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Thread: TRT bad side effects - high E2?

  1. #1
    dadroxx is offline New Member
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    I've been on Axi gel topical for a few months and have generally felt worse since going on TRT. The first two months was somewhat of a roller coaster where I felt better, then bad, better...bad. However, the past 3 weeks have been bad every day.

    My symptoms for the past 3 weeks are higher blood pressure, irritable, trouble sleeping (never feel rested, always tired), tingling/numbness all over my body, foggy brain, trouble breathing, feel warm/sweats, always thirsty/dry mouth and anxiety/shaking.

    I brought this to my endo and she said I have those symptoms because my body is still adjusting to the TRT. I asked if it could be high E2 and she said 'no' because I'm on topical gel and high E2 is associated with injections. She proceeded to do blood work, T was 576, but never tested E2.

    My diet isn't bad but could certainly have some improvement. Sugar and carbs are a little high.

    One other note is I feel ok in the mornings and shortly after I apply the gel I begin to feel bad.

    Is she correct that E2 is not the cause of how I'm feeling?

    What can I do to curb those symptoms and feel better?

    Any advice is appreciated.
    Last edited by dadroxx; 03-16-2016 at 06:15 AM.

  2. #2
    KISSMIBUT is offline New Member
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    It is the e2. Your doctor won't check because they are told and paid not to. You need an anti estrogen. Or the trt will be useless. The best anti-estrogen for me is black caffeinated coffee. It just can't be straight caffeine in that it doesn't have all the other constituents that are present in coffee beans. Give it a try. Do not add milk or cream. It wont work. One cup a day while you are on trt and off of it . Estrogen has a 17 hour half life. Think about that. Also, the best part is that the coffee will flush the estrogen out of your system that is already present on their receptors. It is impossible for testosterone and estrogen to work simultaneously. They neutralize each other. The male body should only have .3 percent estrogen. 3 tenths, that is it. The black coffee will help immediately and my test was way lower than yours.

  3. #3
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    No she is incorrect. Higher T can certainly increase estrogen conversion especially if you are fat. Your dosage is delivered daily so in theory you should convert less, but you cant say for sure without checking- for the sake of an additional ticked box on a bloodtest she should accomadate that request. so as to compare.

    how do your nipples feel? If you get emotional and anxious as discribed this can mean an increase in E.

    id complain of nipple sensitivity and hopefully next time she adds the test to your follow up bloods.

    Or Maybe go to your local dr and get a bloodtest and ask for the sensitive E to be included as you feel off. see what it comes back as.

    as far as coffee goes, i dont know anything about it, but i doubt it would help as much as an AI could obviously. Worh a shot.
    Last edited by Simon1972; 03-16-2016 at 03:21 AM.

  4. #4
    dadroxx is offline New Member
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    No, I don't have any nipple sensitivity but will tell the endo I do so she'll test my E2 next time.

    Coincidently, after 3 weeks of agony, today I feel absolutely normal and good. Can't explain it but hopefully this continues tomorrow.

    Had black coffee as suggested. Certainly can't hurt.

  5. #5
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    I've felt the same way on TRT and it was one of two things:

    1. It was high e2 before we got it dialed in. We messed around with DIM and adex and my e2 went all over the place. I had it spike on me and had it crash as well; it wasn't fun.

    2. Once we got things dialed in, I started to have issues without my hCG due to the HTPA suppression. My testosterone and e2 levels are fine but testosterone doesn't just shut down your testosterone production, it can screw up many other hormones because can shut down your production or pregnenelone which has an enormous effect on the rest of your hormones. I'm on TRT because of pro-hormone and steroid use so my LH levels were crashed at it's baseline so the further suppression caused my exogenous testosterone threw many other hormones out of whack. I am currently waiting on a refill of my hCG (long story) but have begun supplementing with pregnenlone and feel much, much better.

    Getting everything dialed in doesn't just mean testosterone and e2: you need to take into consideration the multitude of other hormone and hormone precursors that are involved. Get your e2 levels checked and see where they stand. If they're within range then I would start looking for hCG. If you can't get your hands on hCG, pick up some pregnenlone and DHEA and supplement with it. I'd strongly consider supplementing with them anyway; they've both helped me out in a big way.
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  6. #6
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    have to agree with the preg and dhea...i only started doing the same 2 weeks ago and yes its lifted my lethargy.

  7. #7
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    This is also one of the reasons by I don't like the topical gels. They were much more unpredictable for me that the injections. I never quite knew how I was going to feel, day by day with it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweepTheLegJohnny View Post
    I've felt the same way on TRT and it was one of two things:

    1. It was high e2 before we got it dialed in. We messed around with DIM and adex and my e2 went all over the place. I had it spike on me and had it crash as well; it wasn't fun.

    2. Once we got things dialed in, I started to have issues without my hCG due to the HTPA suppression. My testosterone and e2 levels are fine but testosterone doesn't just shut down your testosterone production, it can screw up many other hormones because can shut down your production or pregnenelone which has an enormous effect on the rest of your hormones. I'm on TRT because of pro-hormone and steroid use so my LH levels were crashed at it's baseline so the further suppression caused my exogenous testosterone threw many other hormones out of whack. I am currently waiting on a refill of my hCG (long story) but have begun supplementing with pregnenlone and feel much, much better.

    Getting everything dialed in doesn't just mean testosterone and e2: you need to take into consideration the multitude of other hormone and hormone precursors that are involved. Get your e2 levels checked and see where they stand. If they're within range then I would start looking for hCG. If you can't get your hands on hCG, pick up some pregnenlone and DHEA and supplement with it. I'd strongly consider supplementing with them anyway; they've both helped me out in a big way.

    Really good advice Johnny! Backfilling pathways with preg / dhea is a great asset to any protocol.
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  9. #9
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Really good advice Johnny! Backfilling pathways with preg / dhea is a great asset to any protocol.
    Thanks Kellkel. This site has helped out tremendously. As well as my old Anatomy and Physiology text books, lol.

  10. #10
    dadroxx is offline New Member
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    I just got my bw today and my total T was 1,250 ng/ml and E2 was 124.6 pg/ml. PSA was 1.30 ng/ml.

    About an hour before my bw I had taken my first dose of Preg & DHEA. The bw was unplanned, I just happened to be at my endo dor my daughter, otherwise I wouldn't have taken anything and would have fasted. Endo offered to do my bw so I said sure.

    I'm happy with the T level from a gel. Didn't know gel would get me that high.

    E2 seems ridiculously high and endo wants to reduce how much topical gel I apply. Endo wouldn't give me an E2 blocker.

    Any thoughts on this? Can I get an E2 blocker elsewhere? Thx
    Last edited by dadroxx; 03-18-2016 at 03:05 PM.

  11. #11
    makingwaves is offline New Member
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    What form of preg/dhea are best? Micronized?

  12. #12
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadroxx View Post
    I just got my bw today and my total T was 1,250 ng/ml and E2 was 124.6 pg/ml. PSA was 1.30 ng/ml.

    About an hour before my bw I had taken my first dose of Preg & DHEA. The bw was unplanned, I just happened to be at my endo dor my daughter, otherwise I wouldn't have taken anything and would have fasted. Endo offered to do my bw so I said sure.

    I'm happy with the T level from a gel. Didn't know gel would get me that high.

    E2 seems ridiculously high and endo wants to reduce how much topical gel I apply. Endo wouldn't give me an E2 blocker.

    Any thoughts on this? Can I get an E2 blocker elsewhere? Thx

    When did you apply the gel prior to the appt?
    No worries about taking the preg/dhea or not fasting prior to testing for T or E. It's not necessary.
    Probably should consider dropping the dose a bit, but base it on your free T, not total T.
    Avoid AI's if at all possible.
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  13. #13
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makingwaves View Post
    What form of preg/dhea are best? Micronized?

    Yes, micronized survives the first pass through the liver and makes it much more effective than non micronized.
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  14. #14
    dadroxx is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post

    When did you apply the gel prior to the appt?
    No worries about taking the preg/dhea or not fasting prior to testing for T or E. It's not necessary.
    Probably should consider dropping the dose a bit, but base it on your free T, not total T.
    Avoid AI's if at all possible.
    I applied at 7am and my blood draw was at 3pm, 8 hrs later. I was appling 120 mg (4 swips). Will drop to 90 mg (3).

    Endo drew blood twice to double check. She was surprised I was at 1250.

    Ty Kelkel!

  15. #15
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadroxx View Post
    I just got my bw today and my total T was 1,250 ng/ml and E2 was 124.6 pg/ml. PSA was 1.30 ng/ml.

    About an hour before my bw I had taken my first dose of Preg & DHEA. The bw was unplanned, I just happened to be at my endo dor my daughter, otherwise I wouldn't have taken anything and would have fasted. Endo offered to do my bw so I said sure.

    I'm happy with the T level from a gel. Didn't know gel would get me that high.

    E2 seems ridiculously high and endo wants to reduce how much topical gel I apply. Endo wouldn't give me an E2 blocker.

    Any thoughts on this? Can I get an E2 blocker elsewhere? Thx
    I'll be blunt... That testosterone level is too high... That's honestly the kind of test levels you'd see in a guy running a small cycle of steroids . You are going to struggle mightily to get that e2 level under control without lowering your dosage of test. I would be so bold as to say that you WON'T be able to get it under control without lowering the dosage. You could possibly bring it down with high doses of arimidex but that I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Well, maybe my ex-wife.. The roller coaster you're going to get will be a nightmare and you won't be able to control those levels with DIM or zinc either.

    Again, talk to her about injections as they're easier to manage. And secondly, drop your test dosage down significantly. You have to remember that running high levels of test isn't healthy either: your blood damn-near turns to yogurt and you risk throwing a blood clot. I know that one of the reasons I felt like crap on high doses of test was how thick my blood was becoming: I wasn't getting enough oxygen to my brain, I was winded all of the time and just felt like crap. Right now, I donate once every two months and that's even a stretch for me: I start getting winded and light headed about a week or two out from my appointment. I've started getting sneaky and started alternating between two blood banks so I donate once a month.

  16. #16
    Proximal is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweepTheLegJohnny View Post
    I've felt the same way on TRT and it was one of two things:

    1. It was high e2 before we got it dialed in. We messed around with DIM and adex and my e2 went all over the place. I had it spike on me and had it crash as well; it wasn't fun.

    2. Once we got things dialed in, I started to have issues without my hCG due to the HTPA suppression. My testosterone and e2 levels are fine but testosterone doesn't just shut down your testosterone production, it can screw up many other hormones because can shut down your production or pregnenelone which has an enormous effect on the rest of your hormones. I'm on TRT because of pro-hormone and steroid use so my LH levels were crashed at it's baseline so the further suppression caused my exogenous testosterone threw many other hormones out of whack. I am currently waiting on a refill of my hCG (long story) but have begun supplementing with pregnenlone and feel much, much better.

    Getting everything dialed in doesn't just mean testosterone and e2: you need to take into consideration the multitude of other hormone and hormone precursors that are involved. Get your e2 levels checked and see where they stand. If they're within range then I would start looking for hCG. If you can't get your hands on hCG, pick up some pregnenlone and DHEA and supplement with it. I'd strongly consider supplementing with them anyway; they've both helped me out in a big way.
    Great post, couple of questions:

    Dumb one first, but what is DIM?

    Struggling with the to hGH or not to hGH question. For me right now @ 57, don't need the sperm and testicular atrophy has been very minimal BUT all of this about LH & pregnenolone needed for other things concerns me.

    My initial searches for finding what additional purposes LH & prenenolone has, has drawn zeros. Please tell me what source you are using, if it's a book or article, I would like to get a hold of it - thanx!
    Added: I meant information not found here - again, thanx!
    Last edited by Proximal; 03-19-2016 at 03:06 PM.

  17. #17
    Proximal is offline Banned
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    Scratch that request Johnny, lazy on my part. Did some searching, think I have a grasp now.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KISSMIBUT View Post
    It is the e2. Your doctor won't check because they are told and paid not to. You need an anti estrogen. Or the trt will be useless. The best anti-estrogen for me is black caffeinated coffee. It just can't be straight caffeine in that it doesn't have all the other constituents that are present in coffee beans. Give it a try. Do not add milk or cream. It wont work. One cup a day while you are on trt and off of it . Estrogen has a 17 hour half life. Think about that. Also, the best part is that the coffee will flush the estrogen out of your system that is already present on their receptors. It is impossible for testosterone and estrogen to work simultaneously. They neutralize each other. The male body should only have .3 percent estrogen. 3 tenths, that is it. The black coffee will help immediately and my test was way lower than yours.
    This is the stupidest thing I've read all week.
    Remove your tin foil hat and go home.
    Last edited by Bonaparte; 03-19-2016 at 06:38 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweepTheLegJohnny View Post
    This is also one of the reasons by I don't like the topical gels. They were much more unpredictable for me that the injections. I never quite knew how I was going to feel, day by day with it.
    I would get off the gel and use an injectable. Another reason I don't like transdermal delivery,,,unpredictable.

  20. #20
    KISSMIBUT is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonaparte View Post
    this is the stupidest thing i've read all week.
    Remove your tin foil hat and go home.
    who are you!! What do you even know? No knowledge of the enzymes that even allow test, estrogen, or even cortisol to be produced. If you did, then you wouldn't have even commented. Give advice. If not then why even have a brain?

  21. #21
    Simon1972's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KISSMIBUT View Post
    who are you!! What do you even know? No knowledge of the enzymes that even allow test, estrogen, or even cortisol to be produced. If you did, then you wouldn't have even commented. Give advice. If not then why even have a brain?

  22. #22
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximal View Post
    Great post, couple of questions:

    Dumb one first, but what is DIM?

    Struggling with the to hGH or not to hGH question. For me right now @ 57, don't need the sperm and testicular atrophy has been very minimal BUT all of this about LH & pregnenolone needed for other things concerns me.

    My initial searches for finding what additional purposes LH & prenenolone has, has drawn zeros. Please tell me what source you are using, if it's a book or article, I would like to get a hold of it - thanx!
    Added: I meant information not found here - again, thanx!
    DIM is the active chemical found in cruciferous vegetables but the pills are far more potent than just eating your broccoli or cauliflower. It works to block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen and works well for some folks. I know many people who don't need a prescribed AI at all and just use DIM as it can lower your estrogen by about 10 points or so in most people.

    But, I didn't have very good luck with it. It did help to a point when my e2 was spiked but it's unpredictable because it has a short half-life. Combining it with an AI like arimidex can be a pain in the ass because it sends your e2 levels bouncing all over the place, versus having nice, steady levels.

    The hcG is great because, again, it stimulates the production of pregnenelone which is the precursor for many of your hormones. I found that the exogenous testosterone was lowering my adrenal hormones among others which made me feel like complete and total hell. In secondary hypogonadism, your LH levels are crashed which doesn't just affect your test, it affects the whole HPTA axis which messes with many hormones and chemical pathways. A few doses of hCG alleviates this problem by basically acting as an LH replacement. I've taken as little as 200iUs a week of hCG and it really improved my overall sense of well-being. I've also noticed that I leaned out in a hurry when put on hCG which is fantastic. To honest, it wasn't all that hard to get for me. I just told my endo that the testosterone injections without the hCG were causing testicular atrophy that was painful to the point of wanting to discontinue. He didn't have an issue prescribing 500iUs a week because it's a tiny dose compared to the thousands upon thousands he has prescribed to guys with fertility issues.

    Pregnenelone supplementation is a great thing but, IMO, it's not a a good enough replacement for hCG. It does work and gives you many of the same benefits of hCG but it's just no where as effective. I started supplementing with it because I screwed up when mixing my hCG (didn't draw out all of the excess air: f-ing idiot) and lost about a mL of it to leakage. So, I ran out a few weeks early, felt like crap on straight test and started taking pregnenlone. But, as has been stated, get the micronized stuff: I was NOT impressed with the regular stuff I picked up: it takes forever to kick in.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon1972 View Post
    omg thats a good one

  24. #24
    jstone is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by KISSMIBUT View Post
    who are you!! What do you even know? No knowledge of the enzymes that even allow test, estrogen, or even cortisol to be produced. If you did, then you wouldn't have even commented. Give advice. If not then why even have a brain?
    I dont personally know Bonaparte, but inhave read enough of his posts to know he is in the upper echelon of knowledgeable members. Honestly some of the stuff he posts is on another level. I dont blindly believe what anyone says, but Bonaparte is one of the members that I never question what he posts. There are many more members here like him, and they are what makes this place what it is. This is the go to site for information.
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