Doesn't seem that low, should I even go down this road?

[bioshocked]

Let's start with some numbers. Here are some basic numbers from my last 2 labs.

6'0" currently 177 Lbs.

2016 March: (sadly this is all I got from the lab)
Total T: 429 ng/dL (Morning)
IGF-1: 143 ng/mL

2015 August: (I have more details, just have to find the full lab results again)
Total T: 390 ng/dL (Afternoon)
Free T: 6.08 ng/dL ( 60.8 pg/mL )

2009 August: (Not sure I can find the labs on this one to see the rest of the blood work)
Total T: 454 ng/dL (not sure on the time, likely afternoon)

I am 39 and have been going to the gym hardcore since 2009. Yet my body stays at 170-180 Lbs at 6'0" height. I rarely miss a week at the gym. And have tried 3, 4, and 5 day splits. I do Cardio and Weight lifting. Shifting back and forth on how much cardio I do. 2015 I tried no cardio other than 5 min warm ups and cool downs. And have pretty much tried every supplement and diet out there. I simply can't seem to get my body composition to change. Fat levels change slightly between 15-20% (generalized measuring) when I greatly change my calorie intake. Lean mass doesn't change much either.

I am so tired of putting in the effort and not getting anywhere. People at the gym and around me are always asking why I am so tired all the time. More so at the gym. I got a new bed in 2015 after seeing my 390 T number and I think that has helped a little. But I am not looking at HRT to help me sleep or have more energy. I simply want to improve my body's ability to gain mass and lose fat with all my efforts.

So, the basic question. Does anyone thing I should try an HRT plan to see if it will change my body composition with all my efforts with gym, recovery, and diet?

Is it even realistic to think it will help me when my numbers are around 400?

[bioshocked]

And the obvious next part of this. If I do start therapy, I am looking for a Dr in Phoenix. I have called a few compounding pharmacies and got a few Dr's to call. But so far it's not going too well.

This is how it goes so far when I call:
1. They don't do it. My PCP is this way.
2. They do it, but are not taking new patients.
3. They do it, but max they maintain ranges from 500 to 700. Not sure I want that limit imposed when the range goes to 1100-1200 on many lab results.
4. They are a clinic and the cost is insane and/or they won't let you self inject at home. They control lab pricing etc. Just super expensive.

And then I found 1 that will let me self inject at home and fill the script where I want. But they charge a 125 monthly "subscription" that doesn't give you anything. Given that I don't expect many visits per year, it seems expensive to pay 1500 a year just for them to write scripts and advise 2 times a year after I am stable. But they have experience and at willing to maintain a range as high as 800-1200 depending on all the other numbers and symptoms.

Given that I have only found 1 that might work, I would like to keep looking for someone in Phoenix.

[bullshark99]

I would proceed with caution if I were you. The cost is the cost, your gonna pay about 200 a month unless you can get your GP to manage you.
The big thing here, you go down this road its for life. This isn't something you try then stop, if so you will be risking your own production further.
Based on your reasons, seems to me your more interested in a cycle than TRT? Nothing wrong if that's the case....

[Mp859]

I would imagine you aren't eating enough quality food.

[bioshocked]

I would proceed with caution if I were you. The cost is the cost, your gonna pay about 200 a month unless you can get your GP to manage you.
The big thing here, you go down this road its for life. This isn't something you try then stop, if so you will be risking your own production further.
Based on your reasons, seems to me your more interested in a cycle than TRT? Nothing wrong if that's the case....

I agree, this is for life. I am not interested in a cycle. But if it doesn't help me reach my goals and I can get off before it totally destroys my natural production permanently; then I wouldn't continue and I would change my goals.

But does anyone think that TRT in general would help me reach my goals when my numbers look like this?

[bioshocked]

I would imagine you aren't eating enough quality food.

I am told this all the time. And I have changed it many times. Other than talking about my total calories, which I have increased many times until it seems I am only gaining fat. I will say that I think I eat pretty good foods. I rarely eat out, only on vacations if I can't make stuff on my own. No soda. Rarely cereal. Chicken breast, leans meats, whole milk on and off depending on purpose. Almonds. Peanut Butter, veggies, bananas, apples, fish, sweet potatoes off and on when I have time to peel and cook them. Cottage cheese. Plain greek yogurt. Oatmeal. Eggs. Beans. Occasional home made mexican food with and without the tortilla shells. Brown rice. Cheese sometimes. And sometimes desert foods, generally around holidays and events. Also under control. Trying to think of other things I eat often. It's mostly Chicken, rice, oatmeal, eggs, veggies, and milk for my protein shakes. Which is only once a day right now.

Enough = Not sure, when I do track the amounts I think I typically get around 2200-2500. And when I force it and plan, I have a hard time hitting 3000-3300 calories. And when I am at this range I seem to gain a little fat but still no muscle mass and no strength increses.

Quality = I think I eat quality foods. I stay away from processed foods in general. I don't buy grass fed beef, but I wouldn't call the fish, beef, and chicken that I eat as low quality.

Still, while I think my T has improved with some foods, I just am not getting anywhere with all the things I try and it seems like the only thing left to try is altering my biology through medical treatment.

Or should the low 400's be plenty in general for muscle mass and fat loss, and I am simply wasting my time researching TRT for this?

[SweepTheLegJohnny]

This is a grey area toss-up, honestly...

My first round of BW showed that my total T was just below 300 back in 2014 and I had the most "respected" endocrinologist in the area tell me that my levels weren't low enough to warrant a hypogandism diagnosis even though that number was out of the lab's range. I found many doctors that were willing to prescribe testosterone after that but I also found that I needed hCG due to the severe suppression of the my already deficient HTPA... I couldn't find a doctor to prescribe hCG so I went with an expensive private clinic for awhile, got everything dialed in and then hunted down an endo six months later and showed him how successful my protocol had been. He was more than happy to work with me after seeing all of blood work and doing a full CBC round himself.

But, I honestly wouldn't have gone down the TRT road if a)my libido hadn't been shit, b) I couldn't drop weight to save my life and I was 290lbs at 5'11'' (I was a former competitive bodybuilder so I know how to eat and train..) and c) my depression and anxiety were worsening every single year and the docs were just piling on psychotropics. So, if I were in your shoes, I would think long and hard about jumping into TRT given that your test levels wouldn't be considered low for your age, you'd have a difficult time finding a doctor that would take the case on and that's a circus because it takes time to get the protocol dialed in.

[bioshocked]

This is a grey area toss-up, honestly...

My first round of BW showed that my total T was just below 300 back in 2014 and I had the most "respected" endocrinologist in the area tell me that my levels weren't low enough to warrant a hypogandism diagnosis even though that number was out of the lab's range. I found many doctors that were willing to prescribe testosterone after that but I also found that I needed hCG due to the severe suppression of the my already deficient HTPA... I couldn't find a doctor to prescribe hCG so I went with an expensive private clinic for awhile, got everything dialed in and then hunted down an endo six months later and showed him how successful my protocol had been. He was more than happy to work with me after seeing all of blood work and doing a full CBC round himself.

But, I honestly wouldn't have gone down the TRT road if a)my libido hadn't been shit, b) I couldn't drop weight to save my life and I was 290lbs at 5'11'' (I was a former competitive bodybuilder so I know how to eat and train..) and c) my depression and anxiety were worsening every single year and the docs were just piling on psychotropics. So, if I were in your shoes, I would think long and hard about jumping into TRT given that your test levels wouldn't be considered low for your age, you'd have a difficult time finding a doctor that would take the case on and that's a circus because it takes time to get the protocol dialed in.

I am happy that I don't have any sexual issues or concerns. Depression comes and goes. Likely just life stress. Not on anything right now. I do have energy issues, but that too could be many things or I simply just push too hard and recover poorly.

The Doctors are out there. As my first posts says, I can get on a TRT plan now and depending on many factors, they could bring my Total T up to 900-1200. Etc.

So far the people replying don't think I should use a TRT plan to build muscle and lose fat for the rest of my life. Is it because it is a life long commitment? Or is it because no one here thinks it will actually help me build muscle and lose fat. I am neither skinny nor fat. 15% body fat is higher than I want. But not fat. I would like to be single digits for body fat, and a lot more lean muscle. Would like to get to 190-200 Lbs and 7-9% BF. After years of staying the same no matter what I try or the trainers I get, I am searching for answers that might be my biology.

[bioshocked]

How about this question as another way to look at it. If my low 400's at 39 is considered fine, "don't do anything". Then what range are people going to here when they are committed to TRT? 400? 450? 500?

I see plenty of people saying they are on TRT for specific symptoms and with a natural range usually way below 300 for total T. But are most of you only getting your levels up to the 400 range? If many labs list a normal range between 300-1100, then isn't 400 on the low side? Maybe not low enough to cause sexual or other issues, but I don't recovery, build muscle, or lose fat as well as I used to. And that might be normal. But why not tweak biology to be closer to a naturally strong male in their 20's?

[Qball692]

How about this question as another way to look at it. If my low 400's at 39 is considered fine, "don't do anything". Then what range are people going to here when they are committed to TRT? 400? 450? 500?

I see plenty of people saying they are on TRT for specific symptoms and with a natural range usually way below 300 for total T. But are most of you only getting your levels up to the 400 range? If many labs list a normal range between 300-1100, then isn't 400 on the low side? Maybe not low enough to cause sexual or other issues, but I don't recovery, build muscle, or lose fat as well as I used to. And that might be normal. But why not tweak biology to be closer to a naturally strong male in their 20's?

I feel you on that! My test is in the 520's. Yet I have hit a wall, and i have all the symptoms of low Test, the Low T centers up here in the Springs tell me im low. Yet I have been told not to do TRT.

[Bio-Active]

How about this question as another way to look at it. If my low 400's at 39 is considered fine, "don't do anything". Then what range are people going to here when they are committed to TRT? 400? 450? 500? I see plenty of people saying they are on TRT for specific symptoms and with a natural range usually way below 300 for total T. But are most of you only getting your levels up to the 400 range? If many labs list a normal range between 300-1100, then isn't 400 on the low side? Maybe not low enough to cause sexual or other issues, but I don't recovery, build muscle, or lose fat as well as I used to. And that might be normal. But why not tweak biology to be closer to a naturally strong male in their 20's?

most of us didn't start trt till out levels were well below 300.. My levels were 220 and I was still able to get shredded and had people asking what I was running

[bioshocked]

I feel you on that! My test is in the 520's. Yet I have hit a wall, and i have all the symptoms of low Test, the Low T centers up here in the Springs tell me im low. Yet I have been told not to do TRT.

Like anything, it's risk/reward. As of this stage in my life, really the only reward that I see as worth the risk, is if I can build muscle and lose fat with all my time in the gym and clean eating. Other than that, I don't really mind the lack of energy as I have dealt with that for years and probably don't know any better.

So for men with natural levels that are extremely low like 200 or less, would they be happy with the risk and life time injections to only get their numbers to 400-500? Maybe they would. I am sure it depends on the goal. If the goal is just to correct other symptoms and not to build muscle, I would probably be happy with just doing the bare minimum to correct those things.

But since I don't have those symptoms, I would like to have all my levels at the high end of the "healthy" spectrum for prime muscle building, fat loss, and healing/recovery of strong men that likely also have high levels naturally.

What do people think of my Free T levels that I posted?

[bioshocked]

most of us didn't start trt till out levels were well below 300.. My levels were 220 and I was still able to get shredded and had people asking what I was running

wow, so you were shredded and had good muscle mass at 220? I guess that is why the lab range is so huge. People must be able to build muscle and lose fat in a wide spectrum of levels. I seriously have tried an insane number of natural things for at least 8+ years. And when I do lose fat, I lose muscle as well and just end up looking like a very skinny runner. And when I gain muscle, I only restore what I had before and restore the fat levels as well. I see all these people who claim to be all natural (and they look natural), that have amazing body transformations in 12 weeks. Or even 1 year. But I haven't really changed in 8 years.

[Bio-Active]

wow, so you were shredded and had good muscle mass at 220? I guess that is why the lab range is so huge. People must be able to build muscle and lose fat in a wide spectrum of levels. I seriously have tried an insane number of natural things for at least 8+ years. And when I do lose fat, I lose muscle as well and just end up looking like a very skinny runner. And when I gain muscle, I only restore what I had before and restore the fat levels as well. I see all these people who claim to be all natural (and they look natural), that have amazing body transformations in 12 weeks. Or even 1 year. But I haven't really changed in 8 years.

Yes i would have been happy with a level in the high 400's. My eating was impeccably clean and training was totally dialed in as well. Once i started looking at it the highest i ever came back was 280

[bioshocked]

Yes i would have been happy with a level in the high 400's. My eating was impeccably clean and training was totally dialed in as well. Once i started looking at it the highest i ever came back was 280

Happy to naturally be high 400's? Or to be on TRT in the high 400's? At least with others I have talked to in the gym scene with low T (below 300), they are not happy with their muscle gain performance with anything less than 800-900+ on hormone treatment.

If I am missing something to get shredded and significant mass gains with my natural 400's, I would prefer that for sure. But after almost a decade of trying and only getting older without success, I still wonder if it's my hormone levels.

[Bio-Active]

Happy to naturally be high 400's? Or to be on TRT in the high 400's? At least with others I have talked to in the gym scene with low T (below 300), they are not happy with their muscle gain performance with anything less than 800-900+ on hormone treatment.

If I am missing something to get shredded and significant mass gains with my natural 400's, I would prefer that for sure. But after almost a decade of trying and only getting older without success, I still wonder if it's my hormone levels.

Like i said i would be happy with levels in the natty 400's and i was shredded with levels in the 200's but my diet and training were spot on

[bioshocked]

Like i said i would be happy with levels in the natty 400's and i was shredded with levels in the 200's but my diet and training were spot on

I am constantly trying to reach this mythical "spot on" training and diet. I have been striving for that for years. I have tried 3, 4, and 5 day splits. With and without cardio. Last year for 2015 I dropped all cardio and had 1 goal. To gain as much strength and mass as I could. Even if it meant more fat than I wanted. And I couldn't even do that. I think I gained went from 175 and finished at 180. And I think most of that was fat as my weights didn't go up much in my tracking. I just ended up having the most exertion headaches I have ever had in 1 year. 3 of them. Lasting up to 1 month at a time. Which meant big breaks in gym time in 2015.

Not saying I don't believe you. I do. And for years I have been telling myself my body is fine, it's my training and diet. But if that is really true still, then I am exhausted in trying to find what magic formula is "spot on" for my body. I see so many people succeeding and I don't know why I can't seem to replicate that. Even with someone training me and watching my diet. I have had multiple trainers, a nutritionalist, advice from the gym and internet. All over the spectrum. Nothing I do seems to make any difference.

And worse, when I push myself too hard my body doesn't seem to recover. So trying to go back to a 3 day split with cardio on the rest days. A 5 day split, even with having 7 days between major groups, and I can't seem to recovery well with that much going on. So likely a 3 or 4 day split is best for me.

Still, I would love to try more things if it's something I haven't tried before, if it means I can stay natural.

[Bio-Active]

I am constantly trying to reach this mythical "spot on" training and diet. I have been striving for that for years. I have tried 3, 4, and 5 day splits. With and without cardio. Last year for 2015 I dropped all cardio and had 1 goal. To gain as much strength and mass as I could. Even if it meant more fat than I wanted. And I couldn't even do that. I think I gained went from 175 and finished at 180. And I think most of that was fat as my weights didn't go up much in my tracking. I just ended up having the most exertion headaches I have ever had in 1 year. 3 of them. Lasting up to 1 month at a time. Which meant big breaks in gym time in 2015.

Not saying I don't believe you. I do. And for years I have been telling myself my body is fine, it's my training and diet. But if that is really true still, then I am exhausted in trying to find what magic formula is "spot on" for my body. I see so many people succeeding and I don't know why I can't seem to replicate that. Even with someone training me and watching my diet. I have had multiple trainers, a nutritionalist, advice from the gym and internet. All over the spectrum. Nothing I do seems to make any difference.

And worse, when I push myself too hard my body doesn't seem to recover. So trying to go back to a 3 day split with cardio on the rest days. A 5 day split, even with having 7 days between major groups, and I can't seem to recovery well with that much going on. So likely a 3 or 4 day split is best for me.

Still, I would love to try more things if it's something I haven't tried before, if it means I can stay natural.

I made my best gains working out 4 days and taking 3 days in a row off. Rest is important to.

[bioshocked]

I made my best gains working out 4 days and taking 3 days in a row off. Rest is important to.

I have been focusing heavily on recovery for the last 3 years. Even more so the last 6 months. Bought a new bed and topper. Iron Dream sup has helped on training nights. Etc. I always rest Sat/Sun and sometimes Fri/Sat/Sun. I have done M/W/F , M/Tu/Th/F , M/Tu/W , and in 2015 I tried mostly M/Tu/W/Th/F and that was the worst for me. And this year I have been trying to do M/W/F for weights, and Tu/Th for cardio, mix of steady and HITT depending on how rested I feel.

Again, I am not saying the answer isn't out there. I just can't seem to find it. Also tried so many supplements and diets variations. Currently I am just using Protein powder and Creatine Mono, with Iron Dream off and on to help me sleep deeper on training nights. Caffeine messes me up, so I don't use caffeine at all. I don't drink coffee or alcohol. No smoking. Etc. I make sure that my protein ratio is at least 1.0g per body weight, so around 180g per day. Though I have also tried in the range of 200-250g of protein a day. Plenty of water, etc. Didn't seem to make any difference either, just cost more.

In the gym people keep asking me why I don't have much energy. I exhaust fast pushing heavy. And I can't even push very heavy. Poor ATP response or something maybe. Not sure. So supersets suck for me. But still, I have tried variations of supersetting and long rest periods between sets. No difference. I get sore pretty easily and my DOMS lasts for days. I basically live sore, just moves around to different muscles.

[Bio-Active]

I have been focusing heavily on recovery for the last 3 years. Even more so the last 6 months. Bought a new bed and topper. Iron Dream sup has helped on training nights. Etc. I always rest Sat/Sun and sometimes Fri/Sat/Sun. I have done M/W/F , M/Tu/Th/F , M/Tu/W , and in 2015 I tried mostly M/Tu/W/Th/F and that was the worst for me. And this year I have been trying to do M/W/F for weights, and Tu/Th for cardio, mix of steady and HITT depending on how rested I feel. Again, I am not saying the answer isn't out there. I just can't seem to find it. Also tried so many supplements and diets variations. Currently I am just using Protein powder and Creatine Mono, with Iron Dream off and on to help me sleep deeper on training nights. Caffeine messes me up, so I don't use caffeine at all. I don't drink coffee or alcohol. No smoking. Etc. I make sure that my protein ratio is at least 1.0g per body weight, so around 180g per day. Though I have also tried in the range of 200-250g of protein a day. Plenty of water, etc. Didn't seem to make any difference either, just cost more. In the gym people keep asking me why I don't have much energy. I exhaust fast pushing heavy. And I can't even push very heavy. Poor ATP response or something maybe. Not sure. So supersets suck for me. But still, I have tried variations of supersetting and long rest periods between sets. No difference. I get sore pretty easily and my DOMS lasts for days. I basically live sore, just moves around to different muscles.

what does your daily food intake look like? What have you ate today?

[bioshocked]

what does your daily food intake look like? What have you ate today?

Today is a bad example as I am sick and also missed the gym. Though I didn't eat poorly today, just haven't eaten much today. throat is killing me. Drinking tons of water to sooth the pain.

Anyways, I will a typical day this year. Tried higher calories last year.

Breakfast:
Vitamin C
3 hard boiled eggs, white and yokes.
1/2 cup to 3/4 cup dry-measured whole oats, cooked. Plain. Sometimes with 1/8 cup of fruit.
1 banana

Snack:
4% fat cottage cheese with 1/8 cup fruit
Almonds, Peanuts, or PB

Post workout:
1 banana 30 mins pre

Post workout:
40-50g protein from whey shake with water or whole milk (to affect the protein and fast carbs)
1 banana
creatine monohydrate mixed in gatorade
Fish oil pills
Sometimes L-Glutamine and L-lysine

Lunch:
Yesterday it was brown rice, chicken breast, some salsa, and black beans
But this is often chicken breast, broccoli normady from Costco, and either rice or sweet potatoes. Sometimes white potatoes mashed. Can also be lean steak.

snack 2:
varies between cottage cheese/fruit for 12-24g protein, or low fat string cheese for 21g protein, or 100% natural no-sugar added PB on rice cake, or almonds.

Dinner:
More rotation of Chicken breast, beef, or fish. With veggies and either sweet potatoes or brown rice. I eat dinner with the rest of the family so sometimes we have mexican which I eat with and without tortilla shells depending on if I feel I can have the carbs.

Snack 3:
More of the same from what I eat for snacks. But lately it has been mostly cottage cheese and PB, separately. Sometimes I skip this snack or have casein protein.

And other variations for dinner and snacks. But breakfast is the same M-F with scrambled eggs on the weekend or french toast made with a lot of eggs and protein powder in the mix.

The staples of my diet are oatmeal, chicken, beef, fish, brown rice, almonds, PB, sweet potatoes, broccoli Normandy from Costco, bell peppers, eggs, whole milk, cottage cheese, and bananas. Then sometimes other things like apples, berries, rice cakes, white potatoes, white rice, and tortillas for mexican. Avocados probably once a week with the mexican. Then rarely deserts and breads during holidays and birthdays.

Mostly just change how much of this I eat to control total calories and macros.

[Bio-Active]

You need to take those snacks and turn them I to meals. Your not eating enough. The food choices are pretty good but we need to get you eating more food. Those protein shakes don't have many calories either I gave those up years ago and put food in there place

[bioshocked]

You need to take those snacks and turn them I to meals. Your not eating enough. The food choices are pretty good but we need to get you eating more food. Those protein shakes don't have many calories either I gave those up years ago and put food in there place

Yeah, I generally only have 1 shake for my post workout to satisfy my sweet tooth and for quick carbs and quick protein. And I rarely have the bedtime shake. A tub of powder lasts me a long time. I tried to replace it with food but miss the sweetness of the shake.

Last year I did pretty much what you are suggesting. I would prep tubs of brown rice (1 cup cooked) with a chicken breast and veggies. And eat 3 of those while at work. Plus my workout shake and my usual breakfast. AND with the snacks. And still have dinner and bedtime snack. I did that for 6 weeks and finally gained 1 or 2 Lbs. but no change in gym performance. Still tired as could be. That was hard for 2 reasons. Took a ton of time over the weekends to cook a whole box of rice, peel my sweet potatoes and grill a ton of chicken. And 2nd, I really have a hard time eating that much food. Always feeling constantly full to the point of feeling ill.

At that point I was getting around 250 and sometimes as high as 300g of protein a day and well over 3000 calories a day. I think it came to around 3500-3600 cals a day.

I also tried caffeine to help with gym fatigue but it didn't help and only gave me the shakes. I don't like it.

Still, was actually already planning on bumping my calories up again this weekend but now that I feel sick and it's a holiday, I will probably wait until next weekend to bump it up that much. And even when when I wasn't that prepped, I was still trying to eat a ton all of 2015 with little success. I only did the actual counting and full preps for 6 weeks. The rest was me thinking I was eating a lot.

[bioshocked]

Bio-Active, is that photo of you naturally at 220 T levels?

[Bio-Active]

Yeah, I generally only have 1 shake for my post workout to satisfy my sweet tooth and for quick carbs and quick protein. And I rarely have the bedtime shake. A tub of powder lasts me a long time. I tried to replace it with food but miss the sweetness of the shake. Last year I did pretty much what you are suggesting. I would prep tubs of brown rice (1 cup cooked) with a chicken breast and veggies. And eat 3 of those while at work. Plus my workout shake and my usual breakfast. AND with the snacks. And still have dinner and bedtime snack. I did that for 6 weeks and finally gained 1 or 2 Lbs. but no change in gym performance. Still tired as could be. That was hard for 2 reasons. Took a ton of time over the weekends to cook a whole box of rice, peel my sweet potatoes and grill a ton of chicken. And 2nd, I really have a hard time eating that much food. Always feeling constantly full to the point of feeling ill. At that point I was getting around 250 and sometimes as high as 300g of protein a day and well over 3000 calories a day. I think it came to around 3500-3600 cals a day. I also tried caffeine to help with gym fatigue but it didn't help and only gave me the shakes. I don't like it. Still, was actually already planning on bumping my calories up again this weekend but now that I feel sick and it's a holiday, I will probably wait until next weekend to bump it up that much. And even when when I wasn't that prepped, I was still trying to eat a ton all of 2015 with little success. I only did the actual counting and full preps for 6 weeks. The rest was me thinking I was eating a lot.

bottom line is if you were eating that much and only gaining 1-2 lbs then you still were not eating enough. Clean food dies not have a lot of calories in it and you have to eat a ton of food to grow. You could add more essential fats to your meals to get more calories in as well. Take a look at nach and my thread. Bio and nachs extreme lifestyle and see how much work we put into eating and training

[Bio-Active]

Bio-Active, is that photo of you naturally at 220 T levels?

no in my avi I was running 200 mg of test cyp every 5 days. Nothing else

[bioshocked]

no in my avi I was running 200 mg of test cyp every 5 days. Nothing else

Darn, that kind of makes me want to do test cyp as well. I was hoping that was your before picture while at a natural 220 level. So what is your level at in that photo on test cyp? 500?

[Bio-Active]

Darn, that kind of makes me want to do test cyp as well. I was hoping that was your before picture while at a natural 220 level. So what is your level at in that photo on test cyp? 500?

not very high about 1200 ng/dl

[bioshocked]

not very high about 1200 ng/dl

That is called not very high? Am I missing something? I thought 800-1200 was the high end of the spectrum. And I have only found 1 doctor that will go up to 1200 but will likely try to keep me in the 900-1000 range.

So based on my numbers and goals, do you still think I can reach a body composition in your photo with only about 400 natural levels? Before I start really asking for more help to find a Phoenix Dr, I am trying to see if people think boosting from 400 natural to 800-1200 on TRT will have realistic expectations to gain muscle and lose fat if I eat enough and keep up with my training and recovery lifestyle.

So far a few people here feel I shouldn't consider a lifetime of TRT when my natural levels are around 400. Yet I am near 40 and I am not getting younger. I feel my T level is as boosted as it will get via diet and exercise. Might be able to push another 50 naturally. But why wait until I am 50 or 60 and lower T levels to reach my body goals if I can start now.

[SweepTheLegJohnny]

I viewed starting TRT from a strictly medical stand-point. I had destroyed my HPTA system using pro-hormones and AAS, my body fat levels crept up and up (even with a proper diet and exercise), my blood sugar was climbing, I had NO libido, my depression and anxiety were getting out of control and the docs were pouring on psychotropics (that I am now weaning off of) and the fatigue was so bad that they tested me for several auto-immune disorders.. I finally asked a doctor to run my testosterone levels and we found out that they were completely crashed, along with several other hormones. To make matters worse, I couldn't really hit the gym much anymore as I wasn't recovering, even while eating properly and getting rest.

You're correct, there is a risk/reward behind every decision but I feel that making the choice to jump on TRT is a big one given that it really is a life-long commitment and it can be an extremely bumpy road to try and get it dialed in. I struggled to get proper treatment for three years as doctors just weren't educated on the subject. They loaded me up on test, didn't listen to me when I my e2 sky-rocketed and my testicles throbbed until I could barely sit. I quit therapy cold turkey three times because of all of these problems which was hell-on-earth, in and of itself.

To be honest, I wasn't even impressed with the private TRT doctor that I was seeing. She started me out on the max dose for TRT (200mgs week), didn't return messages when I was fighting the symptoms of high e2 and then threw me on a .5mgs of arimidex twice a week when my e2 levels were less than five points out of range. I crashed my e2, I felt like death and finally just cut my dosage in half to save myself the hassle. It took me THREE weeks to get a hold of her to tell her that I was dropping my dosage.

So, just be aware that this isn't a simple path to go down.

[bioshocked]

...
So, just be aware that this isn't a simple path to go down.

Sorry to hear your story. This is a serious matter and by far not a simple process at all. I have seen success stories and stories of hell like yours. Which is why I didn't just simply a month ago when a clinic wanted me to start. I wanted to research first.

Currently I only see 2 options for me:

1. Don't start a TRT lifetime lifestyle. Which based on the last 8+ years, means I am 99% likely to not get anywhere with my body image goals. I am healthy and don't suffer any debilitating symptoms. Sex life is fine. Energy is manageable but could likely be improved with or without TRT. I am not on any medical treatments, etc. Other than being on the low end of the "normal" spectrum of T levels, I would say I am healthy and don't NEED anything to just keep living. Body fat is respectable around 15-17%, lean mass is ok with my body weight at 170-180 range. No abs. Just look like a regular healthy 39 year old that goes to the gym.

2. I alter my biology. As that appears to be the only factor I haven't tried in 8+ years.

After so many years of being patient and trying so many things while seeing others around me making great improvements in their fitness body image goals, I don't want to wait until I am even older to start TRT if this is the missing key to my goals. The major downsides are the lifetime commitment, needles, cost, and risks. Which I don't take lightly and it worries me a lot. And is the only reason I haven't just jumped on this years ago. And then I see success stories of men that are dialed in and stable for years and loving their body changes.

I have only talked to a few people in person, the rest online. But it makes me ask "Do I wait until I am 50 or 60 before I try? Or take advantage in my 40's and enjoy the benefits for the rest of my TRT life?" Of course like plastic surgery and other areas, I could also be the hell story.

[tbody66]

I'm a fan of starting sooner than 50 or 60, but it appears that caloric intake is going to be your biggest enemy. My levels were at 50 when I was put on. Without pics and specifics of diet and exact training I can't do much more than that.

[Bio-Active]

That is called not very high? Am I missing something? I thought 800-1200 was the high end of the spectrum. And I have only found 1 doctor that will go up to 1200 but will likely try to keep me in the 900-1000 range.

So based on my numbers and goals, do you still think I can reach a body composition in your photo with only about 400 natural levels? Before I start really asking for more help to find a Phoenix Dr, I am trying to see if people think boosting from 400 natural to 800-1200 on TRT will have realistic expectations to gain muscle and lose fat if I eat enough and keep up with my training and recovery lifestyle.

So far a few people here feel I shouldn't consider a lifetime of TRT when my natural levels are around 400. Yet I am near 40 and I am not getting younger. I feel my T level is as boosted as it will get via diet and exercise. Might be able to push another 50 naturally. But why wait until I am 50 or 60 and lower T levels to reach my body goals if I can start now.

When i said not very high i meant compared to running a cycle. Running a cycle i get my levels closer to 6,000 ng/dl

[bioshocked]

When i said not very high i meant compared to running a cycle. Running a cycle i get my levels closer to 6,000 ng/dl

wow. That sounds insane. Of course I know nothing. But wow. So for you in general, do you maintain around 1200 and then cycle up to 6000 once a year? Not that I am looking to do the same thing. I am mostly considering up to 1200 year round if I do it at all and other factors.

[bioshocked]

I'm a fan of starting sooner than 50 or 60, but it appears that caloric intake is going to be your biggest enemy. My levels were at 50 when I was put on. Without pics and specifics of diet and exact training I can't do much more than that.

Unless more people comment, the limits people so far seem to start when their T was super low, but yet maintain higher than my low 400's. So I don't see how 400 is a decent number naturally when I want to build muscle. I share photos on another site. While I think it's against the rules to say other site names, is it considered OK to share my forum name via Private message here so that they can google and find the other site?

I agree with the calories. That will be a huge factor for me if I start a TRT lifestyle and want to gain any mass. My current low 400's with typically 5 says at the gym a week. I have been stuck around 175 for years. Even if it wasn't muscle gains, if I was eating enough, I would gain either fat or muscle no matter what my T levels. So yes. I really need to get the calories up. I can seek more help with that when the time comes. Hopefully soon.

[tbody66]

My understanding of the low side of the acceptable scale is at a range to get a sedentary lifestyle adult male off of the couch or not want to kill himself. For an active lifestyle or wanting to put on mass it needs to be at or over the top of the acceptable levels. I'm suggesting you do a cycle, just be prepared to eat to get the gains. I have worked with hundreds of people that changing the way they lifted, several with years of lifting experience, proved more results than any other single part of the program.

[bioshocked]

My understanding of the low side of the acceptable scale is at a range to get a sedentary lifestyle adult male off of the couch or not want to kill himself.

That is what I think as well. At 429 (last number) I feel just fine as a regular healthy adult. But not sure that is good enough to reach my goals of cutting fat and gaining more muscle.

For an active lifestyle or wanting to put on mass it needs to be at or over the top of the acceptable levels. I'm suggesting you do a cycle, just be prepared to eat to get the gains. I have worked with hundreds of people that changing the way they lifted, several with years of lifting experience, proved more results than any other single part of the program.

By cycle you mean a plan that I come off of and go natural again? And the last part of your comment, are you saying the way I lift is the most important part of all of it? I have tried so many different lifting methods as well. None seemed to have worked any better than others. I am open to hearing what you think I should try for lifting. As for food, in the past when I track it and get 3300+ cals for an extended time, I eventually gained a little weight, but I don't think it was muscle mass as I didn't get stronger and I felt like I had more fat around my midsection. This was over a 6 week period. Recovery was still poor as well. I tend to stay sore for days.

Still, I am willing to try natural gains for a while longer before throwing in the towel. I don't like needles or buying stuff I don't need. So if I am simply missing something, I would like to hear more. I have trained with several people in person. Still am. They get results, but somehow I don't.

[Bio-Active]

wow. That sounds insane. Of course I know nothing. But wow. So for you in general, do you maintain around 1200 and then cycle up to 6000 once a year? Not that I am looking to do the same thing. I am mostly considering up to 1200 year round if I do it at all and other factors.

one to two big cycles each year. I been at this a long time though and I am very in tune with my body and no during my cruise I keep my levels between 500-700 because that's were I feel the best

[bioshocked]

2 quick photos I took today. Arms to the side, resting state. Then a basic double bicep flex. Both are pretty crappy looking. But thought maybe people might want to see what I look like after nearly a decade of working out. I have pretty much looked exactly like this for years. If you go bad about 10+ years ago before I was doing anything physical and eating fast food constantly, I was 215 Lbs and fat with likely less muscle mass than I have now. I was that way between years 24-27 I think. In high school I was never heavy. I was 160-165 and thin/low fat and I ate a ton of crap. So that is some history.

Sick for Easter, sucks. I was hoping to prep meals this weekend, but looks like I won't be going to the gym for at least part of this week.

[Proximal]

Bioshocked, I've glanced at all of the above and understand where you are coming from. In my teens, 20's, 30's and into my 40's I killed myself in the gym, ate clean, tried different routines/forms of training, diets, etc. yet, never made the gains / saw the results I desired.

I am currently 57. Six months ago I started on TRT - since that time, I've gained 13 pounds of muscle and have dropped from 16% to 13% body fat (this is determined through underwater weighing). My wife of 30 years tells me what I sometimes cannot believe, that is that my physique is the best it's been ever. BTW, I still eat clean, but now take in more calories than I've taken in since I've been a teenager. Oh, and I'm sure I'll be roasted for this one, I absolutely refuse to eliminate my wine, which is about 1 - 2 bottles per night.

I inject .75 mg of T, 2x per week.

This is a life commitment though and one which I gladly will continue. There are costs involved and ancillary things to consider, it all adds up.