Decided to go down this road. Soreness after pinning, suggestions?

[bioshocked]

I did a search for sore and soreness, but got a lot of results for soreness after workouts. Which I do get sore after workouts, but my question is about soreness from injections. I have now done 2 doses of 200mg of Test C, one dose per week. Intramuscular injection with 1.5" needle. The first time I didn't even feel the needle in my right glute and only had slight soreness in my glute during the 24-48 hours after. I did some cardio and leg training the day of pinning. After after. My 2nd dose, I did the left glute. Also early in the morning and a similar cardio and leg training day along with shoulders. Though I did more quads that the week before. This time I did feel the needing during injection, but only slightly. But the soreness is really strong this time at the 24 hour mark. Will see how it goes tomorrow and Monday.

is soreness at the injection area just part of intramuscular injections? I will not be switching to subcutaneous injections during my first 10 weeks as I already have the needles. The only suggestions I have read so far is to warm the oil, which I live in a hot place where the oil is usually 76-78F already. And some say not to message the injection area afterwards. Right now I follow the video instructions from this site on IM injections. Would prefer not to have a sore glute everyweek like this. Then again my muscles are always sore from my workouts for years. So it's nothing new.

Any other suggestions to reduce or eliminate soreness from IM injections without heating the oil?

[InternalFire]

Test mix could be just poor quality as in high % of BB and BA, best oils usually have very very minute % of these in the mix, thus harder to produce such compound, takes longer, and in result cost more hence its usually not a popular choice of UGL's to stock, but some do sometimes... lots people brew themselves knowing how-to and what exactly needs to be done to have best gear % and least pip.

I assume you already took precautions like:
take a really hot long shower/bath before injection
relax muscle and stretch the skin surface before pining
heat oil in warm water for a while prior drawing
injecting real slow, like take about a minute or so for 1cc, as fast injections would make it more painful after.

I also heard folks do that just before bed after all that^

Hope it helps

[bioshocked]

Test mix could be just poor quality as in high % of BB and BA, best oils usually have very very minute % of these in the mix, thus harder to produce such compound, takes longer, and in result cost more hence its usually not a popular choice of UGL's to stock, but some do sometimes... lots people brew themselves knowing how-to and what exactly needs to be done to have best gear % and least pip.

I assume you already took precautions like:
take a really hot long shower/bath before injection
relax muscle and stretch the skin surface before pining
heat oil in warm water for a while prior drawing
injecting real slow, like take about a minute or so for 1cc, as fast injections would make it more painful after.

I also heard folks do that just before bed after all that^

Hope it helps

I think the shower might be a big part here. After the post I was thinking about the 2 doses and what might have been different. Realized that I had taken a shower for the first dose, but didn't for the 2nd dose. Injected slowly as mentioned in the video at this site. The Test Cypionate is from a highly rated compound pharmacist locally. And the first dose had very little soreness.

When you say stretch the skin before injecting; are you talking about Z-tracking?

I am going to try muscle stretching and hot shower the next time to see how it goes. That sounds like the main difference for the 2 times I have pinned so far. Thanks.

[InternalFire]

I mean just relax the muscle as much as possible and think away if necessary so you dont twitch the area or flex it (some people are just over paranoid with needles), and try stretching only the surface skin right before you insert the needle, and yea that hot shower/bath thing makes sense - muscles relax the most after hot shower, so things like this add up and make huge difference at the end of it all.

Good luck

[bioshocked]

Pinned the right side again, since I am alternating. And did a hot shower and stretching before pinning and I didn't have any soreness unless I would press hard on the area during the 48 hours following the IM injection. So I will keep doing that and see how it goes on the left side next week. But if I can keep replicating that, I will be in good shape. Could still see the injection needle dots from the last 2 injections. Will the visible needle locations ever go away? Once a week is 26 injections per side. That could look like a lot of dots in just 1 year.

I know people say to add more injection locations, but even if I add 3 more locations, 6 when you include both sides, a few years and that adds up too. I am using a 25g 1.5" needle for injections. I heard some people going as thin as 30g but then I worry about the needle breaking/bending and of course it seems it would take forever to inject with oil Text C. if you can even inject oil via a 30g needle.

[InternalFire]

if the oil is real warmed up it should be easier to inject trough thinner needle, but its all experimental, never try - never know.

Get yourself 30g needle, heat up the oil well before drawing and do it all in well heated bathroom etc right after hot shower so temperature doesnt get to drop in the oil much if at all prior injecting. Like I said - its experimental, never try never know.
For the skin scars from needles it should heal before you know it but you can always resort to some skin-care creams that heals scars. Actually thing that crossed my mind just now - you can use cocoa-butter, my wife used it with great success from pregnancy stretch-marks.

[Youthful55guy]

Are you sure it's 100% T-cyp? I find that I only get soreness with blended T esters that contain some T-Prop.

Also, have you considered lowering the dose and injecting more frequently? I use a blended T with about 90% T-Cyp and 10% T-Prop. With weekly injections I had some soreness. With every 3 day injections (0.3 mL), I have some (but acceptable) soreness. Going to daily injections (0.1 mL), I have absolutely no soreness. The great thing about more frequent injections is that the smaller volume makes it feasible to use an insulin syringe. I use a 1 cc insulin syringe with a 28G 1/2 inch needle. It only takes about a minute to draw up 0.3 mL and is painless to inject into the thigh.

With daily injections, I still pull up 0.3 mL (3 day supply) but only inject 0.1 mL per day. I find that if I am careful to thoroughly disinfect the injection site with alcohol, swab down the needle and hub with alcohol after the injection, and then recap the needle, there is minimal chance of infection. I've been doing this for about a year. i store the partially used syringe in my desk drawer at room temperature.

[2Sox]

I'd say make the very small investment in insulin needles and start pinning SQ a few times a week. Then you wouldn't have to break your brain about all this other stuff. I use a 29gauge, 1/2inch needle every day. The only time I have pain is when I inject too fast. Learned that early. So what, you already bought the other needles? Most of us here have so much stuff left over from mistakes we've made. You want comfort and ease, don't you? I'd recommend you do what will give it to you.

[Proximal]

^^^^^^ Very much agree - piece of cake! Aside from the pinning issues, how are you liking your decision to live the TRT life?

[bioshocked]

Update, i am doing well with the IM injections of 200mg once per week now that I take a hot shower and do a little moving around before injecting. And also warming the oil in warm water before drawing. (vial in ziplock bag in warm water)

For now I will stick with this for the remainder of my 10 week of doses. To keep this thread on topic, I just wanted to discuss options and opinions related to soreness from IM injections. And while it's just part of the territory of IM injections, it does seem to be helping to use the suggestions here. Thanks.

[bioshocked]

...Aside from the pinning issues, how are you liking your decision to live the TRT life?

Well, just did my 4th injection, 3 weeks of T-Cyp in my system. So far I don't feel any difference and the only thing that has changed is my face has more oils than before. But washing my face gently in the morning, post workout, and before bed; has helped a lot. Patting dry to make sure I don't remove too much oil each wash. I was hoping to notice some difference in feeling, recovery, etc after 3 weeks. But I guess it will just take more time. My original plan was to see how it was after 3 months. But since my prescription is for 10 x 200mg doses = 10 weeks. And my follow up blood work and appointment is at 8 weeks of being on TRT; that means I will only have been on it for 8 weeks which is far too soon to really know what I think. So I will have to do at least a 2nd vial. Which should be put on TRT for a total of 4 months. Will be interesting to see my blood work at 8 weeks to see what adjustments are needed.

I really feared the needle and still don't think I can do it myself; but the wife does a great job and I don't feel anything so that has been a huge relief. So now I am back to the risk/reward ratio to see if this is something I plan on doing long term. So far I haven't had any rewards so the ratio sucks right now. lol.

[LeeSin1]

I'd say make the very small investment in insulin needles and start pinning SQ a few times a week. Then you wouldn't have to break your brain about all this other stuff. I use a 29gauge, 1/2inch needle every day. The only time I have pain is when I inject too fast. Learned that early. So what, you already bought the other needles? Most of us here have so much stuff left over from mistakes we've made. You want comfort and ease, don't you? I'd recommend you do what will give it to you.

In your opinion is SQ better? Any differences in mood, etc.? I've been jamming it into my shoulder, buttocks, or thighs for years now.

[Proximal]

Continued good luck to you bioshocked. Did you ask your doc about hcg, to help maintain your testicular function? I personally don't care for it for me @ 57, but I am experiencing some atrophy. When you do start,, which @ 200mg. you likely will, you can get acquainted with the subQ then. It will be nice doing the pinning yourself.

[2Sox]

Bioshocked,
IMO, you physician started you at way too high a dose at 200mg/week. This usually causes issues with raised estradiol levels - especially if you are injecting once per week. Be warned.

LeeSin1,
IMO, SQ is much easier than IM. No difference whatsoever except that it is absorbed into your bloodstream at a slower rate which is to believed to be more natural. That's why many do it two or more times a week. As I said, I do low dose daily with hCG in the same syringe.

[bioshocked]

Continued good luck to you bioshocked. Did you ask your doc about hcg, to help maintain your testicular function? I personally don't care for it for me @ 57, but I am experiencing some atrophy. When you do start,, which @ 200mg. you likely will, you can get acquainted with the subQ then. It will be nice doing the pinning yourself.

Thanks, we will see how it all goes. I was told she would like to start me on hCG around the 3 month mark to keep my natural production going. For now I will stick with the current plan and process and see what needs to be adjusted. I would also like to start donating blood but I want to see how my RBC changes first.

[bioshocked]

Bioshocked,
IMO, you physician started you at way too high a dose at 200mg/week. This usually causes issues with raised estradiol levels - especially if you are injecting once per week. Be warned.
...

Yes, that is what several people have said so far. As such, I will be watching for symptoms closely and it will be on my mind during the next visit for the first round of adjustments. Unless something feels wrong during the next 4 weeks, I will just wait until my first blood work since being on TRT around the 8 week mark and my visit to go over the results to see what adjustments are needed.

I have seen several people also prefer SQ vs IM injections along with 2+ times a week for the dosing. I am not here to debate the pros and cons. But for me, if I can control possible issues like E3 levels, etc while doing 1x week IM shots with Test C, I would prefer that at this moment. Though that can also change soon as well. Since hCG would require daily shots, I might just change my Test dosing and method as well once I am doing hCG.

I am going to do a search here on HGH, but any good links to point me to? Or things I should research? Seems so many people want HGH, but I also hear it is very expensive and can be difficult to manage side effects, etc.

[InternalFire]

good HCG dosing value is known to be @ 250iu every 3.5 days, or more frequently (which will raise the net amount of HCG a week used)if you feel any benefit over more than 500iu/wk. And some more than 750iu/wk of HCG may put you on risk desensitising your gonads/making you sterile, so keep that in mind.
HCG does not require daily administration unless you chose so. I would recommend taking HCG twice a week along with your test twice a week, but then again, Im not a doctor or someone who looks after your health so please, take the information, analyze it and study it well before taking any choice of action. Its your body, your temple, so treat it like one, it aint a wood-shed

[2Sox]

Yes, that is what several people have said so far. As such, I will be watching for symptoms closely and it will be on my mind during the next visit for the first round of adjustments. Unless something feels wrong during the next 4 weeks, I will just wait until my first blood work since being on TRT around the 8 week mark and my visit to go over the results to see what adjustments are needed.

I have seen several people also prefer SQ vs IM injections along with 2+ times a week for the dosing. I am not here to debate the pros and cons. But for me, if I can control possible issues like E3 levels, etc while doing 1x week IM shots with Test C, I would prefer that at this moment. Though that can also change soon as well. Since hCG would require daily shots, I might just change my Test dosing and method as well once I am doing hCG.

I am going to do a search here on HGH, but any good links to point me to? Or things I should research? Seems so many people want HGH, but I also hear it is very expensive and can be difficult to manage side effects, etc.

I'll attempt to address your comments that I have bolded above. If something "feels wrong", you're already in the woods and the condition is more difficult to address. "If you can control" is a big IF. What protocol do you plan on using to control things? What you want is to be educated about your body before things turn to shit. So I humbly disagree with your approach.

Listening to other's opinions, keeping an open mind, and debating the pros and cons of any issue here, is an important part of this forum. By cutting yourself off from a debate on any subject is doing a disservice to yourself, IMO.

As has already been pointed out, it is not necessary to dose hCG daily. Each individual makes that call.

You just started on TRT and you are already thinking about HGH? Do I have this right? If so, why do you want to do HGH? What is your purpose? Are you aware that straight HGH dosing shuts down your own body's production of this hormone and you must continue it indefinitely. Of course you can stop but then you'll crash for several weeks and you don't know how and if your pituitary will recover. I'd recommend you do your homework on this before you go down this road.

Some men do GHRPs - growth hormone releasing peptides - which stimulate the pituitary to release more GH. This is a more conservative and safer route. But again, what is your purpose? From my own personal experience, it's usually pure vanity. I've been there and I know.

By the way, no one here is going to give you a link for HGH. From my knowledge, UG HGH is invariably bunk.

[bioshocked]

I'll attempt to address your comments that I have bolded above. If something "feels wrong", you're already in the woods and the condition is more difficult to address. "If you can control" is a big IF. What protocol do you plan on using to control things? What you want is to be educated about your body before things turn to shit. So I humbly disagree with your approach.

Listening to other's opinions, keeping an open mind, and debating the pros and cons of any issue here, is an important part of this forum. By cutting yourself off from a debate on any subject is doing a disservice to yourself, IMO.

As has already been pointed out, it is not necessary to dose hCG daily. Each individual makes that call.

You just started on TRT and you are already thinking about HGH? Do I have this right? If so, why do you want to do HGH? What is your purpose? Are you aware that straight HGH dosing shuts down your own body's production of this hormone and you must continue it indefinitely. Of course you can stop but then you'll crash for several weeks and you don't know how and if your pituitary will recover. I'd recommend you do your homework on this before you go down this road.

Some men do GHRPs - growth hormone releasing peptides - which stimulate the pituitary to release more GH. This is a more conservative and safer route. But again, what is your purpose? From my own personal experience, it's usually pure vanity. I've been there and I know.

By the way, no one here is going to give you a link for HGH. From my knowledge, UG HGH is invariably bunk.

I feel I might have communicated improperly. The forum and research certainly is the place to debate pros and cons. But as I don't know anything, I don't have anything to debate as a pro or con. So I don't see the point of feeling like I am in a debate.

As for HGH, it is only on my mind because I hear people talking about it all the time. Where to get it, how much, etc. With so much talk, it peaks my curiosity. That doesn't mean I am going to do it myself. I am simply in the research stage when it comes to HGH.

hCG. I have already been told by my doctor that they want to start me on hCG around 3 months to keep natural production going. That is my only info on hCG. I don't have any opinions for debate with hCG either.

Now as for managing side effects. That term "side effects" is something thing I using loosely here. Side effects is usually something that is a noticeable symptom, generally visible or you can easily feel. But I mean a broader sense. Such as blood work numbers being out of line when I may not have any symptoms yet. All medication is a risk/rewards balance. TRT even more so from what I have read and been told. Without seeing how the Test C affects me, changes can't be made. And yes, by the time I feel or notice something wrong, the damage/issue is already present. But I have only been on Test C for 3 weeks and do not think my 200mg is so far out of wack that I need to rush out and get blood work this week "before it's too late".

I feel the first 6 months is pretty critical and that the perfect routine is likely not going to happen on the first try. So I do expect changes to the TRT plan once I reach my first 8 weeks. I will then have my first blood work since starting T and we will go from there. I don't think that is an unreasonable approach. The only other approach seems to simple adjust sooner. But I think 8 weeks is an acceptable amount of time. Based on how that goes we can decide if we want to review blood work at 4 weeks next time or some other time period.

And then your ending comment on HGH. Again, I know nothing about it. Only the buzz from others at the gym and on forums. So basically there is no need to look into HGH? For me, if there is no bodybuilding benefit then I have zero interest as I don't feel I have any ailments to cure. And given that I also hear it's super expensive and hard to manage, it doesn't sound worth it. But I am curious why everyone is talking about it.

Hopefully that makes my previous comments more clear. Again, I am not looking to debate because I don't know enough to participate. Not that I don't think debate is a good thing. Though often on forums a good debate is ruined by some who do not bring actual knowledge to the conversation.

With this extra info, do you have a quick outline on how you would go about starting TRT and management? I don't need dosing numbers as that is obvious different per person. But do you have a preference on blood work frequency and how often to adjust? The general info I have gathered so far on that topic is that when starting you check and adjust more frequently than when you feel you have found the right numbers. After that it seems every 6 months for checking and adjusting. Unless it gets way out of line and then more frequently again.

[2Sox]

I feel I might have communicated improperly. The forum and research certainly is the place to debate pros and cons. But as I don't know anything, I don't have anything to debate as a pro or con. So I don't see the point of feeling like I am in a debate.

It's good that you have the humility to admit it. And please let's not debate the word debate.

As for HGH, it is only on my mind because I hear people talking about it all the time. Where to get it, how much, etc. With so much talk, it peaks my curiosity. That doesn't mean I am going to do it myself. I am simply in the research stage when it comes to HGH.

Good to do your homework. Lot's of guys like the ones you are talking to at the gym about this, did NOT do it, and as a result hurt their bodies permanently. Many like these men learned their lessons and are now on this forum being useful to others, before they get into trouble themselves.

hCG. I have already been told by my doctor that they want to start me on hCG around 3 months to keep natural production going. That is my only info on hCG. I don't have any opinions for debate with hCG either.

Your balls are already shrinking and the rest of you body is starving for an LH analog - hCG. Read the sticky at the top of the forum. There are LH receptors all over your body. And if you want orgasms that are so weak you might miss them, along with no ejaculate, just don't take any hCG.

Now as for managing side effects. That term "side effects" is something thing I using loosely here. Side effects is usually something that is a noticeable symptom, generally visible or you can easily feel. But I mean a broader sense. Such as blood work numbers being out of line when I may not have any symptoms yet. All medication is a risk/rewards balance. TRT even more so from what I have read and been told. Without seeing how the Test C affects me, changes can't be made. And yes, by the time I feel or notice something wrong, the damage/issue is already present. But I have only been on Test C for 3 weeks and do not think my 200mg is so far out of wack that I need to rush out and get blood work this week "before it's too late".

What you think and what is reality may be very far apart. There are a few men on this forum who take larger doses of T such as 200mg/week. But it took them a very long time to arrive at that dose. The majority of men do just fine at around 100mg/week. Any doctor who begins a person on 200mg/week, does not write for hCG, and does not test for estradiol - is irresponsible in my opinion - and in the opinion of many others, I might add.


I feel the first 6 months is pretty critical and that the perfect routine is likely not going to happen on the first try. So I do expect changes to the TRT plan once I reach my first 8 weeks. I will then have my first blood work since starting T and we will go from there. I don't think that is an unreasonable approach. The only other approach seems to simple adjust sooner. But I think 8 weeks is an acceptable amount of time. Based on how that goes we can decide if we want to review blood work at 4 weeks next time or some other time period.

And then your ending comment on HGH. Again, I know nothing about it. Only the buzz from others at the gym and on forums. So basically there is no need to look into HGH? For me, if there is no bodybuilding benefit then I have zero interest as I don't feel I have any ailments to cure. And given that I also hear it's super expensive and hard to manage, it doesn't sound worth it. But I am curious why everyone is talking about it.

Hopefully that makes my previous comments more clear. Again, I am not looking to debate because I don't know enough to participate. Not that I don't think debate is a good thing. Though often on forums a good debate is ruined by some who do not bring actual knowledge to the conversation.

With this extra info, do you have a quick outline on how you would go about starting TRT and management? I don't need dosing numbers as that is obvious different per person. But do you have a preference on blood work frequency and how often to adjust? The general info I have gathered so far on that topic is that when starting you check and adjust more frequently than when you feel you have found the right numbers. After that it seems every 6 months for checking and adjusting. Unless it gets way out of line and then more frequently again.

It seems from what you have expressed previously, I get the impression that you're going to do whatever you want to do ,no matter what advice you're given here. But if you are sincere and want a "quick outline" here it is. And don't tell us you don't want numbers. Here, there is no advice without numbers - precisely because everyone is different.

- Immediately drop your dose to 100mg/week. (No, it won't hurt you. In fact you'll be safer if you did.)
- Buy a box of 29 gauge, 1/2 inch insulin needles. Easy Touch is an economical brand.
- Divide your dose into at least 2 injections. Inject SQ
- Get a script for hCG and start immediately. 500iu/week is a good place to start. Divide it into two injections.
- For the first year of TRT, get your bloods done every 4-6 weeks. After that every 8 weeks is okay.

Easy, peezy.

[InternalFire]

- Immediately drop your dose to 100mg/week. (No, it won't hurt you. In fact you'll be safer if you did.)
- Buy a box of 29 gauge, 1/2 inch insulin needles. Easy Touch is an economical brand.
- Divide your dose into at least 2 injections. Inject SQ
- Get a script for hCG and start immediately. 500iu/week is a good place to start. Divide it into two injections.
- For the first year of TRT, get your bloods done every 4-6 weeks. After that every 8 weeks is okay.

Easy, peezy.

Im no guru, no expert, no real life experience, just keep on packing knowledge, and when I read something like this, I know its gold-worth info, I have went trough this info too many times trough too many serious places talking about it.

[bioshocked]

It seems from what you have expressed previously, I get the impression that you're going to do whatever you want to do ,no matter what advice you're given here. But if you are sincere and want a "quick outline" here it is. And don't tell us you don't want numbers. Here, there is no advice without numbers - precisely because everyone is different.

- Immediately drop your dose to 100mg/week. (No, it won't hurt you. In fact you'll be safer if you did.)
- Buy a box of 29 gauge, 1/2 inch insulin needles. Easy Touch is an economical brand.
- Divide your dose into at least 2 injections. Inject SQ
- Get a script for hCG and start immediately. 500iu/week is a good place to start. Divide it into two injections.
- For the first year of TRT, get your bloods done every 4-6 weeks. After that every 8 weeks is okay.

Easy, peezy.

I was just saying to not include numbers specific to my care as that isn't the advice I am looking for. I have decided to give my doctor a chance at my care and until I feel otherwise, that still stands. We all do what we want, it's part of our human ability to make choices. As for advice given by people, I certainly welcome it. But accepting advice doesn't have to lead to immediate action on my part. People also have different opinions on this forum and any forum. I can't accept everyone's advice so it eventually comes to choosing. I am not sure why you say you want to give numbers and then say it's because everyone is different. Sounds confusing to me.

I understand the first 4 items you listed. And that may be where I end up. As for the blood work, 4-6 weeks for a whole year? And then every 8 weeks after that? wow, that sure seems expensive. This is all out of pocket for me. So while I would love to say that my health is more important than money, I still have to pay bills. And part of this whole thing is to see if I even stay on TRT at all. I was first only going to do a 3 month "trial", but I think I need to give it at least a year to see if this is what I want to do long term. Not only to see if I get the benefits I am looking for, but to also see if I can afford this long term. I really don't want to pay $1000 a year in blood work. Is that pretty normal around here? Doing full blood work 6 to 12 times a year? I was figuring around 4 to 6 times the first year and then more like 2 to 4 times a year after that.

From your items it looks like you suggest 2 SQ shots a week of both Test C and hCG. Do you combine them in the same syringe? Do you draw the hCG first and then the Test C? same draw needle? Does the oil of Test C affect the hCG when combined? If not combined do you inject in completely different areas? And on the same days? I do Test C in the morning, but do you do hCG before bed?

As for specific numbers like 100mg a week of T. What range of Free and Total T do you like to see on TRT plans? And based on those numbers; isn't the dose then based on what it takes to keep a person in that range?

I also read that people have different reasons for being on a TRT plan in the first place. Mine are purely bodybuilding reasons and I don't know if that is generally frowned upon here or not. Which is something I have discussed in my other thread of whether I should even start down the road of TRT.

[2Sox]

I also read that people have different reasons for being on a TRT plan in the first place. Mine are purely bodybuilding reasons and I don't know if that is generally frowned upon here or not. Which is something I have discussed in my other thread of whether I should even start down the road of TRT.

It rather apparent you like debating. I'll not get into one with you. You seem to be a very uninformed young man who has made a rather poor decision. TRT is not for bodybuilding. One does not go on a TRT "trial". TRT is for for men who are hypogonadal - and it's for life. If you are interested in bodybuilding, go to that forum and ask your questions there.

[bioshocked]

It rather apparent you like debating. I'll not get into one with you. You seem to be a very uninformed young man who has made a rather poor decision. TRT is not for bodybuilding. One does not go on a TRT "trial". TRT is for for men who are hypogonadal - and it's for life. If you are interested in bodybuilding, go to that forum and ask your questions there.

lol. k. I am laughing at the debate part of your comment. lol. I didn't know I was debating. As I don't have a "side" or any knowledge, I am not sure what I am debating as you say I am. I am hypogonadal. I just don't care about using TRT to improve those issues as I don't have any symptoms that I haven't learned to live with over the last 10 years. But my ability to gain muscle and change body composition is a factor for me and I do know people who have had great success overcoming that by a simple TRT plan to get in the high range of normal, between 800-1200 total T. I am sure that there are also plenty of people that it doesn't help. But I do know it's possible as I have seen the results myself in person. I would like to see if I respond in a similar way. Yes, I am new to all of this, which is why I joined the forum in the first place so I could participate in conversations rather than just search and read. As for the other parts of this forum, the non-TRT sections just talk about cycling which I can't legally do where I am. So getting my levels to the 1200 range are about the best I can do. And as I just mentioned, that is my goal based on others I have talked to in person with success on TRT to maintain the high end of the lab ranges.

And yes, this forum and all my research has made it perfectly clear that TRT is for life. I have also been told that the hCG is to help keep my natural (crappy) T production going in case I don't stay on a TRT plan. It's possible it gets worse, but that risk was already happening anyways. And I don't care about going sterile, so that isn't a concern. I decided the risk is low enough for me to "trial" TRT. The longer I am on it, especially without hCG, the more risk there is to wrecking my natural production. I decided the risk is worth it. Now I might find out later that if I do drop it that I don't recover my crappy production and it's even worse. In which case I might have to go back on it out of need versus desire. Again, a risk I factored before I started. My decision to try this was at least 1 year in the making with heavy research; with a decade of being on my mind and trying everything else.

Thank you for the comments and input. I do take all of this into account and make my own notes from all of it from everyone. Based on all of it and my doctor, I will make choices. I think that is a pretty good way to do it at this point.

I don't know if anyone else on this forum, any section, is using TRT for bodybuilding reasons. But I know people outside of this forum that use it for that reason with great results. I would love to find others that use it with success as well. So far it sounds like this forum is broken down into 2 types. Bodybuilding, that use cycling methods. And hypogonadal management using TRT for life. Often to treat significant symptoms where treatment brings relief and joy. Which is great. As my T levels having gotten better in 10 years, and likely will keep getting worse, I am not too confident that cycling, even if I could do it legally, is the best answer for me. I would have to cycling all the time with muscle retention being a huge issue during off cycle times. If there is a good place to talk with others with low natural T levels that have success with muscle gains using a TRT plan to maintain an 800-1200 range; I would love to find that area of this forum. I don't expect, and it's not my goal, to be like Jay Cutler. But being stuck at 175-180 Lbs for 10 years with no body composition changes no matter what I do, is depressing. So it was time to try something that I hadn't tried yet.

[2Sox]

I'm done.

[Proximal]

Don't sweat it Bio, everything will work out. I respect & agree with the fact that you are giving your M.D. a chance with their protocol and it appears you understand the advice from above, so that's a win, win scenario from my perspective.

Regarding how many members use the TRT exclusively for "bodybuilding" purposes, I actually cannot recall seeing any posts. This is just my quick and possibly naive perspective (I've only been a member for a short time) I'm thinking the TRT guys that are putting on more notable muscle are blasting occasionally or regularly. So again this might be inaccurate on my part - but add a third category to the two you listed in your last post: pure TRT, Cycle & PCT, and cruise & blast (TRT with occasional cycles).

And I get where you're coming from with the hcg - hell I haven't used it since I've been on TRT, but I think I am going to try, because for a couple of months now I'm noticing a decrease in semen (I know, more information than you and everyone else needed - LOL).

But the blood work is definitely something you need to factor in & yes it is costly.

So enjoy the TRT ride !

[bioshocked]

Thanks. I didn't mean for this thread to derail. I got some quick helpful info on soreness from IM injections and I think that is under control for now. Might switch to SQ injections sooner than later. At least to try. Anyways. I will start a new thread or use an existing thread to continue other discussions. This is all still very new to me and suspect it will be for a long time depending on how long I go down this road.

[InternalFire]

Bioshocked - no offence, but do you know or have you walked barefoot trough burning ashes or shattered glass? Its the analogy, only very few in a thousands can do that unprepared and walk away without an impact, because some way in there life they were long prepared for that. People here have done it all and wants for people like you, like me, and others who know no better to give a helping hand and only the best experience. The fact is, if you trusted your doc - you wouldn't be here or on any other forum, and regardless of what you do we all wish you only the best, but how about thinking for yourself? I can only suggest that you read about LH receptors in our bodies and about trt homeostasis, as jumping on 200mg of test its like going in a car from zero full stop to a 200mph in split of a second, now you can imagine what g force can do to frail human body in such case right? So be careful, take some time and educate yourself before you wreck yourself, its never too late.

Besides, however "crappy your natural test production" you think it may be, if right pathways are restarted you may be well surprised what your gonads can still do if its the case, but until you actually try you dont know, and hey wouldn't it be cool to naturally hover in around 600-800 test range till you hit your old days? Oh, and no pining, bloods, anti-cancer medicine required...? Stable steady mood and libido 24/7 for years..?

I for one am trying out Clomid mono-therapy to see what I can do to fix myself, if it wont work, I will at least know that I have tried, but I am not jumping 0 to 200mph with my eyes closed as it took time but it brought me know-how that however sweet the apple may seem, it has its own costs.

Be careful, what you're doing now, its no Trial, and if you've been told so you've been deceived - its more of a one way road with no option coming back.

Good luck man.

[2Sox]

Actually, I'm not done.

I was just saying to not include numbers specific to my care as that isn't the advice I am looking for. I am not sure why you say you want to give numbers and then say it's because everyone is different. Sounds confusing to me.

One of the greatest advances of civilization - actually makes for one - is the concept of measurement. You need numbers to make comparisons, among many other things. I'm sure you can grasp this idea.

I understand the first 4 items you listed. And that may be where I end up. As for the blood work, 4-6 weeks for a whole year? And then every 8 weeks after that? wow, that sure seems expensive. This is all out of pocket for me.

Hypogonadism (which took you 24 posts to make clear to us that you have) is a recognized medical condition, the treatment of which is covered by insurance in this country and most other advanced countries. It's too bad you must pay out of pocket. Why is that?

From your items it looks like you suggest 2 SQ shots a week of both Test C and hCG. I inject every day

Do you combine them in the same syringe? Yes.

Do you draw the hCG first and then the Test C? same draw needle? Yes and yes.

Does the oil of Test C affect the hCG when combined? No

If not combined do you inject in completely different areas? Yes

And on the same days? Pick your days.

I do Test C in the morning, but do you do hCG before bed? Pick your time.

As for specific numbers like 100mg a week of T. What range of Free and Total T do you like to see on TRT plans? One you feel most comfortable with. Ah, you see how much we need those numbers?


And based on those numbers; isn't the dose then based on what it takes to keep a person in that range? Brilliant (Those numbers again.)

I also read that people have different reasons for being on a TRT plan in the first place. Mine are purely bodybuilding reasons and I don't know if that is generally frowned upon here or not. Which is something I have discussed in my other thread of whether I should even start down the road of TRT.

FYI: You're already on the road.

Do you think vanity has gotten a great many people into trouble? A rhetorical question, of course.

Now, I'm done.

[bioshocked]

Thanks for the details 2Sox. I do appreciate it. For your insurance question of me. I have really crappy insurance. The deductible is so high that I simply won't reach it and the cash pricing is cheaper than the insurance pricing. Trust me, I ask. I have been able to get some things and some blood work a little cheaper with insurance. But while the Test C is covered by my insuance, the pricing was terrible with the insurance, so I just pay cash. FYI, I have an HSA plan that sucks. I get it for free from work. Otherwise I have to pay a ton per paycheck for better insurance. This route is actually cheaper for me.

As for the "numbers", I am just trying to say that X mg of Test C per week can and often does give each person a different Total and Free T level end result. So if the goal is 800 total T and both people have the same natural levels, it is likely that it will take different amounts of Test C for each person to reach the same final numbers. I didn't mean anything else by my "no numbers" comments.

[Proximal]

Actually, I'm not done. Now, I'm done.

And I'm confused . . .

[2Sox]

And I'm confused . . .

You'll figure it out. (See post #25)

[2Sox]

Bioshocked,

Since body building is clearly one of your major goals and since vanity and body building go hand in hand, I'm pretty certain you'd be interested in the thread below. There is also a thread within this thread that you might want to explore.

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...-kill-you.html