont understand the logic. Hawk I read that you use Subq as well, do you think prefer Sunq over IM now that you switched? I'm trying to decide if I should just go to IM E3D. Also, I don't quite follow when you said its a waste unless you load the syringe with HCG first. I just take 2 injections every morning 1 of HCG and 1 of the test.

  6. #6
    The_Crawfish is offline Associate Member
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    I made the switch from IM to subq and won't go back...
    You have no proof that subq is the problem, it's obviously the drop in your protocol. He (doc) should've at least kept you at the same dosage and rechecked hematocrit after you donated.
    You can easily load hcg and test in one pin, just draw the hcg first.

  7. #7
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    what hawk was saying is that unless you load hcg in the same syringe first to push all of the test out during your injection, you will be losing a little bit of test in each syringe, every injection, that you wont benefit from. technically you would/could come up short before your due for a refill and be sol.

  8. #8
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    Never should have lowered it. Curious as to where are you pinning? I started pinning on my upper thighs and it's working great. Won't ever go back to IM except on cycle.

  9. #9
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    I noticed that pinning the thighs was more effective than the belly.

    The belly is a good place to learn how to pin, but for me, the thighs are better for treatment.

  10. #10
    testytim is offline Associate Member
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    My protocol is close to yours i do 30mgs e3ds..Just got b/w back last week results were on day before injection. I do sub q as well. 707 TEST And 10% low on the high scale of free T. Just shows everyone is different.... I do no blocker or hcg ..My E2 stays in the low 30s.

    IMO you need 1 more blood draw. I am going through this as we speak. i Kept MY RBCS high for to long like 3 years.. now i have a iron overload issue i have to deal with..IMO i believe ppl let their numbers stay to high. You need to get your numbers back where you started pre TRT. Not just a high marker on your b/w.
    Last edited by testytim; 08-16-2014 at 07:35 PM.

  11. #11
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    I made the switch to sub q and very happy with the switch. My body responds well to it. Others don't.

    You seem to take to it well. In my opinion, 4 weeks isn't enough time to get your levels steady. 6 weeks is the standard.

    You would do just fine pinning twice a week. I do Monday/Thursday. There's no real need in precision here. In fact, sometimes I do an occasional IM in the delt of I feel like just doing one pin. I did that on my last shot, .350ml of test and 350iu hcg in one shot. Can't do that if you sub q but you can im.

    Lowering your dose isn't an effective method of losing your blood counts. Drink plenty of water, donate blood every couple of months, you won't have anything to worry about

  12. #12
    jch3131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted1 View Post
    what hawk was saying is that unless you load hcg in the same syringe first to push all of the test out during your injection, you will be losing a little bit of test in each syringe, every injection, that you wont benefit from. technically you would/could come up short before your due for a refill and be sol.
    I see what you are saying now, thanks Lifted. I use 30g insulin needles to shoot with so I dont think I lose too much but it is something I will try. I know when I was going IM a long time ago with 25g I would come up short alot.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppwc1985 View Post
    Never should have lowered it. Curious as to where are you pinning? I started pinning on my upper thighs and it's working great. Won't ever go back to IM except on cycle.
    I still have some stubborn love handles that provide a good area to pin. Never heard of one area being better than another in regards to absorption.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawk14dl View Post
    I made the switch to sub q and very happy with the switch. My body responds well to it. Others don't.

    You seem to take to it well. In my opinion, 4 weeks isn't enough time to get your levels steady. 6 weeks is the standard.

    You would do just fine pinning twice a week. I do Monday/Thursday. There's no real need in precision here. In fact, sometimes I do an occasional IM in the delt of I feel like just doing one pin. I did that on my last shot, .350ml of test and 350iu hcg in one shot. Can't do that if you sub q but you can im.

    Lowering your dose isn't an effective method of losing your blood counts. Drink plenty of water, donate blood every couple of months, you won't have anything to worry about
    I was happy with my 4 week results to be honest bc I knew it was a slow process. Plus I saw your post of labs and it clearly shows the slow steady increase in levels.

    I think I will go to a MWF dosage schedule and do a HCG shot in between and see how that goes for me. I probably wont hear from my dr until monday. He mentioned that I could have polycythemia and thats the reason for my high blood levels. My legs always itch like crazy after a hot shower so he may be right. I wish he would just get me on a phlebotomy schedule to lower my levels.

  15. #15
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    Just get hooked up with your local donation center. Have them put you on a schedule. They will call/text/email you when your time is coming up. Plus if they're anything like mine, they'll give tickets to the zoo, movies, t shirts, restaurant gift cards. . They really need the donations and it will help you as well

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jch3131 View Post
    I see what you are saying now, thanks Lifted. I use 30g insulin needles to shoot with so I dont think I lose too much but it is something I will try. I know when I was going IM a long time ago with 25g I would come up short alot.
    no problem brotha!

    i actually did my t injection last night, checked to see how much isnt being injected from the syringe and was surprised! in an exel 1ml syringe with a 27 gauge pin i lost .05ml after pushing the plunger all the way down as hard as i could. x2 for my week is puting me at only 80mgs instead of 100mgs since im missing out on roughly .1ml between the two injections.

    dont know if it absorbs through the skin in oil form, but i shot the remaining .05 on my thigh and rubbed it in lol

  17. #17
    ppwc1985's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jch3131
    I still have some stubborn love handles that provide a good area to pin. Never heard of one area being better than another in regards to absorption.
    I can't tell you the reason behind it but numbers don't lie. I get better absorbing in the lower body than I did I the stomach area.

  18. #18
    csst is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted1 View Post
    no problem brotha!

    i actually did my t injection last night, checked to see how much isnt being injected from the syringe and was surprised! in an exel 1ml syringe with a 27 gauge pin i lost .05ml after pushing the plunger all the way down as hard as i could. x2 for my week is puting me at only 80mgs instead of 100mgs since im missing out on roughly .1ml between the two injections.
    You aren't actually losing out on what you inject because there is extra space in the syringe. As long as you fill it to the proper marking you'll get the right amount. The left over amount does of course add up but the bottle of test normally actually includes a bit extra to account for that.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by csst View Post
    You aren't actually losing out on what you inject because there is extra space in the syringe. As long as you fill it to the proper marking you'll get the right amount. The left over amount does of course add up but the bottle of test normally actually includes a bit extra to account for that.
    thats good to know! i was thinking "shit @ 80mgs my numbers are gonna be the same as where i started". its still seems like a lot of waste left behind in the syringe tho. i noticed my 30g slin doesnt leave anything behind.

  20. #20
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    Right, I meant by doing daily injections you're wasting more test. Simply because there will be some left.

    You aren't missing on the dosage, you're just wasting more.

  21. #21
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    The BD Ultra-Fine II is a "No Dead Space" syringe.

    One could argue that there would be some left in the needle, but with a 30g, 5/16" (8mm) needle it wouldn't be much, and a small bubble in the top takes care of that (if one is worried).

    Although I inject every day, I feel confident that I am not wasting a drop.

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